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Asashio Review, A Better Understanding

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Yuzral has released his review of the Asashio. Its a much more even look at the ship. The game in the background isn't an easy 150K to 200K damage game, but 60K. Its really worth a watch if you're a paranoid Battleship captain or an overly eager destroyer captain with his money at the ready. Though other community contributors have talked about Asashio and even said a few of the same things Yuzral does, he does a far better job of highlighting the opposite side of this ship, the weaknesses it has. It does still give the ship credit where it is due but also doesn't give it credit beyond what is due.  Give it a look


 

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dahqXm610aY

Edited by Spieges
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The one thing he doesn't address is what type of game play it promotes for the person driving the Asashio, when you have 20 km torpedoes that you can safely launch from behind friendly cruisers and destroyers. That's directly at odds with the primary and most critical, match-winning role of stealthy destroyers, contesting caps - something the Asashio is weak at to begin with.

"But a good player will play the objectives anyways!"

Yes, a good player. How many players in this game is that? The majority are mediocre or below.

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4 minutes ago, Lert said:

The one thing he doesn't address is what type of game play it promotes for the person driving the Asashio, when you have 20 km torpedoes that you can safely launch from behind friendly cruisers and destroyers. That's directly at odds with the primary and most critical role of stealthy destroyers, contesting caps - something the Asashio is weak at to begin with.


Good point, he does discuss how Asashio is completely outclassed by all its competition and weak at getting into close range of other destroyers or cruisers. I'm just going to assume that perhaps a lot people will grasp the concept that its a far more passive boat. At least, I hope they will. He could have mentioned how late game, depending on the ship types left over, she would be great at capping against ships she can easily stay concealed from. 

Lert, on a side note, why dont you get into the Community Contributor program? You are insanely active and well versed. I'd love to see your reviews, as you're a supertester but unable to break NDA.

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7 minutes ago, Spieges said:

Lert, on a side note, why dont you get into the Community Contributor program? You are insanely active and well versed. I'd love to see your reviews, as you're a supertester but unable to break NDA.

That is exactly the issue, CC and ST NDA conflict. The CCs and STs fall under different management, get different access to test ships and have different NDA rules and lift dates. I used to be both until I was 'politely asked' to pick either ST or CC and I chose ST.

Several things contributed to that choice:

- I don't do youtube, so my reviews would be text-only, and quite honestly, I am nowhere near on the same level as LWM. This doesn't really motivate me to write reviews to begin with. I just don't have the brainwidth, skill and time to bring my reviews to the same level that she does.

- As ST I have access to far, far more than just the new ships - I get to test new maps, new game modes, new sound packages, new visuals, etc etc etc. Even with new ships, I get to drive them long before the CCs do, there's usually at least one round of testing before they go to CC hands on the live server, oftentimes more than that. I'm shallow as hell and didn't want to give that up.

- As ST I don't have the 'Produce content NOW' pressure on my that CCs do. From the CCs that I'm in regular touch with I regularly hear that this pressure turns often turns something that is supposed to be fun, into a chore. It's rare when LWM is without work pressure and able to just have fun, and even when she does play for fun, it's to unwind from work she recently got done with and to prepare herself for the next review.

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2 minutes ago, Lert said:

That is exactly the issue, CC and ST NDA conflict. The CCs and STs fall under different management, get different access to test ships and have different NDA rules and lift dates. I used to be both until I was 'politely asked' to pick either ST or CC and I chose ST.

Several things contributed to that choice:

- I don't do youtube, so my reviews would be text-only, and quite honestly, I am nowhere near on the same level as LWM. This doesn't really motivate me to write reviews to begin with. I just don't have the brainwidth, skill and time to bring my reviews to the same level that she does.

- As ST I have access to far, far more than just the new ships - I get to test new maps, new game modes, new sound packages, new visuals, etc etc etc. Even with new ships, I get to drive them long before the CCs do, there's usually at least one round of testing before they go to CC hands on the live server, oftentimes more than that. I'm shallow as hell and didn't want to give that up.

- As ST I don't have the 'Produce content NOW' pressure on my that CCs do. From the CCs that I'm in regular touch with I regularly hear that this pressure turns often turns something that is supposed to be fun, into a chore. It's rare when LWM is without work pressure and able to just have fun, and even when she does play for fun, it's to unwind from work she recently got done with and to prepare herself for the next review.

I did not know all of that. I completely understand though. I'll just look forward to your normal forum input after the NDA lifts.

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Many talk about a DDs role, but very much like the Khab, the Asashio does not have a 'normal' DD role. It has strengths and weaknesses and a good Captain will play to those areas to get the best out of it. People need to stop putting DD, CA, BB, CV in front of some ships and look at the ships themselves.

'But that type ship must do this', is something I don't think is the case with the Asashio, as it is obvious that ships 'role' is to kill BBs.

 

(Off topic, I just think this was the wrong route to go, instead of balancing the normal type of damage a DD can put out. It is turning it into a D-BB-D hybrid, but the type of BB that hides at the back (which is never good for the game or team)). :Smile_honoring:

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15 minutes ago, _WaveRider_ said:

Many talk about a DDs role, but very much like the Khab, the Asashio does not have a 'normal' DD role. It has strengths and weaknesses and a good Captain will play to those areas to get the best out of it. People need to stop putting DD, CA, BB, CV in front of some ships and look at the ships themselves.

'But that type ship must do this', is something I don't think is the case with the Asashio, as it is obvious that ships 'role' is to kill BBs.

 

(Off topic, I just think this was the wrong route to go, instead of balancing the normal type of damage a DD can put out. It is turning it into a D-BB-D hybrid, but the type of BB that hides at the back (which is never good for the game or team)). :Smile_honoring:

I agree. There are exceptions to the cookie cutter roles assigned to ships and this is sort of one of them. I say sort because it's ability to late game cap will be great depending on the ships it faces due to its high concealment. That, however, would be late game and situationally dependent.

 

I get a real kick out of the idea that this ship can basically do unto battleships what battleships can do to cruisers, engage at long range for massive damage with impunity. However, perhaps it could be tones back slightly on the damage. Honestly Though, it only does what other IJN destroyers, and pan Asians, already do. Just better.

My biggest fears are these:

1. People buying the ship that don't grasp how to use or simply cant.

2. The overreaction of the community to ships like these.

3. The communities inability to see that this ship could help with the passive META. The easiest way to deal with it is to simply not go it alone in a battleship and not park bow on.

 

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45 minutes ago, Lert said:

That is exactly the issue, CC and ST NDA conflict. The CCs and STs fall under different management, get different access to test ships and have different NDA rules and lift dates. I used to be both until I was 'politely asked' to pick either ST or CC and I chose ST.

Several things contributed to that choice:

- I don't do youtube, so my reviews would be text-only, and quite honestly, I am nowhere near on the same level as LWM. This doesn't really motivate me to write reviews to begin with. I just don't have the brainwidth, skill and time to bring my reviews to the same level that she does.

- As ST I have access to far, far more than just the new ships - I get to test new maps, new game modes, new sound packages, new visuals, etc etc etc. Even with new ships, I get to drive them long before the CCs do, there's usually at least one round of testing before they go to CC hands on the live server, oftentimes more than that. I'm shallow as hell and didn't want to give that up.

- As ST I don't have the 'Produce content NOW' pressure on my that CCs do. From the CCs that I'm in regular touch with I regularly hear that this pressure turns often turns something that is supposed to be fun, into a chore. It's rare when LWM is without work pressure and able to just have fun, and even when she does play for fun, it's to unwind from work she recently got done with and to prepare herself for the next review.

Interesting insight.

Another thought I've always wondered....why do you choose the NA forums and server over the EU?

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1 minute ago, Ace_04 said:

Another thought I've always wondered....why do you choose the NA forums and server over the EU?

I have no life that I'm aware of and am 'long term unemployed', to use a politically correct and polite term. I also started playing WoT before there was an NA and EU server, and because the majority of my platoon buddies were in the US, I stayed on the NA server when the split happened there.

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Every time I see the name of this ship, I have to look twice.

"Murder fish"...LOL!

I just might buy this one.

Edited by mohawkdriver

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45 minutes ago, mohawkdriver said:

Every time I see the name of this ship, I have to look twice.

"Murder fish"...LOL!

I just might buy this one.

Whenever I see the name I think......

 

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My personal concerns with Asashio are her glaring weaknesses, and her strength, those torps, are only a strength if the red team allows them to be. My overall concerns are with WG, for creating a ship like this, which will only make gameplay at higher tiers even more passive, because players don't actually understand what it is they're facing.. Playing a DD at higher tiers is already hard enough, ya know? I already dislike having to chase BB's around because they refuse to close, for the most part. Now I'll have to go further to do that, and I find that highly annoying.

 

From the opposing view, of a BB player, which I've played a ton of over the last few months, I'm not concerned with Asashio, I know what BB's and DD's can do, I know how to counter each class, so having her on the red team isn't going to change how I play a BB one bit. I will still go forward. I will still find you. I will very much so still blow your puny leetle deedee to the great fires of salt watery hell. Should I happen to be in a DD, rinse and repeat, same ending.

 

'Nother interesting fact: Most players who get Asashio will be, at best, average, they will have no way in which to make the ship truly work, so she'll be a dud for their team. Think on that, all ye who believe this ship is game breaking. It isn't. Not even close.

 

Each ship has it's own way of being played, how well it does depends entirely on the abilities of the driver to make it do what it was intended to do. It ain't the ship, it's the driver. You aren't outplaying, or being outplayed by, the ship. The ship just sits there and wonders where its Quad Vanilla Latte is.

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2 minutes ago, Th3KrimzonD3mon said:

Each ship has it's own way of being played, how well it does depends entirely on the abilities of the driver to make it do what it was intended to do. It ain't the ship, it's the driver. You aren't outplaying, or being outplayed by, the ship. The ship just sits there and wonders where its Quad Vanilla Latte is.

This still doesn't change the fact that Asashio (just like Khab and Conqueror) promotes a certain level of brain-dead gameplay that isn't healthy for the game nor particularly challenging for the player at the helm.

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12 minutes ago, Ace_04 said:

This still doesn't change the fact that Asashio (just like Khab and Conqueror) promotes a certain level of brain-dead gameplay that isn't healthy for the game nor particularly challenging for the player at the helm.

Ok, first, I already spoke about the brain dead gameplay and how it wasn't good. :) Second, what I meant overall with that was that people freak out over a ship due to what it *can* do, it virtually never occurs to them that the odds of the ship actually *doing* what it can do are extremely remote, due to brain dead players, and a total lack of understanding of the ship in question.

 

I havent looked at the lineups and thought I was screwed much, I wait and see how the ships are being played, then I determine if I'm screwed or not. I, however, am not the sum of the playerbase. Most see the ship(s), and instantly determine they're done for. That's very much not helping the green team, ya know?

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23 minutes ago, Ace_04 said:

This still doesn't change the fact that Asashio (just like Khab and Conqueror) promotes a certain level of brain-dead gameplay that isn't healthy for the game nor particularly challenging for the player at the helm.

Hey

I for one think that Asashio for me and my limited DD experience will be an interesting playstyle in that I enjoy hunting ships much more than grabbing caps.  This is because too many times I have gone after caps only to have absolutely no support from my team, too many times you get half way through a game and you find many BB's barely out of base, if at all, and your starting to see more and more of this from cruisers too.  Now something could be said about the Asashio's inability to attack cruisers and even DD's But I loathe camping BB's.  Even the Pan-Asian DD's have done little to curb the camping meta (higher tiers are the worst), all of the HE spamming BB's, so maybe this will help some if enough people try it.  I like the idea of being a lone hunter, searching for that BB camper and leave the cap gathering to people better than I am at it.  Maybe that's why the appeal of the German submarine hunting the oceans for prey is an interesting concept and for a time a valuable tool for the Germans.  Asashio isn't perfect but then no ship is; we have nothing that shoots fish, has concealment of a DD, maneuverable and fast shooting guns like a cruiser, nor the armor and AA protection of a BB wrapped into one neat little high speed, cloaked package.  Depending on any nerf's, I might just get the Asashio for a slightly different flavor and playstyle from the usual DD's.  You know for all of us dumb, average brain-dead players, myself included.  

 

Pete

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19 minutes ago, sasquatch_research said:

Hey

I for one think that Asashio for me and my limited DD experience will be an interesting playstyle in that I enjoy hunting ships much more than grabbing caps.  This is because too many times I have gone after caps only to have absolutely no support from my team, too many times you get half way through a game and you find many BB's barely out of base, if at all, and your starting to see more and more of this from cruisers too.  Now something could be said about the Asashio's inability to attack cruisers and even DD's But I loathe camping BB's.  Even the Pan-Asian DD's have done little to curb the camping meta (higher tiers are the worst), all of the HE spamming BB's, so maybe this will help some if enough people try it.  I like the idea of being a lone hunter, searching for that BB camper and leave the cap gathering to people better than I am at it.  Maybe that's why the appeal of the German submarine hunting the oceans for prey is an interesting concept and for a time a valuable tool for the Germans.  Asashio isn't perfect but then no ship is; we have nothing that shoots fish, has concealment of a DD, maneuverable and fast shooting guns like a cruiser, nor the armor and AA protection of a BB wrapped into one neat little high speed, cloaked package.  Depending on any nerf's, I might just get the Asashio for a slightly different flavor and playstyle from the usual DD's.  You know for all of us dumb, average brain-dead players, myself included.  

 

Pete

Pete, just to clarify, my intention is not to insult the player base with the "brain-dead" comments.  Those words are directed more at the ships I mentioned and their easy-mode gameplay that is somewhat counter-intuitive to the challenges their contemporaries face.

But if you think a ship like Asashio is going to help curb camping, I'm afraid it will only encourage it further.  Asashio is a poison nobody asked for.  Literally, every other DD in the game is more versatile and engaging.

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2 minutes ago, Ace_04 said:

Pete, just to clarify, my intention is not to insult the player base with the "brain-dead" comments.  Those words are directed more at the ships I mentioned and their easy-mode gameplay that is somewhat counter-intuitive to the challenges their contemporaries face.

But if you think a ship like Asashio is going to help curb camping, I'm afraid it will only encourage it further.  Asashio is a poison nobody asked for.  Literally, every other DD in the game is more versatile and engaging.

Hey

That's ok; because I make brain dead mistakes at times and I'm not afraid to admit that.  The problem with camping, which we both agree has gotten much worse, but we need to understand why it has gotten worse.  It seems to me that there is a tendency to not play the objective, not wanting to be part of the team, help the team, but rather be selfish and just farm damage.  Maybe people are too worried about their own win/loss ratio's instead of just winning the battle at hand.  It's tough for any DD to win (especially for someone like myself with limited experience) without the support of your team.  If the Asashio gets BB's moving from their comfort zone then I'm all for it.  It's kind of ironic that we have the Pan-asian DWT's created to counter BB's, we have AP bombs designed (let's be honest here) to hurt mostly German BB's (the most aggressive non-camping BB's in game), then created the stupid (IMHO) RN HE spamming BB's, all of which has helped to create this passive playstyle which is hurting the game.  Then there is this whole DD versus BB issue, where DD whined about BB being too strong but yet we have created a camping mess where BB's dont push in and support the DD going for a cap anymore.  Well which is it, do we want unsupporting camping BB's, or would be want aggressive BB's that are not afraid to push in a bully other ships?  I personally like and play the aggressive BB action, I also play supportive cruiser action and more recently the DD actions, although I am better at stalking ships than I am at getting and holding caps.  I just find the lack of cooperative, team related play getting annoying which is partly why I play more division, since at least you know someone has your back and you got theirs.

 

Pete

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I really don't understand why WG give this ship only 2 25mm AA machine gun....not that IJN AA is good anyway, but 2 25mm only ? just why

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An excellent video. Very thanks for sharing @Spieges. Yuzral has a great voice, very easy to listen to. A very clear and honest review.

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On 4/5/2018 at 12:30 PM, Ace_04 said:

This still doesn't change the fact that Asashio (just like Khab and Conqueror) promotes a certain level of brain-dead gameplay that isn't healthy for the game nor particularly challenging for the player at the helm.

I wouldnt call it brain dead, but easy mode like you said in your next post. In fact, I would contest this statement by saying brain dead game play has been the issue for this game since it began. Just think about this:

Battleships: Most armor, biggest guns, longest range, most health, and repair party just sit in the back and fire for immense amount of damage. However, they can take damage but park bow on/angled correctly and you're mostly good to go. That brain dead game play is what is causing the real issue in my mind. Dont get me wrong, its probably one of the best strategies in game but its hard to counter and easy to do.  So, WG introduces ships that can penetrate a bow with HE head on, long range sneaky torps that should encourage battleships to stay with their team mates, and AP bombs that counter turtle back armor.

I do see your point and agree in a way, its just that if you follow the evolution of brain dead game play you can see how it starts.

23 hours ago, Ace_04 said:

Pete, just to clarify, my intention is not to insult the player base with the "brain-dead" comments.  Those words are directed more at the ships I mentioned and their easy-mode gameplay that is somewhat counter-intuitive to the challenges their contemporaries face.

But if you think a ship like Asashio is going to help curb camping, I'm afraid it will only encourage it further.  Asashio is a poison nobody asked for.  Literally, every other DD in the game is more versatile and engaging.

Also, it will encourage camping but I dont think it was meant to. We already have campers and always have from the get go. Why? Torpedoes and HE/Fire damage. I think the intent was to encourage battleships to at least follow their team or remain close, as the easiest way to deal with these torpedoes are ships that can spot them but avoid their damage. Want to be a loner? Go for it but you'll get a wicked suprise if you're not lucky. Going to sail 2 to 5 KM behind your allies? Well they'll spot them for you without taking damage from them and you'll have time to react.

 

23 hours ago, sasquatch_research said:

Hey

That's ok; because I make brain dead mistakes at times and I'm not afraid to admit that.  The problem with camping, which we both agree has gotten much worse, but we need to understand why it has gotten worse.  It seems to me that there is a tendency to not play the objective, not wanting to be part of the team, help the team, but rather be selfish and just farm damage.  Maybe people are too worried about their own win/loss ratio's instead of just winning the battle at hand.  It's tough for any DD to win (especially for someone like myself with limited experience) without the support of your team.  If the Asashio gets BB's moving from their comfort zone then I'm all for it.  It's kind of ironic that we have the Pan-asian DWT's created to counter BB's, we have AP bombs designed (let's be honest here) to hurt mostly German BB's (the most aggressive non-camping BB's in game), then created the stupid (IMHO) RN HE spamming BB's, all of which has helped to create this passive playstyle which is hurting the game.  Then there is this whole DD versus BB issue, where DD whined about BB being too strong but yet we have created a camping mess where BB's dont push in and support the DD going for a cap anymore.  Well which is it, do we want unsupporting camping BB's, or would be want aggressive BB's that are not afraid to push in a bully other ships?  I personally like and play the aggressive BB action, I also play supportive cruiser action and more recently the DD actions, although I am better at stalking ships than I am at getting and holding caps.  I just find the lack of cooperative, team related play getting annoying which is partly why I play more division, since at least you know someone has your back and you got theirs.

 

Pete

I think battleships are the biggest problem in the game. They are meant to be these huge, intimidating, and powerful ships. They fill this role well but you need a counter to balance the game. However, that counter needs a counter like destroyers and radar. Also, countering bow on, park, and shoot play needs a counter, so why not British battleship HE. Playing solo in the back camping needs a counter, so long range hard to detect torpedoes are introduced and AP bombs. Yet, those things can be over powered because of the inability to balance the original problem well. I know I havent been pushing up in cruisers lately, because concealed battleships are able to drain my health or one shot me so easily. Thus, my destroyer teammates dont get effective support.

3 hours ago, WolfofWarship said:

An excellent video. Very thanks for sharing @Spieges. Yuzral has a great voice, very easy to listen to. A very clear and honest review.

You're welcome. I just really appreciated that he didnt cry "OP. NERF!" when he reviewed it like some others. I also appreciate his little history lessons on each ship.

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Hey

Well I agree with one thing about Asashio and it has to do with how it gets played itself;  if the Asashio driver sits near a cap or worse, near his own base and torps directly towards the enemy ships, then yes it could create further camping issue and would be a problem.  However, if the Asashio driver gets to a flank or behind the enemies forward position then it would be a strong deterrent to the camping meta by forcing them to move BUT it's all in how it get's played.  Personally I don't think the Asaship is going to be much of an impact simply because there won't be too many DD guys buying it to solely go BB/CV hunting.  Although I have seen my share of idiot DD guys who sail the entire map not doing anything to support the team, sail the edge of the map just so they could sink the carrier, bypassing many ships in the process.  

One thing I would like to see is a decent buff for IJN DD's to get much lower detection range on their torps.  Although I doubt we will see that anytime soon.

 

Pete

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Thank you all for the kind words.  That footage...is it too late to admit that (1) it was just what happened to be on tap at the time and (2) the main reason it wasn't a 150k+ murderfest was because the enemy BBs were on the other side of the map for most of the game?

I'd note that while standoff engagement is an option, the more effective Asashio drivers will handle her just like another IJN torp boat and get as close as possible to get multiple hits out of each salvo.  The extra range is handy for getting at targets inside a radar sweep and being able to lob an extra salvo or three when another destroyer would be far out of range, but rather like throwing BB shells at 25km+, it's not the most effective use of the weapon.

Although now I think about it, that last paragraph suggests that Asashio could be seen as more of a 'training wheels' torp boat, while Kagero and Harekaze trade off safety for flexibility and/or gunpower.  Hadn't considered it that way before.

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3 hours ago, Yuzral said:

Although now I think about it, that last paragraph suggests that Asashio could be seen as more of a 'training wheels' torp boat, while Kagero and Harekaze trade off safety for flexibility and/or gunpower.  Hadn't considered it that way before.

I'd say in terms of gun power, the Asashio is still better than Kagero simply because the better range.

other than that, i would agree kagero is indeed more flexible

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First, I think every Shima driver who says “I just can’t cap” and “I’ll flank the C cap” will buy this ship. So will everyone who “just couldn’t make Yugumo work.”

Second, Khabarovsk and Conqueror can be played well. They can win battles, although I would argue it’s difficult for the Khab sometimes. The problem is that it is easy to just farm damage - repairable damage - with those two instead of playing objectives, supporting the team, etc.  

Similarly, the Asashio has the potential to help win battles.  Destroying red BBs certainly can turn the tide. However, launching torps at 15 km rarely produces more than 1 or 2 strikes. Avoiding caps like the plague loses battles, I don’t care if you’re driving Shima, Kutuzov, or Conqueror.  I’ve taken multiple caps with all three in the past couple weeks when it was needed. 

I have over 1,000 battles in old Minekaze and the Kamikaze trio. Another 300+ in Yugumo. I know how to sneak in closer and make those torp launches really count. Will Asashio tend to be a feast or famine ship? Yes. Will I buy it immediately?  Yes. Will I discourage other players from sitting still in their BBs?  I sure hope so.  I may even discourage them from playing BBs altogether. 

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On 4/5/2018 at 9:13 AM, Lert said:

The one thing he doesn't address is what type of game play it promotes for the person driving the Asashio, when you have 20 km torpedoes that you can safely launch from behind friendly cruisers and destroyers. That's directly at odds with the primary and most critical, match-winning role of stealthy destroyers, contesting caps - something the Asashio is weak at to begin with.

"But a good player will play the objectives anyways!"

Yes, a good player. How many players in this game is that? The majority are mediocre or below.

Give me a break, the Destroyer that sits back and snipes like a noob potato in a Battleship will ruin the game is your response ?

Wargaming causes this mess by nerfing IJN Destroyer torpedoes long ago because the noob Battleships were crying.

Now years later with 5 Battleships per team camping and sniping at 15-20km, Wargaming decides to make a profit on the problem they deliberately created.

8 hours ago, Landing_Skipper said:

First, I think every Shima driver who says “I just can’t cap” and “I’ll flank the C cap” will buy this ship. So will everyone who “just couldn’t make Yugumo work.”

I have over 1,000 battles in old Minekaze and the Kamikaze trio. Another 300+ in Yugumo. I know how to sneak in closer and make those torp launches really count. Will Asashio tend to be a feast or famine ship? Yes. Will I buy it immediately?  Yes. Will I discourage other players from sitting still in their BBs?  I sure hope so.  I may even discourage them from playing BBs altogether. 

Since the IJN Destroyers were nerfed, they cannot fight gunboat or hybrid Destroyers for a cap, so they stealth torpedo whatever come into range.

Blame the game designer for the play style they created, not the players who learned to use the boat successfully.

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