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AyanoMidori

Proposal - Japanese cruiser split

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Hello everyone! 

I'm sure this has already popped up before, but I'd like to make (another?) proposal for Japanese cruiser
split! I'm not the developer here so I won't give hard stats, only suggestions. Anyways, I've been thinking about this for a while so here's what I got:

sNVnI3g.png

I was thinking the second line could have an AA focus and could become a part small portion of Japanese
ships that actually have decent and workable AA. I will elaborate soon.

Second line

Tier 4 - Nagara or Sendai class

bffVvYN.png
Sendai class
BJ3r8Qc.jpg
Nagara class

Functionally identical to the our existing Kuma class, the differences are in appearances. Some vessels of
these classes had late war AA refits which could be used to make them unique compared to Kuma, which
included the addition of dual purpose 5" mounts among the usual light AA that was added as the war
progressed.

(Personally I would've prefered one of these vessels became a premium rather than the fictional Iwaki)

Tier 5 - Agano class

TBsYMhp.jpg

Commissioned after the start of the war, the Aganos used spare 6" guns from the Kongo and Fuso class
battleships. They weren't well protected but were fast at a speed of 35 knots and carried a powerful torpedo
armemant.

The Agano class received heavy AA refits as the war progressed and should be a good representative for a
more AA focused line, and I believe that with Defensive AA she would make a great anti-aircraft cruiser for
her tier bracket.

Tier 6 -  Aganoi-Kai Design

9kY9Dbu.png

Kai-Agano, essentially an upgraded Agano with an extra aft turret.

I originally considered Oyodo, but her design was too radically different for the IJN cruiser formula, she is better suited as a premium.

Tier 7 - Tone class

7h671Ti.jpg

Many of us know Tone was originally in the game but the developers couldn't figure out what to do with her,
mostly due to how her floatplanes were handled. Like I said with Ooyodo, the simplest solution would be a
buff to her actual stats, rather than trying to turn her into a carrier/cruiser hybrid. Just like the previous ship,
Tone has all of her guns mounted forward, four twin 203mm guns. She's essentually a Mogami with one
less 203mm turret and more aircraft. 

Tier 8 - Takao class cruiser Maya

omxehjh.jpg

We already have two Takao classes in the game, I know, just hear me out. Maya is the third in her class,
what makes her rather unique was the removal of her third turret during one of her wartime refits, replacing it
with more AA mounts. This would almost be the pinnacle of an IJN AA cruiser line, as she actually loses
firepower for additional AA. Her AA would have to be really good to substitute the firepower and make her
unique compared to Atago.

Tier 9 - Ibuki class

Ibuki from the main line, I think, should be moved to our second line, primarily due to her AA. This ship
could really use a buff, while not bad, it's noticable the weakest tier 9 cruiser in the game. Perhaps a ROF
buff would be suitable, like maybe shaving off (3-4 seconds off her reload :D)

Tier 10 - B-65 class project ship

zZj6DvN.png

Design B-65 was a class of Super Type A cruisers[A 1] planned by the IJN before and during World War II.
As envisioned by the IJN, the cruisers were to play a key role in the Night Battle Force portion of the
"Decisive battle" strategy which Japan hoped, in the event of war, to employ against the United States
Navy.

Begun in 1939, plans were far enough along that tests were conducted with the main armament and
against the underwater protection. Even though the ships were approved for construction under a 1942 fleet
replenishment program, the prioritizing of aircraft carriers and smaller ships due to the war, followed by
Japan's defeat, killed any chance of the B-65's construction.

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_B-65_cruiser)

B-65 is essentially a battlecruiser. She was designed to mount 3x3 310mm guns (similiar to the upcoming
Stalingrad and Kronstadt), torpedoes and twin 100mm duel purpose mounts like those found on Akizuki
and Zao. A very strong AA suite already! In addition she had a 210mm main armor belt and had a maximum
speed of 33 knots.

I think B-65 would be a very suitable tier 10 (battle)cruiser.

Main line

Tier 9 - Takao (Choukai)

Ibuki would be moved to the second line, while another ship would take her place, this ship would be a
Takao class. This cruiser could be named Choukai, the fourth in her class, to avoid confusion with ARP
Takao.

Yes, yes, at this point we've added all four Takao class cruisers, but from the start I believed Takao
should've been at tier 9. To distinguish her from the tier 8 Atago, like Ibuki she could receive a similiar ROF
buff (shave off around 2-3 seconds on her reload). Choukai would get access to the tier 9 upgrade slot and in addition she could receive a moderate AA
buff, putting her almost on the same level as Ibuki.

Choukai would have a thicker armor belt, be ever so slightly faster, have better torpedo firing arcs, comparable AA and more range, while Ibuki has better turret
firing arcs, AA and a slightly quicker ROF.

Edited by AyanoMidori
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Would love to see these. Had much fun in Navyfield with the CL/CV aspect back in the day

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Nice. Regardless of what others think, I think you've stated your case and laid out your progression very logically, including that for the "paper" ship at the end (one of those sad cases of "We would have built her if only we'd had the money and the resources", as opposed to "check out what I've been smoking, and look at what I designed while I was smoking it"). 

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A few things.

Oyodo doesn't fit in the tech tree outside of premium no matter how you slice it. It's too abstract and you have it way too high up on a list for having only 6 guns forward with around the same armor as the Agano. It's only place would be a tier 4/5 Premium at best.

Agano is fine at tier 5, but tier 6 should be the Agano-Kai which goes well against the Leander.

Takao should not be a tier 9 and doesn't fit there at all. In reality, Ibuki doesn't really fit there but she got saddled their without another option. In all likelihood Ibuki would have to be abridge back to Zao. As for the B-65, that's a toss up due to the current testing.

 

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I want to also say I've only added Maya and Choukai into the tree to fill in the gaps so that the second line could actually reach tier 10. I don't want too many paper ships.

Also what do you guys think about having more Takaos?

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2 minutes ago, Azumazi said:

A few things.

Oyodo doesn't fit in the tech tree outside of premium no matter how you slice it. It's too abstract and you have it way too high up on a list for having only 6 guns forward with around the same armor as the Agano. It's only place would be a tier 4/5 Premium at best.

Agano is fine at tier 5, but tier 6 should be the Agano-Kai which goes well against the Leander.

Takao should not be a tier 9 and doesn't fit there at all. In reality, Ibuki doesn't really fit there but she got saddled their without another option. In all likelihood Ibuki would have to be abridge back to Zao. As for the B-65, that's a toss up due to the current testing.

 

Simple buffs to Takao, such as ROF, AA and armor extremities would allow her to fit at tier 9 in my opinion. I already say Atago is just as good as Ibuki. 

Edited by AyanoMidori

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looks good except for tier 4.....Nagara class weighted 5500 tons, Sendai weighted 7100 tons. Maybe have Nagara as a tier 4 premmy? She's too strong for tier 3

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Good food for thought. Ibuki at T9 in essentially a CL line is inconsistent with 8" guns

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2 minutes ago, AyanoMidori said:

Simple buffs to Takao, such as ROF, AA and armor extremities would allow her to fit at tier 9 in my opinion. I already say Atago is just as good as Ibuki. 

Which isn't saying much when Ibuki is one of the worst tier 9 Cruisers currently in the game. There is a reason why many people just free XP past her to get to Zao ASAP. The only other cruiser that gets hated on a lot is Neptune, and sure enough it's down near the bottom with Ibuki.

The only way Takao works at tier 9 is if shes running the Maya fitting with the added Type 89 guns, possibly some 40mm Bofors, and they give those 8 guns a rate of fire of 10 sec reload. As it stands now, Takao would just be more meat for the grinder vs Roon and Saint-Louis

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The second line has heavy cruisers from tier 7, with Tone and Maya.

Edited by AyanoMidori

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4 minutes ago, Azumazi said:

Which isn't saying much when Ibuki is one of the worst tier 9 Cruisers currently in the game. There is a reason why many people just free XP past her to get to Zao ASAP. The only other cruiser that gets hated on a lot is Neptune, and sure enough it's down near the bottom with Ibuki.

The only way Takao works at tier 9 is if shes running the Maya fitting with the added Type 89 guns, possibly some 40mm Bofors, and they give those 8 guns a rate of fire of 10 sec reload. As it stands now, Takao would just be more meat for the grinder vs Roon and Saint-Louis

I cannot think of anything but a hard buff to Ibuki and a Takao at tier 9.

I put Maya in the second line because of her emphasis on AA. Choukai being at tier 9 because of a faster gun reload, stronger AA (because like Ibuki she would receive the Bofors Chi in her final hull) and also get access to the tier 9 upgrade slot.

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Very nice gathering of information, however I feel like you did not implement them properly in a way that would make this tree interesting from a gameplay perspective. When we have splitted lines they evolve into lines that are fundamentally different.

Take the soon(tm) announced USN Cruiser split as example, where one line consists of heavy Cruisers and the other one of Light Cruisers. 

 

 

Let‘s apply this idea of two different lines to the ships you propose:

Tier 4, perfectly fine.

Tier 5, perfectly fine. Note how we have a split here into Light and Heavy Cruisers.

Tier 6, to be honest, Ooyodo is too much of a weird beast to fit here. She is the only Cruiser past Tenryuu to not have Torpedoes. As a Premium she‘d do fine, but in the line she‘s not that suitable. Perhabs an improved Agano-design here?

Tier 7, the Tone is actually a very nice idea. However as an aviation Cruiser by design I would fear that her potential for unique gameplay might get lost in this. Making a Tone a Light Cruiser is fairly possible using her designed armament of four 155mm triple turrets.

At Tier 8 I would critizise some of your choices. First being Maya, I doubt her positioning at T8. She‘d need major buffs to fit in there due to her low barrel count. Her AA, while being good for an IJN ship, is by no means good in comparison to Admiral Hipper, Prinz Eugen or the Kutuzow.

And well, if to make a CL/CA split then Mogami would be perfect as a CL.

Tier 9 and 10 there is so much paper that I would first need to make deep research :p

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5 minutes ago, SireneRacker said:

 

I do agree with you on Ooyodo and Kai-Agano, but like I said I wanted to avoid too many paper ships.

I've also thought about the possibility of making Tone a tier 6 and Maya a tier 7, but that leaves a gap for tier 8. At most WG could resort to fictional designs but I absolutely hate that. 

Edited by AyanoMidori

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Ooyodo is the only ship I want from this suggested split but as others have said, she would likely only be a premium as she is so different from other IJN Cruisers. 

If Molotov can work at tier 6, then a buffed 155 (even only 6) can be made to work there as well. 

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Oyodo is out of place, but the rest of it is feasible.

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1 minute ago, AyanoMidori said:

I do agree with you on Ooyodo and Kai-Agano, but like I said I wanted to avoid too many paper ships.

I've also thought about the possibility of making Tone a tier 6 and Maya a tier 7, but that leaves a gap for tier 8. At most WG could resort to fictional designs but I absolutely hate that. 

At Tier 8 there is the Option to put Takao into the CA line, in a similar Fashion as they are trying right now to differenciate between Hipper and Eugen Balance her to Atago. 

So just to get some numbers out of the tip of my head giving Takao a 14.5s reload and a better AA, while Atago has the heal.

Mogami would fit into the CL line rather nicely, if she just sticks to her 155mm guns.

As it is right now we have only Atago in the game, and then a clone of her. So Takao could still get represented as herself, not as an Anime-based clone.

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Would love to see a IJN Crusier Split like that in you proposal.

Thanks,

Sere_Pj

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Nice job! +1 for the detailed proposal, history and analysis behind it.

While I’m not sure a line split is merited here, I can see 3 of these ships making it into the game as (possibly) Premiums. Their tiers may be modified based on what WG decides to do w/ the ship parameters.

  • Ooyodo - like your tiering (I.e. Aoba parallel)  as a cruiser version of a Dunk/Nelson turret concept.
  • Tone - agree w/ your assessment that she might be best served as focusing on her 4 triple turrets instead of trying to incorporate her “hybrid air-cruiser” if she gets finally introduced into the game.
  • B-65 Battle cruiser concept - Since this ship class  was the incentive that the USN Alaska’s were developed to counter, it’s fitting that they should also be introduced, given the interest in when the Alaska will be added to the game.
Edited by hangglide42

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The Air capability could be handled along the lines of launching a squadron of Fighters (or maybe Dive Bombers) and instead of having the CV UI you have a modified version of the Click to designate a focus target and they will go off and intercept for Fighters or do a auto drop in the case of bombers. Un-designated Fighters could simple do a CAP over where you are sailing untl they are assigned or run out of ammo/ are destroyed.

Unassigned DBs would be treated as a squadron of spotters (with normal DB self defense ratings) until focused on a target.

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Great effort!

I've taken a crack at one of these before, so this is familiar territory. Overall your tier IV & V I agree with, but from then on we're in slight disagreement lol.

 

Ooyodo is kind of an odd ship, but unfortunately just doesn't fit into the game well, especially not among Japanese cruisers. She might be better off as a premium, or, perhaps, some kind of aviation line if WG gets around to it (although last I heard I think that project is KIA in development, in favor of fixing other aspects of the game). Her gunpower is probably overall better than Agano on a per-shell basis, but at the end of the day it's only six rifles, and it's all focused in the bow - so she can't kite enemy ships easily. Furthermore, she lacks torpedoes, otherwise a staple among Japanese ships. This causes her not only to be a kind of weak ship, but also to not fit very well with any IJN cruiser line flavor.

My preference when I did my version of the line (there's a link if you follow the one in my signature if you want to get a more detailed version of what I'm talking about. Pictures in that thread are all broken, however) was the Agano-Kai/C-44. A 4x2 version of Agano, she's got more health, and I sort of fudged things to say she's have ammo hoist upgrades so she could make 8 rpm. Her main edge compared to her CA counterpart (Aoba, the other tier VI IJN cruiser) was not only her more numerous higher-RoF but lower-caliber guns, but her better stealth, AA, and torpedoes. 

Tier VII is honestly a hard one, and I never found any actual design that fit well there I ended up slotting in a concept ship of WG's that I don't think was actually real... but basically it was the originally Furutaka armed with a 6x2 battery of 140mm gun.

Tier VIII I had actually swapped out tier VIII's. I replaced Mogami with Takao in the CA line, and put Mogami in as the tier VIII CL, which could then upgrade into the 203mm guns, and then from there on both lines would blend again into Ibuki (I hadn't made my own tier 9 and 10 as I hadn't found anything).

I'm somewhat in agreement with Azumazi on Takao at tier VIII. Atago is kind of like Eugen - she used to be considered a very 'meh' tier VIII cruiser with her base stats, until she got the heal, and became strong.

Put at tier IX, I'm not sure she'd really perform well. The heal is no longer special, and the ship just isn't that special anymore.

 

Your use of B-65 is interesting, I hadn't really considered it, but then I did my version of this over a year ago, so times change :Smile_teethhappy:. With the advent of the Russian 'large cruisers' in the game, I'd have to re-evaluate, but that's very much going to be a 'wait and see' on how Kronshtadt does.

 

Otherwise, I'm not sure if there's many options for truly CLs at high tier (which is why I hand blended it back in to the CA line at tier IX).

 

Spoiler

1q1JX5G.png

 

This was my approach for the line. Tokachi was the name I used for C-44/Kai-Agano, while Nakano was the name I used for the Furutaka CL.

Takao was Takao as we know it, minus a heal and turret traverse in favor of RoF and AA

 

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30 minutes ago, Phoenix_jz said:

Great effort!

I've taken a crack at one of these before, so this is familiar territory. Overall your tier IV & V I agree with, but from then on we're in slight disagreement lol.

 

Ooyodo is kind of an odd ship, but unfortunately just doesn't fit into the game well, especially not among Japanese cruisers. She might be better off as a premium, or, perhaps, some kind of aviation line if WG gets around to it (although last I heard I think that project is KIA in development, in favor of fixing other aspects of the game). Her gunpower is probably overall better than Agano on a per-shell basis, but at the end of the day it's only six rifles, and it's all focused in the bow - so she can't kite enemy ships easily. Furthermore, she lacks torpedoes, otherwise a staple among Japanese ships. This causes her not only to be a kind of weak ship, but also to not fit very well with any IJN cruiser line flavor.

My preference when I did my version of the line (there's a link if you follow the one in my signature if you want to get a more detailed version of what I'm talking about. Pictures in that thread are all broken, however) was the Agano-Kai/C-44. A 4x2 version of Agano, she's got more health, and I sort of fudged things to say she's have ammo hoist upgrades so she could make 8 rpm. Her main edge compared to her CA counterpart (Aoba, the other tier VI IJN cruiser) was not only her more numerous higher-RoF but lower-caliber guns, but her better stealth, AA, and torpedoes. 

Tier VII is honestly a hard one, and I never found any actual design that fit well there I ended up slotting in a concept ship of WG's that I don't think was actually real... but basically it was the originally Furutaka armed with a 6x2 battery of 140mm gun.

Tier VIII I had actually swapped out tier VIII's. I replaced Mogami with Takao in the CA line, and put Mogami in as the tier VIII CL, which could then upgrade into the 203mm guns, and then from there on both lines would blend again into Ibuki (I hadn't made my own tier 9 and 10 as I hadn't found anything).

I'm somewhat in agreement with Azumazi on Takao at tier VIII. Atago is kind of like Eugen - she used to be considered a very 'meh' tier VIII cruiser with her base stats, until she got the heal, and became strong.

Put at tier IX, I'm not sure she'd really perform well. The heal is no longer special, and the ship just isn't that special anymore.

 

Your use of B-65 is interesting, I hadn't really considered it, but then I did my version of this over a year ago, so times change :Smile_teethhappy:. With the advent of the Russian 'large cruisers' in the game, I'd have to re-evaluate, but that's very much going to be a 'wait and see' on how Kronshtadt does.

 

Otherwise, I'm not sure if there's many options for truly CLs at high tier (which is why I hand blended it back in to the CA line at tier IX).

 

  Hide contents

1q1JX5G.png

 

This was my approach for the line. Tokachi was the name I used for C-44/Kai-Agano, while Nakano was the name I used for the Furutaka CL.

Takao was Takao as we know it, minus a heal and turret traverse in favor of RoF and AA

 

I don't think WG would want two ships that diverge into one, because it would make one completely irrelevant. Going by your version we would need a tier 9, which is why I suggested a buffed Takao class.

 

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I would think the IJN cruisers will see a CL/CA split similar to the US split.  I don't think the other countries can have full tree splits without becoming pure fantasy and partial trees would probably make more sense for them

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I think I share some of the tiering concerns of others.

I also think it might be better to reverse the T10's. You have the line with more light cruisers (and which could have even more if you went with a 155mm Tone and 155mm Mogami) ending in the heaviest ship in B-65. It might make more sense to have the Heavy Cruiser line terminate there.

On the other hand I'm not perfectly sold on B-65 as a T10 cruiser, I think she would generate some balancing issues both ways. The Stalingrad/Krondstadt experiment looks like a bit of a mistake to me.

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thank you for sharing this. WG developers should take note of this.

Edited by zippychippy

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