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Belthorian

Graf Zeppelin, Why is she tier 8?

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 I understand getting new ships into the game is how Wargaming makes money but why would the Graf Zepplin be Tier 8? For starters, Germany had no experience building aircraft carriers and naval aviation in general. She was a BAD design AND the first effort at building an aircraft carrier...sounds like Tier 4 or 5 to me. The planes that were planned to fly from the Graf Zepplin were OBSOLETE in 1941.....again tier 4 or 5...6 tops. Have you ever heard the phrase you can't polish a turd, with the Graf Zepplin maybe Wargaming should stop trying to polish it and drop her a couple of tiers where it will be easier to compete with her foreign counterparts?

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You awnser yourself.

Wargaming makes money.

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Because tier 8 premiums are worth more money they can sell her for 60 dollars vs what ever a lower tier would cost 

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Reasons. 

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Because GZ is a much more powerful ship than any T6 or T7 carrier. Her airwing was historically quite bad, but as a ship Graf Zeppelin is much, much stronger than Ranger, Saipan, and Hiryu, let alone any of the T6 carriers. Better AA, larger and more HP, partial armoring, meaningful self-defense secondaries. End result is that the ship would have to get a weak airwing and when tough CV with weak airwing was tried, it proved unfun for both sides of the equation(from what I know about Shinano).

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7 minutes ago, Aetreus said:

Because GZ is a much more powerful ship than any T6 or T7 carrier. Her airwing was historically quite bad, but as a ship Graf Zeppelin is much, much stronger than Ranger, Saipan, and Hiryu, let alone any of the T6 carriers. Better AA, larger and more HP, partial armoring, meaningful self-defense secondaries. End result is that the ship would have to get a weak airwing and when tough CV with weak airwing was tried, it proved unfun for both sides of the equation(from what I know about Shinano).

They tried the Shiano in game?????? Man I would have liked to have seen her.

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9 minutes ago, Aetreus said:

Because GZ is a much more powerful ship than any T6 or T7 carrier. Her airwing was historically quite bad, but as a ship Graf Zeppelin is much, much stronger than Ranger, Saipan, and Hiryu, let alone any of the T6 carriers. Better AA, larger and more HP, partial armoring, meaningful self-defense secondaries. End result is that the ship would have to get a weak airwing and when tough CV with weak airwing was tried, it proved unfun for both sides of the equation(from what I know about Shinano).

^

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34 minutes ago, Belthorian said:

 I understand getting new ships into the game is how Wargaming makes money but why would the Graf Zepplin be Tier 8? For starters, Germany had no experience building aircraft carriers and naval aviation in general. She was a BAD design AND the first effort at building an aircraft carrier...sounds like Tier 4 or 5 to me. The planes that were planned to fly from the Graf Zepplin were OBSOLETE in 1941.....again tier 4 or 5...6 tops. Have you ever heard the phrase you can't polish a turd, with the Graf Zepplin maybe Wargaming should stop trying to polish it and drop her a couple of tiers where it will be easier to compete with her foreign counterparts?

IF the Germans completed the GZ, the planes would have be just fine.  British were flying Swordfish and Americans Devastators, so a Stuka dive bomber would be just fine, very similar to a Val or Dauntless.  The 109 was the premium fighter of 1941, so not sure how you can call 109s and Stukas for that matter obsolete by 41?  Were Vals and Dauntless obsolete by 41 ?  Neither was replaced till later 1944!!  As far as training, if the GZ would have been operational, say 1940/41 you can believe the Germans would have trained well and hard, as they did in any military unit.    The ship itself proved very durable in post war test conducted by the Soviets.  7 inch shells used as dive bombs did minimal damage to the armored flight deck and a torpedo fired didn't even make it through the torp bulge.  Your best and only argument for T8 is the limited plane complement, if historical would make this a T5/6 CV at best.  Otherwise the ship and planes are easily tier 8.  BTW GZ wasn't a bad design, it was actually a very good design that had a lot of teething problems some due to the Stuka's heavy weight.  It was a bit slow too....

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27 minutes ago, Belthorian said:

 I understand getting new ships into the game is how Wargaming makes money but why would the Graf Zepplin be Tier 8? For starters, Germany had no experience building aircraft carriers and naval aviation in general. She was a BAD design AND the first effort at building an aircraft carrier...sounds like Tier 4 or 5 to me. The planes that were planned to fly from the Graf Zepplin were OBSOLETE in 1941.....again tier 4 or 5...6 tops. Have you ever heard the phrase you can't polish a turd, with the Graf Zepplin maybe Wargaming should stop trying to polish it and drop her a couple of tiers where it will be easier to compete with her foreign counterparts?

Easier? She has no problems competing with her counterparts at tier 8 and right now is considered OP. And you want to drop her down some tiers? And as others have said, she’s at tier 8 because of all the other aspects about her. Air wing is not the only thing that goes into deciding what tier.

Edited by renegadestatuz

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37 minutes ago, yamato6945 said:

Because tier 8 premiums are worth more money they can sell her for 60 dollars vs what ever a lower tier would cost 

^  Pretty much this....

No reason to sell an OP carrier at tier 6, when tier 8 can be priced far higher....:Smile_teethhappy:

 

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T8 is 50$

T7 is 39$

There are enough collectors that want to have every premium.

Just do the math.

Most people thought she will be T7 when WG announces that the GZ will be ingame.

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42 minutes ago, Aetreus said:

Because GZ is a much more powerful ship than any T6 or T7 carrier. Her airwing was historically quite bad, but as a ship Graf Zeppelin is much, much stronger than Ranger, Saipan, and Hiryu, let alone any of the T6 carriers. Better AA, larger and more HP, partial armoring, meaningful self-defense secondaries. End result is that the ship would have to get a weak airwing and when tough CV with weak airwing was tried, it proved unfun for both sides of the equation(from what I know about Shinano).

This is kinda of a crap excuse, reason?

You left out the Kaga, you know.. the Aircraft carrier built ontop of a battleship which still has 10 203mm guns on the side. Which is tier 7.

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1 minute ago, Merlox said:

This is kinda of a crap excuse, reason?

You left out the Kaga, you know.. the Aircraft carrier built ontop of a battleship which still has 10 203mm guns on the side. Which is tier 7.

Kaga is slow and has fairly limited AA relative to GZ. Also, 5 203mm and 6 127mm on a side are no comparison to 8 150mm and 12 105mm, especially given that the IJN secondaries are not particularly fast-firing.

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For her secondary&armor, for great German technology(nope)

A cv can tank shell in tier 6( ̄▽ ̄)

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21 minutes ago, Aetreus said:

Kaga is slow and has fairly limited AA relative to GZ. Also, 5 203mm and 6 127mm on a side are no comparison to 8 150mm and 12 105mm, especially given that the IJN secondaries are not particularly fast-firing.

Sure Kaga goes a tiny bit slower than the ranger, but the Graf zep still isn't lightning fast for tier 7 CVs. The AA is also is pretty comparable at long range. Loses a tiny bit of DPS for increased range. The Kaga loses on the 2nd fight because WG's biased for german 2nd but at the end of the day the aircraft carriers are going to die against most ships that get close enough. The Graf Zep has protection against DDs that like to dock next to them and drop torps.

but the thing that kills this for me is that they could have easily put graf zep to tier 6 or 7 based on it's airload. They had to keep the complete fantasy airload because of that 60$ pricetag. It should have had a less powerful Airgroup and be thrown down a tier at least.  

It would have been interesting to see a new concept of CV at a lower tier than just seeing a new boring CV at tier 8 that has the 1 shot kill potential on specific ships.

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WG uses a blend of fairly hard-fixed historic stats and softer ones to determine tiering.

  • HP is based on displacement - GZ is between Shokaku and Lexington hence T8 is sensible
  • Armor is per historic - GZ does ok by T8 standards there fore what it's worth
  • Armament is per historic - GZ does ok there at T8
  • Speed is per historic - GZ is fine in the T7-T8 and up range on that metric

All the other factors, specifics on number of planes (based apparently on hangar size + ?), plane types, plane armament - all seems entirely soft and at least does not prohibit a T8 GZ.

Therefore, T8 is fairly sensible.

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13 minutes ago, Merlox said:

Sure Kaga goes a tiny bit slower than the ranger, but the Graf zep still isn't lightning fast for tier 7 CVs. The AA is also is pretty comparable at long range. Loses a tiny bit of DPS for increased range. The Kaga loses on the 2nd fight because WG's biased for german 2nd but at the end of the day the aircraft carriers are going to die against most ships that get close enough. The Graf Zep has protection against DDs that like to dock next to them and drop torps.

Umm, 4 knots is not a tiny bit. That makes GZ a ship capable of not quite but almost fleeing cruisers, while Kaga will be run down by all the cruisers and many battleships as well. It's a big difference. YMMV on the long range AA, but the rest of the AA fit is clearly in GZ's favor. Secondary guns are also a huge wash in Graf's favor, even if they had the same range and Kaga got HE in the 203mm. Graf has nearly twice the number of 150mm per side as Kaga has 203mm, and they fire at double the rate. And GZ is able to fire all of her 105's at a single target, while Kaga can only fire half. It's really no contest.

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12 minutes ago, Aetreus said:

Umm, 4 knots is not a tiny bit. That makes GZ a ship capable of not quite but almost fleeing cruisers, while Kaga will be run down by all the cruisers and many battleships as well. It's a big difference. YMMV on the long range AA, but the rest of the AA fit is clearly in GZ's favor. Secondary guns are also a huge wash in Graf's favor, even if they had the same range and Kaga got HE in the 203mm. Graf has nearly twice the number of 150mm per side as Kaga has 203mm, and they fire at double the rate. And GZ is able to fire all of her 105's at a single target, while Kaga can only fire half. It's really no contest.

You guys are completely dodging the whole argument here. The Ship was good, but the graf's aircraft capacity and technology was absolutely garbage.

The Graf Zep was proposed to hold 42 planes at most, the hanger was a nightmare. It should have been a tough CV with a mediocre loadout. instead of a fantasy loadout.

The Graf Zep still loses to almost all ships if the graf zep gets into range of other ships.  Even when dipping to the lower tiers it could see thanks to the 2nd guns having a 6.3 km range instead of the 7.5 (Bismark / Tirpitz)

Edited by Merlox

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2 minutes ago, Merlox said:

You guys are completely dodging the whole argument here. The Ship was good, but the graf's aircraft capacity and technology was absolutely garbage.

The Graf Zep was proposed to hold 42 planes at most, the hanger was a nightmare. It should have been a tough CV with a mediocre loadout. instead of a fantasy loadout.

The Graf Zep still loses to almost all ships if the graf zep gets into range of other ships.  Even when dipping to the lower tiers it could see thanks to the 2nd guns having a 6.3 km range instead of the 7.5 (Bismark / Tirpitz)

That's 100% irrelevant to how the ship is actually tiered though. What aircraft and how many are carried is immensely variable depending on what aircraft are presumed to be carried, what limitations on flight operations are being considered, and whatever decisions WG makes for balancing. GZ as a ship is far harder to change than whatever aircraft GZ carries. And again: WG has tried in the past to make tough CV's that have weak airwings. It didn't work out.

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2 minutes ago, Aetreus said:

That's 100% irrelevant to how the ship is actually tiered though. What aircraft and how many are carried is immensely variable depending on what aircraft are presumed to be carried, what limitations on flight operations are being considered, and whatever decisions WG makes for balancing. GZ as a ship is far harder to change than whatever aircraft GZ carries. And again: WG has tried in the past to make tough CV's that have weak airwings. It didn't work out.

Aircraft hanger and planes is 100% irrelevant to how an aircraft carrier is tiered? You're acting like the Graf Zep's main problem right now is that it's a battleship tank. It'll still lose to almost every thing if it was trying to just use it's 2nd guns. If they made the guns at 5.3 (Same as Scharn / Gnies) would you still feel it's tier 8 worthy? Or does it suddenly become tier 7 because the guns are the same as the upgraded B haul gnies 2nd guns.

The main reason why people are angry is that this ship has a stupid fantasy air load out (Larger than it could ever hold, and with planes that germany never finished developing) that can 1 shot ships in the game by random dumb luck to justify a 60$+ pricetag.

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2 hours ago, yamato6945 said:

Because tier 8 premiums are worth more money they can sell her for 60 dollars vs what ever a lower tier would cost 

Ding da ding ding DINGLALING.

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1 minute ago, Merlox said:

Aircraft hanger and planes is 100% irrelevant to how an aircraft carrier is tiered? You're acting like the Graf Zep's main problem right now is that it's a battleship tank. It'll still lose to almost every thing if it was trying to just use it's 2nd guns. If they made the guns at 5.3 (Same as Scharn / Gnies) would you still feel it's tier 8 worthy? Or does it suddenly become tier 7 because the guns are the same as the upgraded B haul gnies 2nd guns.

Ingame? No. As a real ship? Absolutely. WG can and has almost completely arbitrarily set a carrier's airwing, and it's one of the things that real carriers could quite easily change for that matter. GZ is as a ship, T8. She is similar in technical terms to T8 carriers, similar dimensions, similar armament, similar speed. Hence in game making her a carrier with an airwing around T8 is better than either giving her a weak airwing at T7 to compensate for the ship's strengths, or any other option to make her higher/lower tier.

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The planes that Graf Zeppelin were to have were so obsolete, the F4F Wildcats on Tier V Bogue should have made a joke of them.  Instead, those Bf109T's are buffed to be competitive for Tier VIII.  Those planes GZ were to have were obsolete even before Pearl Harbor.  In WoWS, they will evenly compete with F6F Hellcats, etc.

 

This is a ship that proves that you could fudge the numbers around to whatever you want to make a ship, weapon fit a tier.

 

The secondaries are just that... secondary to the main purpose of a Carrier, which is naval airpower.  GZ will be fine with her greatly artificially, inflated air group and obsolete airplanes buffed to ahistorical levels to make it competitive.  This thing should have been a Tier VI CVL at best.

 

Ryujo and Independence would have wiped the floor of this thing's air groups.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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