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Stauffenberg44

Pre-dreadnoughts bring them on

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Sure, why not. My Mikasa is getting lonely.

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They need to work on their gameplay first.  Only a small part of their firepower rests in their main battery, and they have limited traverse.  If anything, they should play like Armored Cruisers, but with the main battery acting like secondaries, then we might have something interesting.  At the moment, the minimal firepower, insane inaccuracy and terrible traverse means player interaction with this ships are at an all time minimum in the game.

cGc4VBp.gif 

Edited by Sventex
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10 minutes ago, American_Ace_96 said:

Nice pics from Howl's Moving Castle. Either way, I would like to see more pre dreadnaughts too. 

Yes I should have mentioned that thanks:

Quote

Howl's Moving Castle is a 2004 Japanese animated fantasy film written and directed by Hayao Miyazaki. The film is loosely based on the novel of the same name by British author Diana Wynne Jones.

 

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14 minutes ago, Sventex said:

They need to work on their gameplay first.  Only a small part of their firepower rests in their main battery, and they have limited traverse.  If anything, they should play like Armored Cruisers, but with the main battery acting like secondaries, then we might have something interesting.  At the moment, the minimal firepower, insane inaccuracy and terrible traverse means player interaction with this ships are at an all time minimum in the game.

Keep in mind I think they nerfed Mikasa badly to avoid her being *perceived* as OP. With better main gun accuracy and sane secondaries she would be good for close in fighting. I think pre-dreadnought tier II play will basically be bash and crash with ramming encouraged (break those 400+ ramming flags out to be used).

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16 minutes ago, Stauffenberg44 said:

Keep in mind I think they nerfed Mikasa badly to avoid her being *perceived* as OP. With better main gun accuracy and sane secondaries she would be good for close in fighting. I think pre-dreadnought tier II play will basically be bash and crash with ramming encouraged (break those 400+ ramming flags out to be used).

This isn't about balance, this is about gameplay.  The guns can barely hit anything , the ship has to be pointed nearly broadside to fire them and the secondaries force you into a suicidally close range against DDs.  In terms of gameplay, you have almost no options on how to steer the ship, it's near impossible to influence the match because of their guns, and the ship dies after 3 torp hits which means the secondaries can't even carry a duel.    Plus you don't control the secondaries, so as a player, your stuck taking a back seat in a pre-dread.  That's their big problem.  The player barely gets to barely do anything in a pre-dread.

 

I'm certain WGing can turn pre-dreads into the next big fad, but they have to fix the gameplay first.  There's nothing stopping WGing from making some Operations in the pre-dread era.

Edited by Sventex

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1 minute ago, Sventex said:

I'm certain WGing can turn pre-dreads into the next big fad, but they have to fix the gameplay first.  There's nothing stopping WGing from making some Operations in the pre-dread era.

It goes without saying they have to rethink the whole tier II battle scheme and my point was that Mikasa was a one-off at the time. If they are bringing on Borodino and others they have to make it work reasonably and I am assuming it will be close in battles and probably scaled-back torp effectiveness just to make things playable.

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33 minutes ago, Stauffenberg44 said:

pre-dreadnoughts.thumb.jpg.b8d737177fbaa24a79af0c38da7e63ef.jpg

 

The title says it all. Check out my thread if you haven't and vote:

 

Yes we need more of them and not more of these so called Russian super BATTLE Cruisers we are getting.

plus 1

 

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I've been giving this a lot of thought over the last year or so, especially with my work on the World of Pre-Dreadnought's project.  

Before looking at the game play challenges of mixed battery ships like Pre-Dreadnoughts, I think it might be useful to correct a common misconception about the type which is that Pre-Dreadnoughts carried most of their firepower in their secondary batteries, which simply isn't the case.  

While it is true that many Pre-Dreadnoughts carried significant secondary batteries, and while it was contemplated that these secondary batteries would be useful in suppressing the fire of enemy capital ships, in practice this wasn't the case.  During the age of the Pre-Dreadnoughts, it was thought that combat would take place at around 4,000 meters or so because it was felt that the guns of the age simply weren't capable of hitting moving targets at much beyond that.  Had this been true, the secondary batteries (usually 6 inch guns) would be able to smother an enemy vessel with firepower which, while it might not be able to penetrate an enemy ship's armor, could make it difficult for it to aim it's guns accurate or control and coordinate the ships firepower and movements.  

When fleets of Pre-Dreadnoughts did end up facing each other, however, it was found that range at which fleets were willing to engage each other were significantly greater than expected.  This then made the heavy 12 inch guns the weapons of decision and the only ones that truly mattered in a fleet engagement.

This concept began to break down somewhat with the arrival of the Semi-Dreadnoughts in the years just before the building of HMS Dreadnought, but for most Pre-Dreadnoughts, it really was her heavy guns, few in number though they may have been, that her primary firepower resided. 

I think that it's very possible that the existing method that WOWS treats medium and light caliber secondary weapons works reasonably well for Pre-Dreadnoughts.  It might not be a bad idea to buff their range a bit and give them less dispersion than those aboard Mikasa, but in all honesty, these batteries aren't substantially different than those carried by many of the Dreadnoughts which followed them and the formula is essentially the same, big guns which are the real ship killers and a group of supporting secondary guns mostly being aimed and fired by drunk monkeys. 

Where this starts to break down is when you start looking at the very last breed of Pre-Dreadnought, the Semi-Dreadnought. 

The Semi-Dreadnoughts did not carry medium sized secondary guns, instead their secondary batteries shipped weapons which were only a bit smaller than the guns of the main battery, guns that were capable of penetrating the armor of opposing battleships.  These secondary batteries really were an extension of the main battery and so treating them as short ranged medium caliber weapons really does rob these ships or a substantial amount of their primary firepower which could, under the right circumstances, approach that of a true Dreadnought. 

WOWS however could simply solve this problem by simply using run of the mill Pre-Dreadnoughts and ignoring the Semi-Dreadnoughts.  

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23 minutes ago, BB3_Oregon_Steel said:

I've been giving this a lot of thought over the last year or so, especially with my work on the World of Pre-Dreadnought's project.  

Before looking at the game play challenges of mixed battery ships like Pre-Dreadnoughts, I think it might be useful to correct a common misconception about the type which is that Pre-Dreadnoughts carried most of their firepower in their secondary batteries, which simply isn't the case.  

While it is true that many Pre-Dreadnoughts carried significant secondary batteries, and while it was contemplated that these secondary batteries would be useful in suppressing the fire of enemy capital ships, in practice this wasn't the case.  During the age of the Pre-Dreadnoughts, it was thought that combat would take place at around 4,000 meters or so because it was felt that the guns of the age simply weren't capable of hitting moving targets at much beyond that.  Had this been true, the secondary batteries (usually 6 inch guns) would be able to smother an enemy vessel with firepower which, while it might not be able to penetrate an enemy ship's armor, could make it difficult for it to aim it's guns accurate or control and coordinate the ships firepower and movements.  

When fleets of Pre-Dreadnoughts did end up facing each other, however, it was found that range at which fleets were willing to engage each other were significantly greater than expected.  This then made the heavy 12 inch guns the weapons of decision and the only ones that truly mattered in a fleet engagement.

This concept began to break down somewhat with the arrival of the Semi-Dreadnoughts in the years just before the building of HMS Dreadnought, but for most Pre-Dreadnoughts, it really was her heavy guns, few in number though they may have been, that her primary firepower resided. 

I think that it's very possible that the existing method that WOWS treats medium and light caliber secondary weapons works reasonably well for Pre-Dreadnoughts.  It might not be a bad idea to buff their range a bit and give them less dispersion than those aboard Mikasa, but in all honesty, these batteries aren't substantially different than those carried by many of the Dreadnoughts which followed them and the formula is essentially the same, big guns which are the real ship killers and a group of supporting secondary guns mostly being aimed and fired by drunk monkeys. 

Where this starts to break down is when you start looking at the very last breed of Pre-Dreadnought, the Semi-Dreadnought. 

The Semi-Dreadnoughts did not carry medium sized secondary guns, instead their secondary batteries shipped weapons which were only a bit smaller than the guns of the main battery, guns that were capable of penetrating the armor of opposing battleships.  These secondary batteries really were an extension of the main battery and so treating them as short ranged medium caliber weapons really does rob these ships or a substantial amount of their primary firepower which could, under the right circumstances, approach that of a true Dreadnought. 

WOWS however could simply solve this problem by simply using run of the mill Pre-Dreadnoughts and ignoring the Semi-Dreadnoughts.  

I don't think anyone has argued that pre-dreads carried most of their firepower in the secondary batteries, but in terms of player interaction, they are the most interactive. If it comes down to a fight between an Armored Cruiser and a Pre-Dread, the secondary battery should play a role.  These engagement should have more in common with the age of sail with many-gun broadsides, then long range sniping.  These ships are slow and are armed with low RoF guns, which do not lend themselves well to a 20min match.  Players cannot make much use of maneuvers or armor with these ships, which makes long range jousting a game of roulette, instead of a skill based game like poker.  Which is why the secondary batteries of Pre-Dreads need to play a role in this game, to allow skill to dictate outcomes.

Edited by Sventex

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The tier 9/10 players WWII will look down on them...diss em. "I tier 10, me Tarzon"  crap.  That crap. 

Edited by dmckay

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23 minutes ago, Sventex said:

This isn't about balance, this is about gameplay.  The guns can barely hit anything , the ship has to be pointed nearly broadside to fire them and the secondaries force you into a suicidally close range against DDs.  In terms of gameplay, you have almost no options on how to steer the ship, it's near impossible to influence the match because of their guns, and the ship dies after 3 torp hits which means the secondaries can't even carry a duel.    Plus you don't control the secondaries, so as a player, your stuck taking a back seat in a pre-dread.  That's their big problem.  The player barely gets to barely do anything in a pre-dread.

 

I'm certain WGing can turn pre-dreads into the next big fad, but they have to fix the gameplay first.  There's nothing stopping WGing from making some Operations in the pre-dread era.

Mikasa can actually be a pretty effective ship. In the 23 random battles I've played with her, I have a 60.87% win rate in Random Battles.  Like any other odd ship or ships with obvious weaknesses, you really have to think hard about how you are going to fight her to bring out her strengths and not get yourself into situations where her weaknesses can't be overcome.  

Mikasa's guns are not pop guns, they are fully capable of one shotting any cruiser in her tier and are not useless against any other ship she might face.  Any captain who tries to close with a destroyer in a low tier battleship hoping that their secondary battery takes care of the little menances is just asking for trouble and Mikasa is no exception.  Mikasa's secondaries are for Tier II and Tier III cruisers which venture too close, or for setting fires on Dreadnoughts that want to come in close to duel.  Mikasa deals with dd's by using her insanely tight turning radius and relatively small size, to make herself an elusive target while screaming for a friendly cruiser to peel the offending dd off her back.  Failing that, your defense is a lot of prayer and the hope that the RNG gods will allow you to put a couple of 12 inch HE shells into the little abominations. 

Dreadnoughts are a problem, however if you are lucky, the red BB's will recognize what you are and decide you aren't a danger and shoot at someone else.  If that happens (which it does fairly often), this gives you a free pass to pick your targets, roll the RNG dice and wait for your shells to find their targets all in relative impunity.  If a Dreadnought does take an interest in you, then you become an armored block, soaking up firepower which it could be more gainfully using elsewhere.

Mikasa can help the team win in a lot of different ways and playing her effectively depends on figuring out exactly how she can contribute in any given situation.  You do have to think about it a bit, it's not always easy, but it certainly can be done. 

 

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13 minutes ago, BB3_Oregon_Steel said:

Mikasa can actually be a pretty effective ship. In the 23 random battles I've played with her, I have a 60.87% win rate in Random Battles.  Like any other odd ship or ships with obvious weaknesses, you really have to think hard about how you are going to fight her to bring out her strengths and not get yourself into situations where her weaknesses can't be overcome.  

Mikasa's guns are not pop guns, they are fully capable of one shotting any cruiser in her tier and are not useless against any other ship she might face.  Any captain who tries to close with a destroyer in a low tier battleship hoping that their secondary battery takes care of the little menances is just asking for trouble and Mikasa is no exception.  Mikasa's secondaries are for Tier II and Tier III cruisers which venture too close, or for setting fires on Dreadnoughts that want to come in close to duel.  Mikasa deals with dd's by using her insanely tight turning radius and relatively small size, to make herself an elusive target while screaming for a friendly cruiser to peel the offending dd off her back.  Failing that, your defense is a lot of prayer and the hope that the RNG gods will allow you to put a couple of 12 inch HE shells into the little abominations. 

Dreadnoughts are a problem, however if you are lucky, the red BB's will recognize what you are and decide you aren't a danger and shoot at someone else.  If that happens (which it does fairly often), this gives you a free pass to pick your targets, roll the RNG dice and wait for your shells to find their targets all in relative impunity.  If a Dreadnought does take an interest in you, then you become an armored block, soaking up firepower which it could be more gainfully using elsewhere.

Mikasa can help the team win in a lot of different ways and playing her effectively depends on figuring out exactly how she can contribute in any given situation.  You do have to think about it a bit, it's not always easy, but it certainly can be done. 

 

Mikasa's shells on paper are very powerful, but the fact that entire salvos can miss against an afk player at 3km shows that the player has next to no influence on how they preform.  They cannot be relied on to do damage, especially against enemy DDs.  You can point to all the RNG gods you want, but that doesn't make it good gameplay.  KV-2 in World of Tanks relies on a lot of RNG, but the thing is, with enough time, you can aim the gun to reliable hit (and mostly likely destroy) something at medium range, which is why that tank is so popular.  The Mikasa can't even reliably eliminate afk players without her secondaries, which makes her a glorified port queen.

I mean look at this, Jingles can't even get the guns to hit at 1km at 6:20.  And in the other replay on this video, the Mikasa players ends up with ribbons for 2 hits and 3 kills 9 minutes into the game.  That's how bad the guns are.

 

Edited by Sventex
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2 hours ago, Sventex said:

They need to work on their gameplay first.  Only a small part of their firepower rests in their main battery, and they have limited traverse.  If anything, they should play like Armored Cruisers, but with the main battery acting like secondaries, then we might have something interesting.  At the moment, the minimal firepower, insane inaccuracy and terrible traverse means player interaction with this ships are at an all time minimum in the game.

cGc4VBp.gif 

Just to ask something completely out of subject but... From which anime does the GIF come from?

Edited by MS406france1940

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Just now, MS406france1940 said:

Just to ask something completely out of subject but... From which anime does teh GIF come from?

Spoiler

jvcfiof.jpg

ZahENiu.gif

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Maybe WG can make a separate line for Pre dreadnaughts and have them on their only playing field. Something similar to the setup tier 1s get. 

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10 hours ago, American_Ace_96 said:

Maybe WG can make a separate line for Pre dreadnaughts and have them on their only playing field. Something similar to the setup tier 1s get. 

Pre-Dreadnoughts didn't fight alone though.  At the Battle of Tsushima, the Japanese only had 5 Battleships, supported by 27 Cruisers and 21 Destroyers, against the 11 Russian Battleships and their supports.

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20 hours ago, Sventex said:

They need to work on their gameplay first.  Only a small part of their firepower rests in their main battery, and they have limited traverse.  If anything, they should play like Armored Cruisers, but with the main battery acting like secondaries, then we might have something interesting.  At the moment, the minimal firepower, insane inaccuracy and terrible traverse means player interaction with this ships are at an all time minimum in the game.

cGc4VBp.gif 

I just want to know what this image is from...

 

nvm already asked and answered

Edited by JohnPJones

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1 minute ago, JohnPJones said:

I just want to know what this image is from...

I answered it at post#17.  It's not that exciting, it's just one episode of the anime where the US have dispatched the Battleship "Abraham" to hunt Kaiju like in the movie Pacific Rim.  But like I said, it only lasts an episode.

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14 hours ago, Sventex said:

Pre-Dreadnoughts didn't fight alone though.  At the Battle of Tsushima, the Japanese only had 5 Battleships, supported by 27 Cruisers and 21 Destroyers, against the 11 Russian Battleships and their supports.

True but the Era of Pre-Dreadnoughts might work.

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On 4/4/2018 at 5:53 PM, Sventex said:

Mikasa's shells on paper are very powerful, but the fact that entire salvos can miss against an afk player at 3km shows that the player has next to no influence on how they preform.  They cannot be relied on to do damage, especially against enemy DDs.  You can point to all the RNG gods you want, but that doesn't make it good gameplay.  KV-2 in World of Tanks relies on a lot of RNG, but the thing is, with enough time, you can aim the gun to reliable hit (and mostly likely destroy) something at medium range, which is why that tank is so popular.  The Mikasa can't even reliably eliminate afk players without her secondaries, which makes her a glorified port queen.

I mean look at this, Jingles can't even get the guns to hit at 1km at 6:20.  And in the other replay on this video, the Mikasa players ends up with ribbons for 2 hits and 3 kills 9 minutes into the game.  That's how bad the guns are.

 

Ok, just a few things here. 

1) I have nothing but respect from Mr. Jingles, however, based on his comments in this video, he himself has driven the Mikasa once, maybe twice so he's not exactly an authority on her and what she can do or can not do.  

2) She's only a port queen if you decide not to player her and she's only hopeless if you can't win with her.  The fact is a lot of players give up on her early as, with only 4 main guns in two turrets, she can't launch the "Wall of Shells" that other battleships can so they move on to other ships that meet their expectations better.  However if you take a bit of time and use her strengths intelligently, she can be a very successful ship as I've described above. 

3) It's not just luck and it's not just gunnery.  If luck were the only determining factor she'd win no more than possibly half her battles and she perform's much better than that (overall she's 52.5% WOWS wide and over 60%+ for me on over 20 battles).  What makes her so challenging is that she has trouble winning battles in the way a traditional dreadnought might and players who do not wish to alter their playstyle to compensate for this won't be successful with her.  

4) Scoring hits with her main battery is not simply about luck.  Gunnery with Mikasa is a nerve wracking activity.  Very possibly, because you have so few guns, you really do pay much closer attention to your aim since you have so few shells to waste.  Certainly they can fly off in all sorts of unexpected directions but without careful aiming they are never ever going to hit anything.  Getting that perfect aim point for Mikasa is arguably far more important than it is with any other battleship as to achieve hits, you really have to be spot on as you can't expect that dispersion on a typical 8 to 12 gun broadside will still gain you hits if your aim is off.  

Does this mean that Mikasa's main battery is amazing or even just plain good.  No, not at all, it's easily the worst main battery or any battleship in the game.  However, can she be a successful ship, yes she can.  

Edited by BB3_Oregon_Steel

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I think the next Pre-Dreadnought we're going to see in the game in Borodino, sort of Mikasa's opposite number at Tsushima.  The Borodino's were not the best Russian battleship of the era but they were the most numerous and most modern.  Her spectacular destruction at the hands of Tojo's fleet makes her the next logical candidate and will probably help her sell well at least on the RUS server.  

Once you get past Mikasa and Borodino, you really don't have a lot of "famous" Pre-Dreadnoughts to work from.  For the most part, Pre-Dreadnoughts of other countries led relatively peaceful lives until that advent of WWI and then, mostly these old warriors were used only in secondary tasks.  There are, however, a couple of exceptions. 

USS Oregon:  A member of the Indiana class, the USN's first "first class" battleships.  Of these, the Oregon stands out due to her several operations during the Spanish American War and her running down of the Spanish armored cruiser, Cristobal Colon, during the battle of Santiago de Cuba.  Oregon's problem is that she is one of the very first Pre-Dreadnoughts ever constructed and it would be interesting to see how she would hold up at Tier II. 

SMS Pommern:  One of Germany's last Pre-Dreadnoughts.  The Pommern was one of several similar German Pre-Dreadnoughts which actively participated in the Battle of Jutland and the only one destroyed there.  

SMS/KMS Schleswig-Holstein: One of SMS Pommern's sister ships of the Deutschland class.  Like Pommern, Schleswig-Holstein fought at Jutland however she survived the experience and went on to become one of the handful of old German Pre-Dreadnought battleships which Germany was allowed to keep in commission after the end of WW II.  She was still in commission at the beginning of WW II and fired the first shots of the European War when she attacked the Polish fortress of Westerplatte.   

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