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IFHE for Alsace and Republique?

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So I have been looking around for potential builds for my Frenchies, and I figured I would get the most potential enjoyment out of a secondary build. I have heard people swear by IFHE on Republique for the secondaries, since they are a bit larger caliber than their German counterparts. Does the Republique get enough of a benefit from IFHE to sacrifice 4 captain points and fire chance?

 

Also, should I do the usual AP spam in Repub or should I do a He/Ap combo because of the fire chance and pen?

 

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It gives you more damage but that's not really what secondaries are for they are more for setting fires so my vote is no. as for the ammo choices the Repub has a fast enough reload that you should be firing both types of ammo but for the tier IX just use AP you have enough guns that it really doesn't matter

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Not worth 4 points, demolition expert will get you more damage.

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You would have to put another 4 points into Manual secondaries for it to have any real effect at all and then again situational. DE would also be prudent in that case. Doesn't seem too good to me though.

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Republique does not need IFHE.  Her secondary gun sizes, 127 & 152mm, are of sufficient size that they can penetrate even BB superstructure, and not be reliant on fires alone for secondaries damage against BBs.

 

For Alsace, IFHE *IS* a bonafide, good choice for her secondaries.  Without IFHE, her shells only penetrate and damage Destroyers and Cruisers.  Against BB threats, you can land hundreds and hundreds and HUNDREDS of 100mm shell hits and do ZERO SHELL DAMAGE.  Alsace will be reliant on Fire damage for her secondaries to do something against a BB.  This was one such terrible Secondaries Performance by my Alsace against a Missouri.

cPwEmxf.jpg

275 secondary shell hits for only 726 damage???  GTFOuttahere!

 

Alsace secondaries WITH IFHE, now she can penetrate and do shell damage on BB superstructures.  Couple that with the still very high reload speed, not only will her shells do actual penetrating damage, but she still lands fires.

 

In training room tests, I've timed my Alsace Secondaries to fire for 2 minutes each on FDG, Alsace, Missouri, Izumo, Lion targets.  In 2 minutes:

WITHOUT IFHE:  BB targets survived with around 27k-32k HP remaining.

WITH IFHE:  All BB targets were destroyed within 2 minutes.

 

The question though is how much are you willing to sacrifice to implement Alsace IFHE Secondaries?

BFT+AFT+Manual Secondaries+IFHE?  That's an amazing 15 of your 19 max capt points.  You can drop BFT and give up some AA DPS and Secondary Reload Speed, but that's still 12 out of 19 max capt points.

Manual Secondaries Builds are expensive builds, and Manual-IFHE Secondaries are by far the most expensive builds in the game.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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On 4/3/2018 at 10:30 PM, X15 said:

Not worth 4 points, demolition expert will get you more damage.

I'm at 150 games played in Alsace, about 60 without IFHE before I got my 18th capt point and mounted IFHE. My average secondaries damage doubled when I put IFHE on (was already running manual secondaries and AFT.)

I do not use IFHE on Republique; I get more value from having expert marksman and BFT (I would have to give up both to get IFHE as my third 4-point skill.) The 127mm guns can pen stuff on their own while most of Alsace's secondary power is in her 100mm guns. But Alsace is moderately strong without IFHE secondaries, and completely, brokenly, hilariously OP with the IFHE secondaries. 

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IMO it comes down to your playstyle.

If you run MFC and like to use your Alsace/Republic to start fires on as many ships as you can like I do, you want to max your ROF and fire %. In which case, IFHE is not a viable option.

However, if you like to set and forget regardless of how many BBs/cruisers etc you may have in range then IFHE may be for you. But remember, its a slight direct damage gain over a DOT (Damage over time) loss due to reduced fire%. And this trade will only benefit BB superstructures and perhaps some cruisers. 

According to various other tests in this forum and Notser, IFHE is ineffective for guns lower than 150-155mm. I did test this on the Bismarck secondaries and found the 105mms gained no benefit from IFHE and even its 150mms struggled to achieve any DPS difference with IFHE. Soooo, on the Republic, this would mean IFHE is not beneficial to its 127mm secondaries, but would be useful for the 152s the same as the Alsace. I havent tested this personally and have no plans to as you can see from the testing data of the guys above (thanks for supplying this BTW), that IFHE does work well with the Alsaces 152s. So if anybody disagrees, by all means, post some testing data away. Not sure how you would be able to turn off your 152s though, perhaps have another mate disable them or something, anyhow.

I like to use my Alsaces 152mm turrets as fire starters and spread the love in addition to its 100 mms. As 152s have a 12% fire chance and shoot every 8.6 seconds, this is a considerable flamethrower. So far, the best damage in game for me with fires spread across several BBs is 67k.

Also, Ive managed to one shot a full health T7 DD up close with just my 152s so I definitely will not be using IFHE any time soon.

So to sum up, IMO it depends on your playstyle, if you like to set and forget then sure, give IFHE a go. But if you like to share the fire love and get several fires going on different ships at once, then I would use the points elsewhere, especially if you have JJH (French Campaign Capt).

Cheers
CC123

 

Edited by CC123

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Like others have said IFHE on the Alsace is the real deal.  I run the whole IFHE/Secondary build on my Alsace and it is insanity.  The most fun build I've ever played.  It's not unusual to do 20-30k in just damage with your secondaries.  Then the fires are above and beyond that.

As for the Republique, I won't put my IFHE commander on it.  No real benefit due to the loss of 100mm guns.

 

P.S.  Seriously, the Alsace is busted in this mode...don't tell WG.

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13 hours ago, CC123 said:

According to various other tests in this forum and Notser, IFHE is ineffective for guns lower than 150-155mm. I did test this on the Bismarck secondaries and found the 105mms gained no benefit from IFHE and even its 150mms struggled to achieve any DPS difference with IFHE.

Remember,  Bismarck has improved HE penetration built in.  Testing the German 105s and comparing to the French 100s is apples to oranges without some scaling math in between.

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Couple of things here:

Let's look at the pen increase for IFHE, for the French 100, 127, and 152mm guns:

  • 100mm:   16mm (without), 21mm (with)
  • 127mm:  20mm (without), 28mm (with)
  • 152mm:  24mm (without), 33mm (with)

All of these pass critical thresholds.

Here's the table showing what you can pen for each (I'm only concerned with T6+ ships, as that all the T8, T9, and T10 French Bbs will ever see) :

  Without IFHE With IFHE
100mm

All part of T7 and under DDs

Superstructure only of T8+ DDs

Most non-belt, non-turret parts of T6 cruisers

Bow, stern, and superstructure of T7 cruisers

Superstructure of T7 and under BBs

All parts of all DDs

All non-belt, non-turret parts of T7 CAs and any RN CL

Superstructure of all BBs

127mm

All parts of all DDs

All superstructures of all cruisers and BBs

Most non-belt, non-turret parts of T7 and under Cruisers and any RN CL

Almost all non-belt, non-turret parts of all Cruisers (some parts of T10 cruisers excepted)

Bow/stern of T7 and under BBs

152mm Same as for 127mm above.

All non-belt, non-turret parts of any cruiser

Bow/stern of any BB

 

The "with IFHE" column highlights where the additional pen can occur, and is in addition to the "without IFHE" column.

IFHE reduces the fire chance as follows:

  • 100mm:  from 6% to 5%, a 15% reduction
  • 127mm: from 9% to 8%, a 11% reduction
  • 152mm: from 12% to 9%, a 25% reduction

 

So, based on this, you get to decide if it's worth it.  

14 hours ago, Airacobra said:

Remember,  Bismarck has improved HE penetration built in.  Testing the German 105s and comparing to the French 100s is apples to oranges without some scaling math in between.

German 105s on CAs and BBs DON'T get the /4 penetration bump that the 128mm and 150mm guns do.  So a German 105 is functionally identical to a French 100 in penetration performance.  And, yes, German 105mm WILL benefit (as above) from IFHE. Due to their /4 bonus, German 128mm and 150mm see virtually no pen increase (only an extremely few places will it show up).  As such, IFHE really isn't worth the 4 points on German BBs at all, and its not really an optimal choice on the German CAs, either. 


 

Notser's wrong on IFHE.  It absolutely certainly is quite effective for under 150mm guns. Whether or not it's worth the 4 points is another question, and depends on the ship in question (particularly the tier and it's expected opponents) and it's particular gun loadout. For example, it's a HUGE benefit to the Akizuki and Agile and many Russian DDs.  It's also beneficial to IJN DDs, but the 4 points are better put to use elsewhere.

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To me IFHE is too expensive for what the player gets in return outside of the 150mm breakpoints, I'd much rather invest those 4 points in a 1 point+3 point or most other 4 points since I'll see more return on the point investment

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On 4/5/2018 at 5:55 AM, AshySlashyAshySlashy said:

Like others have said IFHE on the Alsace is the real deal.  I run the whole IFHE/Secondary build on my Alsace and it is insanity.  The most fun build I've ever played.  It's not unusual to do 20-30k in just damage with your secondaries.  Then the fires are above and beyond that.

What is you captain build for Alsace?

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12 hours ago, Notser said:

To me IFHE is too expensive for what the player gets in return outside of the 150mm breakpoints, I'd much rather invest those 4 points in a 1 point+3 point or most other 4 points since I'll see more return on the point investment

Hey Notser!  Love the videos, keep it up!

I would agree with you in every case except for the Alsace.  I have a ton of success with my setup.  I've tried it on the GK and the Gnes and it's not worth it. 

If you haven't tired it, you should.  If only for the fact that it is a ton of fun.

Anyway, see ya round!  You really do good work!

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Some great info here.

 

Just one last point. Maths is great, but testing is also needed to determine overall effectiveness. Hence my comments re Bismarck. I just found IFHE made no difference in game when used over several weeks. So was more than happy to swap it out for something more useful. But, thats just one persons experience.

If anybody has any way of testing the Alsaces 100s with its 152s disabled (with and without IFHE), Id love to see the data on that.

Cheers
CC123

Edited by CC123

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On 4/6/2018 at 7:48 AM, Notser said:

To me IFHE is too expensive for what the player gets in return outside of the 150mm breakpoints, I'd much rather invest those 4 points in a 1 point+3 point or most other 4 points since I'll see more return on the point investment

With respect, I can't agree. IFHE + Manual secondaries + AFT = profit on Alsace. You'll see your damage jump 30-50K a game, and no other use of those points will have such a potent effect on your damage output. On those cramped stupid island maps WG loves so much, in brawls that occur from the mid-game on All Sauce will annihilate opposing BBs, especially since from that point on you'll be engaging ships one at a time rather than in groups.  The only thing I worry about when brawling in Alsace are Sky Parasites.

Alsace secondaries have such rapid reload that you don't need BFT so you still have 3 points to spend elsewhere. So the loss of points is not as great as it seems.

BzplIuD.png
Since I made the changes I've regularly been getting games like this. Those 354 secondary hits were 45k damage, as I recall. Her hidden advantage is that her guns have surprising punch and the shells seem to go where I want them. Still haven't broken the 200K mark (196K is highest so far), but I am averaging 107K in her, with a 59% win rate after 27 games. She's good and with a full-on secondary build offers that WHEEEEEE! feeling that is generally absent in high tier matches. 
 

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I do a Full secondary build along with modules/flags, but instead of IFHE I use DE for maximum fires.

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IFHE allows Alsace secondaries to do direct damage.

 

Compare my earlier screenshot of my Non-IFHE Alsace against another BB earlier in the thread:

cPwEmxf.jpg

275 shell hits for 726 damage.  If it wasn't for fires, those secondaries would be useless against BBs.

 

Here's a small sample of IFHE Alsace secondaries against a BB threat.

f5JWOyC.jpg

It wasn't a long engagement.  101 shell hits for 12k direct damage and 1 fire was set.  If this was a longer brawl you can bet those secondaries would wear the target down with a combination of shell and fire damage.

 

Without IFHE, the secondaries are just fine against DD & Cruiser threats.  The problem is against BBs, you are reliant on fire damage for your secondaries to do anything.

 

Once of these days I'll experiment with a Main Battery / ASM1 Alsace Build, but right now Secondaries are just too fun.  On Lyon, I had tried AA Build most of the time and felt she was a good overall ship like that.  I just switched her to ASM1 and it's a big difference.  Just not fond of her weakened AA in such a build and CVs suddenly being able to push her harder compared to my AA Build, where Lyon would butcher planes.  Curious to see how much of a change this is for ASM1 on Alsace.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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I will try this and see how it works for me

 

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10 hours ago, Gary_P said:

I will try this and see how it works for me

 

When you got the build, try it in Training Room against BB targets.  What I did to convince me was this simple test.

 

I took all the Tier IX BB targets as opponents.

 

Give your secondaries 2 minutes to fire on each of the BB targets.

 

The difference with and without IFHE will become blatantly obvious to your eyes.  Without IFHE and 2 minutes secondaries firing time, all my BB targets survived with about 28k-32k damage left.  With IFHE, none of them survived.  A concern by some is that IFHE will lessen the fires Alsace causes.  Technically that is correct because IFHE does reduce the fire chance.  However, Alsace fires her secondaries so quickly that the lowered fire chance by IFHE is irrelevant.

 

The downside of an IFHE Secondaries Build is that it is ultra-expensive to incorporate.

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23 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

When you got the build, try it in Training Room against BB targets.  What I did to convince me was this simple test.

 

I took all the Tier IX BB targets as opponents.

 

Give your secondaries 2 minutes to fire on each of the BB targets.

 

The difference with and without IFHE will become blatantly obvious to your eyes.  Without IFHE and 2 minutes secondaries firing time, all my BB targets survived with about 28k-32k damage left.  With IFHE, none of them survived.  A concern by some is that IFHE will lessen the fires Alsace causes.  Technically that is correct because IFHE does reduce the fire chance.  However, Alsace fires her secondaries so quickly that the lowered fire chance by IFHE is irrelevant.

 

The downside of an IFHE Secondaries Build is that it is ultra-expensive to incorporate.

I agree, Haze.  I'm going to give it a whirl once I get the Alsace (looking forward to that)

I already have a secondary build on my Tirpitz, once I get enough skill points, I'm going to try it, should work well with her numerous 105 mm & 150 mm guns.

I will say that IFHE is a great skill to have for light cruisers, my Mikhail Kutuzov does really well with it.

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15 hours ago, HMCS_Moncton said:

I agree, Haze.  I'm going to give it a whirl once I get the Alsace (looking forward to that)

I already have a secondary build on my Tirpitz, once I get enough skill points, I'm going to try it, should work well with her numerous 105 mm & 150 mm guns.

I will say that IFHE is a great skill to have for light cruisers, my Mikhail Kutuzov does really well with it.

IFHE on a Tirp/Bismark is really not worth it at all.  The 150mm already pen everything you see, and IFHE doesn't help them one little bit. The 105mm with IFHE now do get to pen 23mm (instead of 18) of armor, which is nice against BB superstructure and DD armor. But it's simply not worth the 4 points for that  small bump in pen.  Plus you take a 20% Fire chance penalty (from 5% to 4%) for the 105mm, and a 27% reduction for the 150mm (from 8% to 5%). 

Basically, you lose a quarter of your fire-starting capability for the ability to occasionally get at best a 400 hp hit with the 105mm. And I do mean "occasionally" - even against a big target like a BB or CA, only the superstructure is vulnerable to the 105mm+IFHE, which is maybe, MAYBE 20% of the total ship.  So 20% of your 105mm hits will now pen rather than do no damage. 

 

Let's do some math here.

The Tirp/Bis have

  • 8 150mm guns, 7.5 second reload, 1700 base HE damage with 8% fire chance. That's a total of 64 shots/minute.
  • 16 105mm guns, 3.35 second reload, 1200 base HE damage with 5% fire chance. That's 286.5 shots/minute

That means, for every 150mm hit, you get about 4.5 105mm hits. Or put it another way, 18% of your hits are 150mm ones.

Say you get 100 secondary hits in a game against typical T8 ships, that breaks down to:

  • 18 150mm hits, with an aggregate 144% chance to set a fire.
  • 82 105mm hits, with an aggregate 410% chance of fire.

Generally speaking, all the 150mm hits will do pen damage on DDs,  90% on CAs, and  maybe 80% on BBs.

For the 105mm, maybe 33% pen on a DD, 25% on a CA, and 0% on a BB.

 

Now, let's strap those guns with IFHE, and get 100 hits again.

  • The 150mm hits have only a 5% fire chance now, meaning the 18 hits have a 90% aggregate fire chance.
  • The 105mm have a 4% fire chance now, meaning the 82 hits have a 328% aggregate fire chance.

So, the 150mm has the same pen chance.

The 105mm, though, but now can now pen BB superstructure and DD hulls. Thus, they pen 100% of DDs, still only 25% of CAs, and maybe 20% of BBs.

 

Let's assume out of that 100 hits, you got 5 on a DD, 35 on a CA, and 60 on a BB, given the relatively likelihood of positioning, target size, etc.

So, for the non-IFHE setup, the total damage is:  18 * 1700/3 * (1.00 * 0.05 + 0.90 * 0.35 + 0.80 * 0.60)  + 82 *  1200/3 * (0.33 * 0.05 + 0.25 * 0.35 + 0.0 * 0.60) =  8619 + 3411 = 12030 damage for 100 shots.

For the IFHE setup:  18 * 1700/3 * (1.00 * 0.05 + 0.90 * 0.35 + 0.80 * 0.60) +  82 * 1200/3 * (1.0 * 0.05 + 0.25 * 0.35 + 0.20 * 0.60) = 8619 + 8446 = 17065 damage for 100 shots.

So, overall, you likely increase your damage done by 40%, at the cost of losing 25% of your fires.

 

But you have to look at this in the context of the game. Without Manual Secondaries, it's not going to be that often you score significantly in excess of 200 secondary hits, and most games will be under 100 hits total.

Also remember that a full-duration fire on a BB will cause 18% of it's health, 9% on a CA or DD. That's about 11500 on a T8 BB, 3500 on a T8 CA, and 1700 on a T8 DD.  Now, fires on a DD seldom burn very long, so we can ignore that damage. Fires on a CA, on the other hand, very often burn most of the time, and BB fires usually burn full duration (on average). 

Do remember that fire damage is 100% healable, while pen damage is only 50% healable. So, damage from a pen hit is roughly twice as valuable as from fire.

 

The numbers crunch out to be pretty much a wash. While you'd gain maybe 5000 points of damage from pen, you'd lose about 8000 in fire damage (per 100 hits). 

 

But, you had to pay 4 captain points for that.  That's not anywhere near a good enough tradeoff. Something like SI, or BFT, or Fire Prevention is a FAR better place to put that 4 points. 

Heck, putting 3 of those 4 points into Demolition Expert would give an aggregate 754% fire chance (vs 554% without IFHE or 418% with IFHE).  That's two more fires, or at least 16k more damage. 

 

Bottom line:  IFHE on a Bismark or Tirpitz gives only marginal improvement over not having it on there, at a VERY high opportunity cost.

 

Edited by EAnybody

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Let me be honest here...

 

Alsace is straight up awesome out of the box. I don't have any ship upgrades on mine yet (just got her) and in the few games I've played she is just way too much fun. 

My question you all is does one go manual secondaries or use those four points towards something else?

Edited by BlackZR1

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17 hours ago, BlackZR1 said:

Let me be honest here...

Alsace is straight up awesome out of the box. I don't have any ship upgrades on mine yet (just got her) and in the few games I've played she is just way too much fun. 

My question you all is does one go manual secondaries or use those four points towards something else?

I always include manual secondaries in my secondary builds, both German and French BBs. It's a huge difference in effectiveness; putting ANY points into your secondaries is almost a waste without manual secondaries because all the secondary firepower in the world doesn't matter if you can't hit the target. 

My Alsace build is discussed in detail here (along with Republique): 

 

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