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Ensign_Cthulhu

Advice wanted for Jianwei captain.

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He has just attained his sixth skill point. So far I have Priority Target, Last Stand.

Options considered:

1) Basic Firing Training. I cannot torp destroyers, so I may as well increase my ability to shoot them. This will do so.

2) Demolition Expert. Alternatively, should I (slightly) increase my chances of setting ships on fire?

3) Superintendent. Or should I increase the number of times I can hide in smoke and do so?

I find myself using guns a lot more than torpedoes, so Torpedo Armament Expertise is well to the bottom of my list.

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TAE is worth it IMO (the torps get much better and more usable after jianwei) , but I would go for SE first. That extra HP for gunboat dds is nice to have.

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I would recommend survivability expert.  You can really use the extra HP since you have to gun duel dds.  Definitely take SE over Superintendent.  If you want to go TAE for a torp build for future ships in the line that's fine too.  I would guess BFT is better than Demo Expert.

 

Personally I would say SE, but BFT or TAE are valid options depending on whether you intend to keep this captain in Jianwei (BFT) or progress him up the line (either).

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24 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

1) Basic Firing Training. I cannot torp destroyers, so I may as well increase my ability to shoot them. This will do so.

I used BFT on my John Wayne. You can't torp enemy DDs, but the gun power especially with BFT is pretty amazing. Can't say Superintendent is very useful at all. With premium consumables you already have 5 charges of smoke, never had problems with running out of weed. As far as DE is concerned, BFT is still better, because you will automatically increase your fires set per minute by firing more rapidly, but it will also help greatly against non-BB targets. Go for BFT.

5 minutes ago, mrh308 said:

Personally I would say SE

Yeah, or this ^

Edited by geser98

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So I did the math and BFT is definitely superior to DE at least until the Hsienyang and arguably even then.

The below table gives the expected fires per minute (rate of fire * # of guns * fire chance [as a decimal]) for the Jianwei and two other ships in the line which are representative of the other gun systems you will have.  The first number is stock, second with BFT only, and third with DE only.

Jianwei 3/3.33/3.75
Fushun 3.36/3.73/4.32
Hsienyang 3.63/4.04/5.09

So you are gaining about 1/2 a fire per minute using DE over BFT with the slower firing guns and 1 fire a minute with the US style guns.  So as long as your HE can damage the ship, BFT is vastly superior.  I still recommend SE but BFT looks like a strong option as well.

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14 minutes ago, mrh308 said:

So I did the math and BFT is definitely superior to DE at least until the Hsienyang and arguably even then.

There's even less bonus from DE if you account for BB hull fire chance reduction. So if we shoot at top hull of tier 5 BB fire numbers will be: 2.5 (stock), 2.75 (BFT), 3.13 (DE). So less than 0.4 fires/min, but your HE dpm goes up from 63750 to 70125 so you get almost to the level of T-22, but with much better shell velocity. Still wouldn't wrestle against Nicholas though.

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Thanks for the advice so far. Survivability Expert is noted, but I am prepared to prioritise dealing out damage over being able to take it (the rationale being that if I can kill, disable or drive off an enemy ship more quickly, I won't take the damage in the first place). On that basis, BFT seems like the best bet all round. I've heard people argue against AFT for destroyers because it increases the bloom distance and hampers your stealthiness, and is of no value if you're habitually engaging in short-range gunfights anyway, but the extra kilometre or so in range that it gives me would have come in handy a couple of times over the last few days. 

The next debate will be whether to go for DE after BFT or for Concealment Expert first. Thirteen points is a long way to grind.

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30 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

I've heard people argue against AFT for destroyers because it increases the bloom distance and hampers your stealthiness, and is of no value if you're habitually engaging in short-range gunfights anyway, but the extra kilometre or so in range that it gives me would have come in handy a couple of times over the last few days. 

Usefulness of AFT really depends on your shell velocity. On Jianwei and Fushun you could use it (but BFT is still better if you want to play objectives), from GM onward its a bit pointless. Really hard to hit anything at the max range, plus PA dds have excellent smokes, so it's easier to get close to your quarry.

Edited by geser98

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1 hour ago, geser98 said:

Really hard to hit anything at the max range, plus PA dds have excellent smokes, so it's easier to get close to your quarry.

Past 8-10km my main interest with destroyer guns is either starting fires with a bit of help from RNG, dropping stray shells on an enemy ship in caps to reset their progress, or laying down some distracting fire to give an enemy ship who's harassing a friendly something else to think about. Having an extra km or so of range lets you open fire just that little bit earlier if you're racing to get back in order to defend something or someone.  Battleships are not so hard to hit at such ranges, especially at lower tiers.

Smashing a furiously manoeuvring small ship with concentrated rapid fire is, I agree, something better saved for much closer quarters.

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7 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

Battleships are not so hard to hit at such ranges, especially at lower tiers.

I don't know, have you played something like a Farragut? That's the gun performance I'm talking off. Try hitting a Scharnhorst or Normandie going at full speed, see how many salvoes it will take to get a proper range estimate. I have no reason to lie to you, USN DDs past Clemson don't take AFT (unless it's AA Benson for ranked or something similarly weird) simply because it's inefficient. Jianwei - yes, take it, but BFT is better in my books, Fushun - sure, but after GM all PA DDs have USN DD gun characteristics so it's really hard to justify 3 points in AFT when you can take TAE or DE or SE instead.

So if you don't want to respec the captain once you get to GM, just put points into something else.

Edited by geser98

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1 minute ago, geser98 said:

I don't know, have you played something like a Farragut? That's the gun performance I'm talking off. Try hitting a Scharnhorst or Normandie going at full speed, see how many salvoes it will take to get a proper range estimate.

By "lower tiers" I am talking tiers 2, 3, 4 here. Once you're up into the fast BB's then yes, they have to be sitting around doing nothing or their rate-across has to be pretty low, but those moments still occur.

I'm in Farragut at the moment - I haven't fought her much, because ever since I got her my attention has been on other things (getting the Pan-Asians and British battleships to Tier 5, getting the Cleveland in order to benefit from the line split). However, I'm well aware of the gunnery issues you're talking about. The Farragut currently has a six-point commander, but as soon as he gets to ten I'm getting Concealment Expert for him. I'm likely not going any higher than Jianwei in the Pan-Asian line - I'm betting that by the time I could grind up to Gadjah (with everything else that'll be going on), the British DD line would be taking shape and I would rather put my efforts into that.

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7 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

I'm betting that by the time I could grind up to Gadjah (with everything else that'll be going on), the British DD line would be taking shape and I would rather put my efforts into that.

I like your style - try many different ships, that's the most fun in this game. Don't grind, don't freexp, most ships I played so far are great in one way or another.

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1 hour ago, geser98 said:

Don't grind, don't freexp

I resisted the temptation to free-XP to Leander from Danae, and despite the fact that the Emerald grind was hell, I'm glad I did it.

I held out the option of free-XP-ing to the Cleveland (from the St Louis; I had enough to do it at once), but real-world time on my hands and premium account time came together in just the right combination to make that grind brutally quick. If an exceptionally generous split package is promised I will sit down and decide whether it is worth free-XP-ing the Pensacola, but I doubt it. I don't think I have the nervous energy to grind through the Cleveland - for some reason I seem to be performing worse in her than in the Omaha and certainly worse than the Leander.

I have my Pan-Asians ground up to Tier V now, so they can contribute to events, and feel no need to go higher at the moment.

I will work my German cruisers up to Tier V for the same reason, and put my Scenario-prize 10-point captain in when I get there.

Everything else I have in my port is either not top-tier (and needs no further grinding), or has reached a level where its demands equal or exceed my competence (Tier VIII cruisers, Tier VI battleships and destroyers), so it's not so much a matter of grinding those as simply playing them and letting the XP chips fall where they may.

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On 4/5/2018 at 7:24 AM, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

Thanks for the advice so far. Survivability Expert is noted, but I am prepared to prioritise dealing out damage over being able to take it (the rationale being that if I can kill, disable or drive off an enemy ship more quickly, I won't take the damage in the first place). On that basis, BFT seems like the best bet all round. I've heard people argue against AFT for destroyers because it increases the bloom distance and hampers your stealthiness, and is of no value if you're habitually engaging in short-range gunfights anyway, but the extra kilometre or so in range that it gives me would have come in handy a couple of times over the last few days. 

The next debate will be whether to go for DE after BFT or for Concealment Expert first. Thirteen points is a long way to grind.

The rationale for Survivability expert is that you will do more damage (and get more xp/credits) in the long run if you survive just that little bit longer.  Having just a tiny bit of HP is much more viable in a DD than in cruisers and battleships because of the ability to stealth torp and fire from smoke with little to no detection penalty.  You generally want to be undetected when dealing damage, so having next to no HP is not an issue for damage dealing.  Having the HP advantage over enemy dds gives you the chance to get to the game state where you are unable to be detected by LOS from any enemy ships without you knowing about it (you or your team killed all the enemy dds).  Admittedly this is less valuable since Jianwei can only really stealth torp with concealment expert.  The general point is actually the same as your desire though.  Its just a long view rather than a short term one.

On 4/5/2018 at 11:31 AM, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

I held out the option of free-XP-ing to the Cleveland (from the St Louis; I had enough to do it at once), but real-world time on my hands and premium account time came together in just the right combination to make that grind brutally quick. If an exceptionally generous split package is promised I will sit down and decide whether it is worth free-XP-ing the Pensacola, but I doubt it. I don't think I have the nervous energy to grind through the Cleveland - for some reason I seem to be performing worse in her than in the Omaha and certainly worse than the Leander.

If you keep the Cleveland getting the Pepsicola now is only likely to give you new tier 7 (New Orleans) while just owning the Cleveland should give you the Cleveland at its new tier and the Pensacola (as the new t6).  Its unlikely to matter at all whether you free xp now, later or never.

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I am a fan of RN DDs but I found the John Wayne really difficult, as it has problems against other DDs with those torps.

It is a good gunny but does not make a lot of damage.

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For Jianwei it doesn't matter, it's going to suck no matter what.  It's basically a tier I cruiser with smoke and crappy torps. 

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