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ASR37

How do I DD better against CVs

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Hello guys, I consider myself fairly new to the game and extra new to the DD captain role. I'm just looking to get a bit of feedback on a topic I haven't found a ton of information on. Perhaps I am not googling the correct tags so forgive me if this is one of those dead horse topics.

 

Last night I was in the Mahan when I found myself in a T8 CV match. However, there were only 1 T8 BB and 1T8 CA per side. The rest of the teams consisting of T6s and T7s. The map was Two Brothers in the standard map.

 

I spawned on the North West corner of the map and proceeded south with a fellow DD with plans to spot what we were up against and take out any DDs if the opportunity was ripe. Just as I am getting where I should be able to start seeing enemy ships, I find there are all of the enemy Lexington's squadrons heading to my AO. I made sure my AA was off and proceeded to try to stay out of detection range but to no avail. Some how I barely survived two dive bomber drops and barley missed a torp drop.

At this point I tried to probe a little deeper as only 3 BBs had been spotted on the enemy side, but soon headed a bit closer to my main fleet in the NW corner for AA support around the time enemy planes would be back in the area so as to not make my same early mistake.

 

This is when the match became frustrating. I would see enemy squadrons heading our way and I would run back to the 7 ships in the NW corner for AA support. None of which had moved down very much at all. The bombers would attack a single ship and head back home to their CV. I would proceed to head south and spot what I can and try to get into torp range of their BBs. I could only close the gap to 12-14 KM before once again here come the planes to hurt another one of our ships. This happened several times over with the only difference being me and my fellow DD spotted an enemy DD and we were able to get guns on him long enough to take him out. Towards the end of the game our guys won the battle on the East, despite being outnumber which convinced our NW fleet to finally move down on these three BBs. I push south retreating to our New Orleans AA bubble when planes were coming to spot/strike. As we closed in, the enemy CV finally took me out with one last dive bomb adding to my frustration.

 

Being there were only a couple of T8s per team, it seemed like no one had the capability to shoot down either sides planes at any kind of effective rate. PLEASE understand I am not complaining "CVs are OP!". I have just been thinking and trying to figure out how I can be more useful to my team in a situation like this. I guess it is a good thing that the enemy CV wasted time and resources on me, but he also destroyed a lot of our ships. I was honestly so frustrated that the enemy CV had halted my advances and rendered me basically useless to my team for the entire match. Do you guys have any tips on how to be more effective when up against CVs who are harassing you?

 

Thanks!

Edited by ASR37

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If you have a CV that wants to make your day miserable, your choices are limited... unless you're in an AA DD like the Kidd or Groz.

Since stealth is your biggest asset in a DD, having planes constantly spotting you or your torpedoes really kills your effectiveness. Just gotta stick with AA ships or hope that the CV leaves you alone. 

A couple general pointers though...

-Keep your AA off until the planes have spotted you. Turn it back on and try to dissuade the planes from just idling above you. Turn it back off when they leave. Sounds obvious, but a LOT of people don't do this.

-Some DDs can actually out-turn torp planes by steering away from them. This can sometimes frustrate a CV player into a premature drop, but if you're unable to out-turn them, it's best to turn in. It takes some practice, but often times the best way to dodge torpedoes is to sail in a straight-ish line until they start their drop approach. As soon as the planes have committed, slam on the brakes and turn in hard. Turning helps drop your speed quicker such that the torps will often miss completely. Additionally, reducing your speed makes your turns tighter so you're able to "get skinny" quicker. HOWEVER, if a CV is trying to cross drop you, cutting your throttle completely isn't a good idea because it leaves you as a sitting duck for the second drop. 

I typically take the acceleration mod instead of the rudder shift mod on all my DDs to help with the maneuvers mentioned above. Throttle control is really one of the most effective ways to avoid taking damage, whether it be from planes or ships. 

Hope that helps! o7

Edited by Kombat_W0MBAT
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Thanks for the tips! A clanmate told me about the braking turn just a couple of days ago and if it wasn't for that I would have been obliterated in the first few minutes on that initial torp drop. Very good tip!

 

As far as turning your AA back on - When you start firing at enemy planes, how much does that effect spotting after the planes have left your air detection range? If they leave your air detection range should you quickly turn AA off again? Or is there some kind of muzzle flash mechanic similar to firing guns?

Edited by ASR37

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As a general tip, be sure to turn on your detection from air ring and turn off your AA guns until you need them. Sometimes if you watch the mini map, you can get out of the way of a slight of planes before they see you. They can't harrass what they don't find. 

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13 minutes ago, ASR37 said:

Thanks for the tips! A clanmate told me about the braking turn just a couple of days ago and if it wasn't for that I would have been obliterated in the first few minutes on that initial torp drop. Very good tip!

 

As far as turning your AA back on - When you start firing at enemy planes, how much does that effect spotting after the planes have left your air detection range? If they leave your air detection range should you quickly turn AA off again? Or is there some kind of muzzle flash mechanic similar to firing guns?

 

AA doesn't have a 20s detection bloom like your main battery does, so turning it off and on has no consequences.

The tactic of toggling your AA off and on is used ONLY if your AA range is greater than your air detection range. If your AA range is less than or equal to your air detection range, just leave it on at all times.

You can see all these ranges by pressing "H" in game. Additionally, you can add a myriad of informative "rings" to the mini-map so you have a visual reference in the heat of battle. Ctrl+LMB the gear icon above the minimap and select the rings you want added. It can get a bit cluttered if you're not used to it, but it's valuable information. 

Edited by Kombat_W0MBAT

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Damn good tips  from @Kombat_W0MBAT.

The only thing I would add to his tips is the possibility of hitting engine boost right when the planes are just about to drop their torps. It goes along with the strategy of slowing down, or speeding up when they are about to drop. Between all of those suggestions, you really just need to find out what works best for you in that particular situation.

Another tactic that you might have overlooked is simply don't be where the enemy planes are. At the beginning of a battle, you should never rush in under any circumstances. Push in yes, but don't make a bee line at warp speed.

Give yourself some time to see where the planes are located, then make a decision if you should move to another location. The majority of the time, a CV Captain will move his planes after the first initial "spotting phase" if he doesn't see anything around. 

Ping the map over the planes, and use your hotkey to ask for air support. If your CV is worth his salt, he should at least try to push them away.

You also have your smoke. When you blink out of detection in your smoke, turn (or do anything) to change the direction of where you were heading when you were detected last. Always be moving either forwards or backwards in your smoke regardless of anything.

Overall, the best way to deal with CVs is to simply not be where the planes are.

 

 

Edited by Wulfgarn
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6 minutes ago, Wulfgarn said:

Overall, the best way to deal with CVs is to simply not be where the planes are.

 

 

Hmm, I reckon I could have snuck down the 1 line as a couple of BBs where huddled down there hiding behind an island. Now that I think of it, their planes only really went down the big open area. In the particular match, that would be the only real option to try and avoid them. Their CV was good at looking at last known locations and scouting damn near every inch it seemed. But most matches I would assume the reds would eventually make some kind of push and being out in the 1 line isnt gonna help me spot much with islands in the way.

 

At the same time I could be surprised by other ships that I wouldnt be expecting in those islands since we could never get close enough to spot CAs or DDs. Going that far away from the fleet just seems risky.

 

This game is so much educated guess work dependent on very particular situations, a big mental game of risk/reward, as well as a hint of luck.. Its gonna take me a while to figure it all out lol.

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4 minutes ago, ASR37 said:

Hmm, I reckon I could have snuck down the 1 line as a couple of BBs where huddled down there hiding behind an island. Now that I think of it, their planes only really went down the big open area. In the particular match, that would be the only real option to try and avoid them. Their CV was good at looking at last known locations and scouting damn near every inch it seemed. But most matches I would assume the reds would eventually make some kind of push and being out in the 1 line isnt gonna help me spot much with islands in the way.

 

At the same time I could be surprised by other ships that I wouldnt be expecting in those islands since we could never get close enough to spot CAs or DDs. Going that far away from the fleet just seems risky.

 

This game is so much educated guess work dependent on very particular situations, a big mental game of risk/reward, as well as a hint of luck.. Its gonna take me a while to figure it all out lol.

Just keep in mind that each battle is a learning experience and don't get too discouraged. Once you go through all of this, it'll become second nature.

One suggestion I forgot to make is to watch some of the Tubers covering wows.

Notser and Flamu are more on the top of the scale, and they cover pretty much all Types and Lines.

Flambass is a DD main (Notser as well) and the majority of vids are in DDs.

farazelleth is one of the top CV'rs in the game. It's not a bad idea to know your enemy.

Just keep an eye out on the dates any vids were put out, it's possible an update might have changed something. 

I learned a great deal watching tactics from these guys, I've even made my own based off of theirs.

The best advice I can give you for dealing with anything in the game as a DD is to not rush in under any circumstances until you know where the dangers are. That goes for planes, other DDs, and most importantly, radar ships. 

Your primary objectives are to spot, and survive.

 

 

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I don't generally set out to hunt CVs but if the cap situation is under control and I happen to stumble across a CV with little to no help from his teammates I might go after them...

High tier carriers are harder to hunt than low-mid tier carriers for several reasons...

  • High tier carriers can launch multiple torp bomber squadrons at once.  So if he targets you dodging torps is either very difficult or nearly impossible.
  • Some high tier carriers are VERY fast.  I've had a DD on speed boost and chased a CV all over the map before.
  • If they have a high tier CV they probably know what they are doing.

Hunting CVs in a something like an Isokaze (T4) can actually be fairly easy.  A T8 CV is a different story...

That said, once I decide to go after a CV I don't run back for AA support.  I essentially go into YOLO mode.  That means...

  • As soon as the CV is spotted, hit speed boost.
  • Keep AA off until detected.
  • If you're not detected, sail in a straight line.  That's the fastest way.  Once you're detected start zig zagging in case enemy ships start targeting you.
  • As soon as your detected, start spamming HE onto the CV.  If he's on fire he can't launch planes.
  • You may be tempted to launch torps as soon as you are in torp range but I generally don't.  I keep pushing closer.  The closer you are the harder it will be for the CV to dodge.
  • That said, if he launches planes and they are coming towards me, I'll go ahead and launch torps if I'm in range.  I figure if his planes get me I still might get a flesh wound kill after I die.
  • Zig zag with speed boost on to avoid dive bombers.
  • Set manual focus on torp bombing squadrons and keep them in front of your ship.  It's best for them to drop torps in front of you where you can maneuver / dodge easier.
  • Do not hit repair until the planes are done bombing you.  I've made the mistake before of repairing after a dive bomber caught me on fire then ate one torp and flooded to death.  
  • If you are speeding towards the carrier spamming HE and eventually torps, you should only need to survive one airplane attack or maybe two if you're unlucky before you can take down the CV.

EDIT: Most importantly I didn't cover WHEN to go CV hunting.  I've seen some DDs get tunnel vision and go CV hunting at the onset of a match while ignoring every objective.  This is a good way to cause your team to lose.  Don't be that guy...  Here are the circumstances when I go CV hunting..

DD cap control isn't needed and DD spotting isn't needed and one or more of the following is true:

  • Enemy CV is in a dumb location all by himself.  I've literally seen a CV go up the middle on two brothers before...I kid you not...
  • Enemy CV is spotted and accessible without much protection.
  • Your own CV is either dead or completely outclassed.  I've had to break off early in a match to go CV hunting before because my teammates were getting killed by the enemy CV and our CV either couldn't or wouldn't stop them.  I ended up killing the enemy CV and saving the win.  If I had left our match with a huge CV disadvantage we would have lost for sure.
  • Cleanup... there are only 2-3 enemy ships left against your team's 6 ships and the enemy CV is one of them.  
Edited by _MiDKnighTx_
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Dont underestimate the power of an AA build US DD (or Lo Yang) 

 I run AA mods and skills on all of my US DD captains, as well as Def Fire. Planes go poof. There is no argument that the Kidd is the best at the role, but the C Hull Benson, Sims, Fletcher and the Lo Yang are excellent at killing planes. I had to learn to play against other ships more cautiously, but I think it actually made me a better DD player. I think my record in the Lo Yang is 41 planes. My one and only Clear Sky achievement is in an AA spec Gearing. 

Also, to reiterate what others have said, hitting the breaks and turning when you see the bombers circle is a crucial skill to master. It also works well at avoiding incoming artillery. For Torp Bombers, i try to always turn into them , that way the planes will cancel their run and try to readjust, or drop them parallel to my course. Sometimes a torp will hit but not detonate, maybe because it hasnt armed yet. I always wondered if that was a bug or intentional.

Good luck

Edited by SgtMajorBuzz

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Just a point about the CV on fire not being able to launch planes by that level it is more than likely they have a captain with the skill to be able to launch while on fire, doesn't mean don't try it but if you see him launching while burning better to keep pounding for the damage or try and go stealth and keep him spotted so some hungry long range main battery can chew him up.

As far as the trying to keep dropping down to spot then running back, (and I think it was already mentioned) I would have got out of his line to the fat targets he was after totally and wiggled into a different line of sight for spotting and opportunity targets.

Good hunting in the future!

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