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HyenaHiena

Carrier re-work propose

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Hello,some people know me as hyena in this game, i play sinse the closed, I love (and sometimes hate) this game, and love carriers, i know sometimes is frustrating play versus and with carriers, sadily still is the most unbalanced class (in my opinion), the balance in carriers flow over updates making or “op” or “useless”, at point we dont even see any news about new lines

So, i wanna give some sugestions for make a better balance.

 

  • First some problems with this class gameplay:
  • -          Extreme unbalance in between ijn and usn line.
  • -          Hard gameplay
  • -          Hard learning curve
  • -          The skill gap influence excessive a match (makes too easy or too hard to a good/bad player do something)
  • -          Strafe is too strong in the hands of a good player.
  • -          Loadouts totaly unbalance the lines between nations.
  • -          Too much groups vs too less groups.
  • -          AP bombs are extreme good or extreme trash, its gonna depend a lot from the MM give you some targers to use it.
  • -          Long reload time in high tiers.
  • -          Bad secondaries in high tiers.
  • -          Slow comands.

So, that is what i think the “biggest” problens today between lines, so, my sugestions:

 

  1. Change the squad number and planes per/squad.

As fun and interessing is have diferent loadouts, its not works for balance, the carriers need alread balance the planes status, the dmg from bombs torpedos, the hp, the ship, the hangar, a LOT stuff, what i propose is... keep the louadout the same for all carriers. Thats going start a good base for all lines for all new nations without mess a lot with the balance in that part. Lets say:

  • Sugestions for loadouts:

     

Tier – Fighter – Torpedo bomber – Drop bomber : planes in group

T4 1-1-1 : 4 planes in group

T5 1-1-2 : 4 planes in group

T6 2-1-2 : 5 planes in group

T7/8 2-2-2 : 5 planes in group

T9/X 2-2-2 : 6 planes in group

 

[I know some ijn cv playes will hate me but i think less groups is better for introduce more people to play this game as a carrier (easy to play for everone!)]

 

“ok but thats looks boring, same loadout for everone what the point for diferent lines?”

I’m happy you ask random comander! Then the “national flavor” comes in!

 

Lets say, usn have more strong fighters? So, the usn can get +1 fighters in his groups with more HP and DMG but slower.

“but hyena, thats not going make the ijn fighter useless again?”

Then what we know from common sense from ijn fighters?  They are fast, great manouver but  weak. So make the ijn fighters a bit weaker but faster, so can play as “hit and run”! yay tatics!

 

When you start making +2+3 planes difference on group you start making they “overpowed” versus other group. This big gap is even bigger when player know what he doing, reduce that difference, make some strong and some weak points and let players start learn for play with that points to get an advantage, not start giving the house in the hands of the player, give the wood for he make a good house or a terrible one.

The same logic can apply to all groups (fighters, torpedo bombers, bombers), some planes can be stronger, some faster, some carry better bombs, some carry better torpedos, some with a better detection, etc etc etc.

You can mess a lot with that for make interessing and diferent gameplay without mess with the base, so ever new line the new player only need learn the weak and strong point for his planes (like a bb need learn his main guns).

 

     2. Upgrade the groups, not everthing at same time.

 

The player need be able to choise what he want in a group for each group of planes. I’m talking about be able for exemple take 1 torpedo bomber with AP and one with HE. This gonna make cvs more dynamic and interessing.

Exemple of upgrade:

image.png.45c8ecee2664a546a208d080c010348d.png

     3. Learning curve:

Play –right- with carriers is HARD, make something like that:

The tier 4-5 the player need learn how-to-atack (give the manual drop back!).

The tier 6 the player need learn how-to-use his fighters better (strafe!)

The tier 7-8 how-to-make crossdrops.

 

           4. The Strafe problem

Strafe is a powerfull mechanic for cvs make more impact in the game BUT in the hands of a good player its become one OP mechanic for totaly stop the other cv for playing, thats NOT good for the game, its NOT good become totaly useless because one player. Today a good player can only strafe, strafe, strafe again, and kill all the enemy planes without lost or need more reload the planes, thats not cool (well, it is for the good player, but its not cool to everone else).

I propose 2 solutions for this problem:

A.      Reduce the strafe power. – Its okay, but still the ‘strafe strafe strafe’ problem.

B.      Make the strafe powerfull BUT a “high risk” use, i mean, make the strafe use at least 50% of fighter ammo, thats going reduce the “strafe everthing” and the gap between 2 players. You still can strafe and kill one plane (great reward!) group but you go put in risk your fighters (less ammo), and if you miss its going have a huge impact (free enemy group for make dmg or kill your fighters), so you going need use more carefull

 

     5. AP bombs and deep torpedos

Deep torpedos are useless, for real, if not hit dds are useless, for a carrier impact the game and have a high chances to win he/she need learn to kill dds, if you wanna make deep torpedos interessing you going need give some kind of advantage, like, deep torpedos? The planes going be stronger and the torpedos going have a high chance to flood.

Ap bombs, is... well... sometimes is fun, sometimes is useless, need be something more in between this both, like less dmg but maybe make a flood if overpen the ship? Today they are “over” good vs some targer but useless vs the major part of ships

 

                6. RNG in drop bombers

     Thats. Just. Terrible. It is, its terrible depends a lot from RNG in your bombs, its not like the torpedos, you atack you know you going make some dmg, but the bombs is something like “oh look, you make a lot dmg, or you dont make nothing”. Carriers need time to time to atack and its frustating drop and not hit any bomb, or hit and make... 3k dmg... wow... such useless!

      Make the minimum dmg higher and maybe the higher dmg less.

      

            7. Drops.

The national flavor cam come to make another interessing thing, diferent ways of drops. Like that:

image.png.a4d58cdb2f95a5938c6033823c9058b3.png

                  8. Lose all planes.

Thats terrible to any cv, stay without planes is like a bb lose all his guns. And can only show the “over” domination from a unicum cv over a potato one.

One interessing ideia, make a consumable like “call for more planes” and recive some new groups from out of map to keep in fight! Maybe?

I dont really think its need that but its an interessing ideia.

 

    9. Slow commands problem.

Sometimes planes is slow for make some commands, like get out when the enemy strafe out with a fighter (and strafe you with another fighter). Make it faster!

 

    10. Also, the commands.

You alread try press “shift” to select the groups and press 1 to 9 in your keyboard? Its... distant. Maybe space bar is better?

Also, the “alt” for manual atack, maybe use “F” is better.

Just a sugestion, need test here, i use a extra button on my mouse for manual atack, but thats not the case to everone.

 

  11. Spot everthing.

As fun and good it is be able to perma-spot everthing on the game, its bad to overal and your tean become over dependent from the carrier informations. Maybe you can make the cv only spot for the player himself (like in cyclone), one icon in ships to show if they is spoted for the team, and add a button to inform the location of some ship is team comands (thats one interessing interaction of carrier and team). Also keep the torpedos from dd spoted only if the plane is from some distant from they (lets say 3km?) i think thats going make the life of dds a bit better in matches with carriers and you going need choise keep the torpedo spoted (giving a better chance to your tean not get hit but give a chance for the dd run) or the dd (giving a chance to your tean kill him but get hit by his torpedos).

 

12. Carriers need more AA for less snipe.

Snipe in early game totaly kill the balance in the match, thats need go out. The AA consumable is ok for high tiers, but the sealclub is strong in the mid-tiers, give a more chance to this new-players play.

 

13. Make less alpha and more DoT dmg.

BB(ys) love cry about be "nuked" in a cv (what supose happpens...), well, you can make carriers more focus in DoT (dmg over time, high chances of flood and fire) so reduce a bit that useless fell they have.

 

I think for now thats everthing. Sorry if some words not right, i’m not english native, and sorry for the long text, here a potato for make you happy:

  

image.png.634c06f727375f31136ddaed05164689.png

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a lot off points you bring up here are good points and ideas, your one off the few when comes to CV post try's to be fair think we have talked in a few about the midway nerf coming, just a few thing i picked up while reading sorry if you put it in and i missed it. each line off CV US, IJN has there own perks US better fighters and IJN better TB and i think that needs to stay not sure how to work it in with what you suggested maybe US fighters go 1 tier higher and IJN TB the same or just a small buff to there planes.

strafe is something thats hard to balace but if they balance out the groups like you have suggested it wont be as bad, the biggest prob was US CV trying to keep up with other CV but if both lines have 2 fighters then you start to play with strafe, if any i would go with less power as the tiers get higher and you get more planes you dont want to be sending your fighters back after two strafes

Tier – Fighter – Torpedo bomber – Drop bomber : planes in group

T4 1-1-1 : 4 planes in group

T5 1-1-2 : 4 planes in group 

T6 2-1-2 : 5 planes in group

T7/8 2-2-2 : 5 planes in group

T9/X 2-2-2 : 6 planes in group

maybe change the tier 5-6 a bit based on the line your doing i.e IJN at tier 5 1-2-1 US 1-1-2

tier 6 IJN 2-2-1, US 2-1-2

 both are getting same fighter amount off fighter squads just one is getting a 2nd TB first and the other DB it just keeps it withen the perks off IJN VS US

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^Thanks

 

Also, one more thing.

 

        14. Fighters without ammo need be able to return.

Today the fighters keep "locked" without ammo in a fighter battle, thats not makes any sense, if they are out of ammo they need be able to return.

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I agree with a lot of of things you have posted, my recommendation.

 

AA:

With my proposals AA needs one nerf, get rid of defensive fire: instead pick a captain skill that when you select a squadron when you are in a surface ship you have a panic inducing focus on the air craft that intensifies the closer the strike craft get to your ship.(closer the strike gets the bigger the "cone" or "bubble" gets) it does not shoot planes down faster it does not come off cool down it only works when you select a specific target and you can only select one at a time. CV will be told their squadron is under "intense fire!" to tell cv that this ship has this skill. fleet aa bubbles are left alone at this time because- in this experiment cv has unlimited planes. but when he losses his squadron that is in the air the reload time on his squadron witch is under deck takes a long time to ready and fuel and arm. (more explained later)

Attack:

needs to be dot base:burst damage on tb and db needs to be reduced, fire and flood chance is increased, dots can be damage controlled but it is a delayed damage control takes 15 seconds to damage con a cv flood or fire. then immunity time starts after the fire/ flood is stopped. this guarantees some damage when you get a dot to form, instead of getting nearly nothing.

Also the only attack mode for damage dealing craft should be the manual drop, but the torpedo drop minimum distance needs to be increased, and the torpedo squadron count of air craft needs to be increased. 

Dive bombers need to have there rng reduced, a well aimed shot should start a lot of fires, aiming distance can remain the same. alpha strike needs to go down but the chance of lighting a fire needs to go up, count of dive bombers needs to go up. (per squadron)

also lets talk about bombing runs now if you miss judge and want to abort the drop you can up until the bombs are released, but you have to pass over the target (exposing yourself to the aa for longer) and then turn around to take another pass in formation, , and if you do re adjust at the last moment and still commit to the drop the strike zone will increase in size because you are making your craft break formation to adjust aim.

No more than 4 squads up at a time, but once you unload your bombs/torpedoes your next air squadron will start re-arming on the flight deck (10-20 seconds) and before your attacking empty squadron lands you already have your other/ armed next wave in the air.

during the battle you can choose any load out as events call for them up to a maximum of 2 of the same type in the air at any time but this means if you have 2 tb bombers in the air you cant start the re-arm process until the both have landed (penalty for alpha strike capability) but if you keep a 2-1-1 then no reload penalty will be placed upon your strike squadrons. you can also swap from he to ap bombs in the same match, as conditions unfold.

Load outs can look like:

2-2-0

0-2-2

2-0-2

1-1-2

2-1-1

ect ect.

This makes it so map vision is not dominated by the cv (low overall squadron count), and so that the alpha strike of the cv is diminished but the "reload time" is cut in half per strike. making chip damage /support the focus.

 

Defense:

Craft provide a lot of pin point information in wows as it is, but this was not the case in real combat, I propose only fighters can "scout" for the rest of the fleet and relay directional information like rpf does. so when a fighter spots a ship and that ship is outside of spotting range from another surface vessel, the friendly surface vessel will have a rpf ping added to there UI telling them they need to investigate there is a ship in the zone. or simply have that ship drawn on the map like it is now but dont have them draw in the game client.

Or if we want them to still be drawn in the client all surface vessels shooting the aircraft spotted target, of that target is not being directly spotted by another surface vessel dispersion should go way up, because ships are shooting at a target they themselves as the fleet cannot see with out the air craft.

Torpedo detection by air craft, needs to be taken down to like .5 km and once they leave aircraft spotting range they need to go dark again, torpedoes need to stay lit once they are detected by a surface vessels.

 

Fighter vs fighter:

Introduce dog fight to the game, it will be used by ijn only and is the counter to Strafe, usn will have access to strafe which is the counter to dog fight.

Strafe/ dog fight needs to use more ammunition and it needs a nerf in effeteness also fighter speed/ energy retention needs to be reworked. 

 

IE: ijn can be slower, but maneuvering is where they accel at so when a usn fighter squadron is chasing ijn can turn and force the usn to turn but the usn bleeds a lot of speed when turning/ maneuvering call it " defensive maneuvers, kinda like a defensive strafe. in return the usn line should have a defensive maneuver called WIP, it makes your planes vary fast in a straight line but they ignore all orders for about 8 seconds. 

take away ijn strafe give it to usn only, give dog fight to ijn and usn is all but useless in dog fights give ijn the anti strafe, and when strafe is used by usn when the squad it in a dog fight breaking away and loosing one plane is still acceptable, but it takes about 10 seconds for the action to take place.

 

CV Snipe

 

Give planes a "range" in witch they can travel say 20 km from the carrier, just like every one else has to deal with a range limitation why dont cv? no more cv snip.

 

I wish u all well.

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i would be happy if USN db accuracy was buffed since USN seems to have A LOT of them in their loadouts. if i was going to buff them there drop circles have to be small enough to hit a destroyer with pin point accuracy. if i recall historically SBD Dauntlesses were known to have very precise accurate bomb drops.

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13 hours ago, Tempered_Tantrum said:

No more than 4 squads up at a time, but once you unload your bombs/torpedoes your next air squadron will start re-arming on the flight deck (10-20 seconds) and before your attacking empty squadron lands you already have your other/ armed next wave in the air.

during the battle you can choose any load out as events call for them up to a maximum of 2 of the same type in the air at any time but this means if you have 2 tb bombers in the air you cant start the re-arm process until the both have landed (penalty for alpha strike capability) but if you keep a 2-1-1 then no reload penalty will be placed upon your strike squadrons. you can also swap from he to ap bombs in the same match, as conditions unfold.

Load outs can look like:

2-2-0

0-2-2

2-0-2

1-1-2

2-1-1

ect ect.

This makes it so map vision is not dominated by the cv (low overall squadron count), and so that the alpha strike of the cv is diminished but the "reload time" is cut in half per strike. making chip damage /support the focus.

One off the problems that you will have with this as much as CV might like the idea that once there fighters are gone for good you can just go a 0-2-2 combo to deal dmg, with the rest off the team screaming and crying because you picked a load out that you wanted  to start doing more dmg and sinking ships and get your exp, credits etc up and not having a fighter to cover them. 

It can also be done at the start if you go a 0-2-2 combo and the other CV dos a 2-2-0 they will be pissed because you didnt pick fighters to give them AA and people will start to complain again

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15 hours ago, ausanimal said:

One off the problems that you will have with this as much as CV might like the idea that once there fighters are gone for good you can just go a 0-2-2 combo to deal dmg, with the rest off the team screaming and crying because you picked a load out that you wanted  to start doing more dmg and sinking ships and get your exp, credits etc up and not having a fighter to cover them. 

It can also be done at the start if you go a 0-2-2 combo and the other CV dos a 2-2-0 they will be pissed because you didnt pick fighters to give them AA and people will start to complain again

People will always complain, but at least the cv can always have a good load out, and always have a balance, but even if you had 2 tb and db up your reload time will go way up to compensate for the burst damage, the reality is cv would be balanced in this aspect because if you spec for the cap skill i suggest then you at least have a fighting chance to survive if you manuver, because the cv cant just reset its attack pattern with no penlty

 

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On 05/04/2018 at 5:24 AM, HyenaHiena said:

14. Fighters without ammo need be able to return.

Today the fighters keep "locked" without ammo in a fighter battle, thats not makes any sense, if they are out of ammo they need be able to return.

only problem is if your in a dogfight and  your planes leave they will just follow and shot the rest down, when i get down to 1 ammo left i go back to CV unless i need to cover someone thats close and is about to be hit hard from TB/DB stike i use my last one to take as many out as i can, but they need to work something in so you dont run out halfway into a dogfight be it when you hit 1 ammo left you start to head back but you can over rule it and send it somewhere else or something informs you that your low on ammo, if your strafing a lot in a row sometimes you might miss how low your ammo is?

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Fighters need to be able to break off when they have no ammo left, without penalty of loosing a craft, they might get shot down on the way back to cv but at least you have a chance.

 

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58 minutes ago, Tempered_Tantrum said:

Fighters need to be able to break off when they have no ammo left, without penalty of loosing a craft, they might get shot down on the way back to cv but at least you have a chance.

 

I think they should going back to carrier like the torpedo or drop bombers, not really "strafe out" without ammo, but just going back slow... at least give you one small chance to back to AA friend or try rocover the group.

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On 07/04/2018 at 6:30 AM, HyenaHiena said:

I think they should going back to carrier like the torpedo or drop bombers, not really "strafe out" without ammo, but just going back slow... at least give you one small chance to back to AA friend or try rocover the group.

if they could work in that you could strafe out with no ammo and no loss off planes would be the better way least you get a bit off a head start then its up to the other CV do they try and follow you and catch up to finish you off or let you go knowing theres better things they could be focused on, it would have to be a different strafe i.e they all fly in a straight line or something so the CV knows your out off ammo but then its up to them to pick what they do do they give chase or let you go making the other CV think which is better at that point.

you could be close to friendly AA so they might pick to let you go, you could be over no one so they go for the kill giving the the player the choice of what do when that happens and it could work out good or bad based on the choice you make

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There are a lot of problems with the way Carriers fit into the current game. For instance, unlike most other ship classes in the game, our captain's tech tree is extremely dry and uninspired. It's easy choices the entire first 15 points on your captain. I wish that captain skills were determined by class of ship your captain is on. For instance, a battleship captain should get different options to choose than a destroyer captain, and so on and so forth.

Besides that, I think the first thing is that AA needs a complete rework from the ground up. Each tier has such strange rules and exceptions to rules that makes playing a carrier fundamentally difficult from any other class. You have to consider AA ranges of the ship you're attacking, ships nearby, enemy planes. You're playing a game of Chess while everyone around you is playing Checkers. Plus, you have to consider what has the defensive aa consumable (which in my opinion needs to be reworked or made more consistent). That consumable does weird things for different ships ie. 25x Damage for Rocket AA on Hood and 4x Damage for US and Ruskie DD's. I feel like AA emphasis should be a toggle option, where dual purpose guns should be switched to get full AA damage. (but then they don't act as secondary guns, give a ship 5 seconds to change to aa and 5 seconds to change back, make bb's take 8). This would make some ships really powerful as being AA emphasis cruisers and Battleships, but would come at a price. Plus, I feel that the multiplier should apply proportionality to AA, ie. Highest damage AA gets a lower multiplier than lower damage AA, this would allow better damage still, but would make the effect far less pronounced, (ie losing an entire strike wave on one cruiser). At least this would help remove the "I win" feel of the Defensive AA, it could keep the panic function too. 

Those two things aside, the carrier lines both need reworks and need to be fine tuned better. The carriers should have planes of equal tier to the tier they're in (exception to premiums). They need to do more adjusting to these numbers. I'd even throw the idea of removing fighters from the carriers and forcing teams to play together to use their AA. I'd couple this with a general buff to AA damage in general, and you'd be good to go. If this isn't how we want things to go, i want more options with moving my planes as a carrier, if my planes use islands for cover, ships on the other side of a mountain shouldn't be able to hit them as if they have direct line of sight. On the same note, If I move my dive bombers to a higher altitude during a storm, a ship shouldn't notice them until they dive and attack. There should be a captain skill for a CV that removes the "Spotted by Plane" Indicator for ships too. Make it a 3 or 4 pointer. It'd be a great option, especially to help support. 

Wargaming needs to rethink carriers completely to make them viable again. I love my CV's, but I would be content to retire my Beautiful Carriers to improve the game balance. 

I feel that before we talk about adjusting the CV's, we need to take a step back and look at what outside problems there are to consider as well.

 

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i enjoy talking about the CV re work with people that enjoy playing CV and have a understanding and ideas that may be good or bad but not just the simple buff AA till its nuts to counter CV,  HyenaHiena is one off the people that is good to talk about  the changes, the problem is each one go's hand in hand.

8 hours ago, MrBATTLEBRAWL said:

I wish that captain skills were determined by class of ship your captain is on. For instance, a battleship captain should get different options to choose than a destroyer captain, and so on and so forth.

 

i agree it would make the game a lot more interesting and different builds for each ship/player and not just the same BB build for every one it could range from better armour to being able to shot faster.

8 hours ago, MrBATTLEBRAWL said:

i want more options with moving my planes as a carrier, if my planes use islands for cover, ships on the other side of a mountain shouldn't be able to hit them as if they have direct line of sight. On the same note, If I move my dive bombers to a higher altitude during a storm, a ship shouldn't notice them until they dive and attack. There should be a captain skill for a CV that removes the "Spotted by Plane" Indicator for ships too. Make it a 3 or 4 pointer. It'd be a great option, especially to help support. 

i like this idea more the problem with removing fighters is the premium CV have them unless they remove them from those CV which i dont think they will they can't for the rest off the CV.

8 hours ago, MrBATTLEBRAWL said:

I feel that before we talk about adjusting the CV's, we need to take a step back and look at what outside problems there are to consider as well.

to me they need to work from the CV and work out but know what problems they need to look at i.e AA to me there better off getting the CV right then fixing the AA to the new CV, if they worked from other problems like AA, spotting, strafe, DEFAA etc first then did the CV they would have to double back and change some off them or fine tune them, least if they get the CV right first then the rest and bring it out on test servers and even change the game to the new rework. fixing a AA problem i.e a small buff/nerf would be a lot easier then dealing with CV again and less off a headache for WG

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Cant think in 'balance' carriers putting premium on list, its extreme low chance WG change premium cvs (remember what happens with the belfast/kutuzov/perth after the smoke change? Is not a good business model for WG.)

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Idea I had is letting fighters attack ships. It's a sound tactic from WW2 (even appears in wows cinematic), fighters do minor damage like 15 a craft per second and can eliminate AA. If this happens force that ships AA to attack the fighters. You can send fighters to distract an AA cruiser while strikes hit the battleship. 

Second idea is to let strikes dogfight. Make them bad at it but maybe double their defensive attack value. Once at tier 6 fighters rarely engage strikes (strafe is so much better) making that value useless. IJN benefits from having their multiple strike squadrons able to overwhelm US squadrons. USN gets makeshift fighter squadrons to make up for being down squadrons often.

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The problem is with all this is WG left carrier's so far behind but just kept dumping ships in the game with crazy high AA values im fine with how carriers are atm yes its hard to play them well and sometimes having a bad carrier on your team means you get stomped but its no diff then having a few bad DD's or BB's or even cruisers if your team has a few potato's carrier or not carrier good chance you will lose anyway.

The real problem with carriers is that people cry about getting destroyed by planes and WG doesn't take into account that its probably because they were off solo being a Potato so they were a easy target away from the mass amount of cancer AA, So then they cry on the forums about how carriers are OP ect ect and WG listens to them rather then looking at game replay or anything like that, that should be taken into account. SO they keep dumping AA heavy ships into the game thinking that it will fix the carrier problem when there is no problem its just people are stupid. The fact that we get ships like The Minotaur is proof of this that ship can kill all your planes without being spotted and it doesn't need Defensive AA This is what needs to be fixed in the game If you don't pack Defensive AA you should be a Target for carriers you cant have everything rolled into 1 ship just fix AA so that Unless you are using Defensive AA or you are balled up in a group where your combined AA can kill the planes your a target. i would even be fine with Defensive AA being a Unlimited consumable on a cool down like it is on the Atlanta IF! you pick it on your ship.

Otherwise WG may as well put modern USN ships in the game with strike missiles and just end the games as they start, cos that's balance right? i don't wanna fight at all if i cry hard enough on the forums WG will listen to me.....

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btw has anyone played tier 8 Lexington lately i dunno if its just me but wth are you meant todo against all the premium carriers the Graf has bigger fighter squad and the planes are faster and the Enterprise has 2 sets of USN fighters lol i mean this game doesn't really have a much of a Pay to win line but carriers are pretty much Pay To Win because t8 carriers will only ever vs t8 carriers the Shokaku is def better for fighting the Premium cancer because at least 2 squads of fighters lets you outplay the enemy lol

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On 4/12/2018 at 2:43 AM, IronFistOfChaos said:

The problem is with all this is WG left carrier's so far behind but just kept dumping ships in the game with crazy high AA values im fine with how carriers are atm yes its hard to play them well and sometimes having a bad carrier on your team means you get stomped but its no diff then having a few bad DD's or BB's or even cruisers if your team has a few potato's carrier or not carrier good chance you will lose anyway.

The real problem with carriers is that people cry about getting destroyed by planes and WG doesn't take into account that its probably because they were off solo being a Potato so they were a easy target away from the mass amount of cancer AA, So then they cry on the forums about how carriers are OP ect ect and WG listens to them rather then looking at game replay or anything like that, that should be taken into account. SO they keep dumping AA heavy ships into the game thinking that it will fix the carrier problem when there is no problem its just people are stupid. The fact that we get ships like The Minotaur is proof of this that ship can kill all your planes without being spotted and it doesn't need Defensive AA This is what needs to be fixed in the game If you don't pack Defensive AA you should be a Target for carriers you cant have everything rolled into 1 ship just fix AA so that Unless you are using Defensive AA or you are balled up in a group where your combined AA can kill the planes your a target. i would even be fine with Defensive AA being a Unlimited consumable on a cool down like it is on the Atlanta IF! you pick it on your ship.

Otherwise WG may as well put modern USN ships in the game with strike missiles and just end the games as they start, cos that's balance right? i don't wanna fight at all if i cry hard enough on the forums WG will listen to me.....

The issue here is that even if one player singles them selves out, dd vs bb bb vs ca/cl or any other combination, skill on both sides of the coin play into the outcome of the battle, the reality is, CV will fake drop, cv will wait till ur aa is burnt off cv will perma spot you, and you can do nothing but plea your cv to come help, that is a problem. if no matter what you do will net you the same result every single time with both top level players then there is a huge issue here.

Like i said before add a "range" for aircraft to stay inside of, and then when the cv commits to an attack order you can break off and adjust your aim but your "dispersion" will be [edited]because you are asking bombers to maneuver in their tight bombing formation.

Then get rid of defensive fire and make it a captain skill where each class gets more or less effective use of the skill. So when you target a squadron the bloom of dispersion will widen as the bombers get closer, it is a choice on the cv part to unload at a distance and anticipate the path and keep the tight group, or run the whole raid and risk more air craft/ worse dispersion. this whole dropping 1 km from something to hit 6 out of 8 is not quite right. 

 

Also CV needs to be chip damage, not this massive burst damage and then 2 min reload, that is no fun for the cv, and no fun for the insta-deleated victim. half the amount of squadrons in the air at one time, but as soon as you drop that squadron you can launch another of the same type of your flight deck.

 

Edited by Tempered_Tantrum

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6 hours ago, Tempered_Tantrum said:

The issue here is that even if one player singles them selves out, dd vs bb bb vs ca/cl or any other combination, skill on both sides of the coin play into the outcome of the battle, the reality is, CV will fake drop, cv will wait till ur aa is burnt off cv will perma spot you, and you can do nothing but plea your cv to come help, that is a problem. if no matter what you do will net you the same result every single time with both top level players then there is a huge issue here.

Like i said before add a "range" for aircraft to stay inside of, and then when the cv commits to an attack order you can break off and adjust your aim but your "dispersion" will be [edited]because you are asking bombers to maneuver in their tight bombing formation.

Then get rid of defensive fire and make it a captain skill where each class gets more or less effective use of the skill. So when you target a squadron the bloom of dispersion will widen as the bombers get closer, it is a choice on the cv part to unload at a distance and anticipate the path and keep the tight group, or run the whole raid and risk more air craft/ worse dispersion. this whole dropping 1 km from something to hit 6 out of 8 is not quite right. 

 

Also CV needs to be chip damage, not this massive burst damage and then 2 min reload, that is no fun for the cv, and no fun for the insta-deleated victim. half the amount of squadrons in the air at one time, but as soon as you drop that squadron you can launch another of the same type of your flight deck.

 

You can stay with aa cruisers and ask for your cv help, its a team gameplay...

I dont think add a "range" its a good ideia, because thats going make people camp even more, specially BBs.

I dont reaally think they need get rid of def AA, but need be more 'balanced', cruisers need have strong aa, bbs weak aa, dds... well some with good some with bad. The problem is we have some dds/bbs with st*pid aa, and some useless cls, its "this" or "that" theres nothing on middle.

 

Agreed the last part.

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57 minutes ago, HyenaHiena said:

You can stay with aa cruisers and ask for your cv help, its a team gameplay...

I dont think add a "range" its a good ideia, because thats going make people camp even more, specially BBs.

I dont reaally think they need get rid of def AA, but need be more 'balanced', cruisers need have strong aa, bbs weak aa, dds... well some with good some with bad. The problem is we have some dds/bbs with st*pid aa, and some useless cls, its "this" or "that" theres nothing on middle.

 

Agreed the last part.

It is a team game, but one ship type making every other ship on the map act a certain way just because they have loaded into the match, is a sign of bad balance, just because a dd loads into a match with me as a bb player does not immediately eliminate all the places i can go that dont have hydro, Like wise as a ca/cl player with bbs in play does not immediately make me ineffective because i can Play to my ships advantages, Ie stealth, maneuverability fire rate. 

But cv has every advantage except for the reoload time, Attack from any angle with out consideration of the ships current position, check, have pin point accuracy at a1 when your ship is at j10 check, can screen its self for dds and torpedoes all match long with out support or consideration of what the freindly ships are doing check. 

If you put a range on the air craft it will force them to actually move there ship and have less over all map influence and rely on the team more. also it would allow dds to actually do what they are supposed to do and counter the cv to a lesser extent by just moving away from the cv and getting away from the effective combat range. 

 

I dont understand how giving unlimited range makes camping less of a thing, i feel when you have only a 15km circle you have to move in order to play... look at tier 4 bbs, they dont camp much, cus their range is so short, but yamato? bb camping king cause of the 26km or something range.

 

i want to get rid of def aa, because it is terrible, it has a limited up time limited consumable (unless ur in atlanta) and really is a skill the cv can just wait out, which when u go against a cv who knows whats up will wait the 30 seconds and then drop u any way.  It needs to work more like hydro in the up time department if they want to make it a limited use, increse the dispersion like it does now, but does not inflict more damage to planes, kinda like how hydro doesnt damage torpedoes but only spots them, perhaps def fire will lock a cvs planes into there attack formation and they have to commit to the bombing raid because breaking formation once you have come under attack is a death sentence in this time period.

I am enjoying the healthy adult responses btw HyenaHiena

I would like to read more what you would think  needs changed.

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On 4/10/2018 at 12:56 PM, HyenaHiena said:

Cant think in 'balance' carriers putting premium on list, its extreme low chance WG change premium cvs (remember what happens with the belfast/kutuzov/perth after the smoke change? Is not a good business model for WG.)

Premium cv can be where it is at, but there is nothing wrong with adjusting tech tree ships to a point where if fighters were taken away that the premium cv with fighter would be able to shoot down planes but the main cv lines have big air craft reserves, and allow for rear gunner perk to be a lor effective, nerfing premium content isnt smart but you can move around the issue by buffing other aspects of the game.

 

just a thought

 

I dont want fighter to leave the game fyi just adding some potentional food for thought.

 

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4 hours ago, Tempered_Tantrum said:

It is a team game, but one ship type making every other ship on the map act a certain way just because they have loaded into the match, is a sign of bad balance, just because a dd loads into a match with me as a bb player does not immediately eliminate all the places i can go that dont have hydro, Like wise as a ca/cl player with bbs in play does not immediately make me ineffective because i can Play to my ships advantages, Ie stealth, maneuverability fire rate. 

But cv has every advantage except for the reoload time, Attack from any angle with out consideration of the ships current position, check, have pin point accuracy at a1 when your ship is at j10 check, can screen its self for dds and torpedoes all match long with out support or consideration of what the freindly ships are doing check. 

If you put a range on the air craft it will force them to actually move there ship and have less over all map influence and rely on the team more. also it would allow dds to actually do what they are supposed to do and counter the cv to a lesser extent by just moving away from the cv and getting away from the effective combat range. 

 

I dont understand how giving unlimited range makes camping less of a thing, i feel when you have only a 15km circle you have to move in order to play... look at tier 4 bbs, they dont camp much, cus their range is so short, but yamato? bb camping king cause of the 26km or something range.

 

i want to get rid of def aa, because it is terrible, it has a limited up time limited consumable (unless ur in atlanta) and really is a skill the cv can just wait out, which when u go against a cv who knows whats up will wait the 30 seconds and then drop u any way.  It needs to work more like hydro in the up time department if they want to make it a limited use, increse the dispersion like it does now, but does not inflict more damage to planes, kinda like how hydro doesnt damage torpedoes but only spots them, perhaps def fire will lock a cvs planes into there attack formation and they have to commit to the bombing raid because breaking formation once you have come under attack is a death sentence in this time period.

I am enjoying the healthy adult responses btw HyenaHiena

I would like to read more what you would think  needs changed.

CV don't though if your going in for a strike are you going to take the most direct path to your target even if it means you take a lot off AA and the chance off losing your planes or will you go a path thats safer, get you to your target but take longer, so while CV can atk ships from any angle we have to consider where we are and the best path to take which could mean less strikes in a match. pin point accuracy is a bit off a stretch we get one drop then will take 5 min to do another one which other ship has takes that long to rearm and DB are RNG so your not always going to get the best dmg and TB unless you have more then 1 squad doing a drop you might only get a couple in depending on drop and ship. how many CV players do you see that will keep a squad on them to screen for DD non stop all match, most good players won't when are planes come back we can see on there trip back if any are around and on trip to new target, the only time you will see a CV use all its planes to screen for a DD is if its under atk from one and there's no ships close enough to screen for you or kill the DD. 

CV do move with the fleet we just don't sit up front with the DD and cruisers and you pretty much answered you own question yourself why there isn't a  range limit on how far planes can go,  whats the first target everyone shots at if it get's spotted CV, by putting in a range of 15km where BB can shot 20-26km all it needs is for 1 ship to spot the CV to sink it because BB have more range. Not to add that CV can't keep up with every ship there slow, there turning circle is massive and your not always controlling the ship most times its on auto pilot as you focus is on your planes, where as  ships your always in control off them. 

DEFAA is fine the problem is the team and the players how many people will you see use up there DEFAA to cover someone or while it's on cooldown, most people just use it on themselves and  then complain because the CV waited to atk, CV do the same thing with fires and floods they will go in with HE DB and cause a fire wait till player gets rid of fires and then go in with TB to cause flooding knowing they have no way to stop it. players need to stop looking at CV are the problem and come to terms that CV are playing smarter knowing that players will do that put out fires or use DEFAA first sign off a strike, sorry but players need to start playing smarter knowing that CV use these tactics and not go complaining that they need something new to counter it, if im in a BB and a CV hits me with HE DB and im on fire ill heal first when i need to to get max hp back if i know there TB are floating around waiting for the fires to go out giving the CV two options, they strike with there TB while im on fire and i repair both or they wait fires go out and they strike with TB and i just repair any flooding.

 

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4 hours ago, Tempered_Tantrum said:

Premium cv can be where it is at, but there is nothing wrong with adjusting tech tree ships to a point where if fighters were taken away that the premium cv with fighter would be able to shoot down planes but the main cv lines have big air craft reserves, and allow for rear gunner perk to be a lor effective, nerfing premium content isnt smart but you can move around the issue by buffing other aspects of the game.

 

just a thought

 

I dont want fighter to leave the game fyi just adding some potentional food for thought.

look what happened to the midway because off its massive reserve, you can't have fighters in premium and not in tech tree ships, all that will happen is the fighters will just keep shooting down the strike planes while strike planes on the premium ships roam free, rear gunner is not that great even with a small buff it wont be enough to counter fighters. Fighters need to be left in the game if anything they need to look at how fighters work and how they can change that and with any changes to fighters then it comes to CV loadouts i.e if they got rid off strafe they would need to give US CV more fighter squads how WG would balance that who knows they might drop US squad size down to 5 or make it even across all CV.

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In my mind, any carrier rework will need two very crucial things:

- All tech tree carriers should have the same number of planes per squad. Period. Balancing carriers with different squad sizes is a very very difficult. I can be somewhat okay with premiums playing by different rules, but only after very long (several months) testing with supertesters and community contributors.

- Micromanagement has to drop *significantly*. Most people, myself included, have a really miserable time trying to manually drop, strafe, and dodge on multiple squads AT THE SAME TIME. Even mainstream RTS games don't have this level of micromanagement most of the time. Wargaming needs to realize that going from a single perspective gameplay with surface ships to nighmarish micro with carriers is a giant hurdle. More importantly, it means the skill gap between an average CV player and a strong CV player is absolutely massive. WAAAY more massive than the skill gap with any other ship type. I can expect carriers to be a bit more challenging than surface ships to play ... but not by this much. Nowhere near by this much.

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8 minutes ago, KaptainKaybe said:

In my mind, any carrier rework will need two very crucial things:

- All tech tree carriers should have the same number of planes per squad. Period. Balancing carriers with different squad sizes is a very very difficult. I can be somewhat okay with premiums playing by different rules, but only after very long (several months) testing with supertesters and community contributors.

- Micromanagement has to drop *significantly*. Most people, myself included, have a really miserable time trying to manually drop, strafe, and dodge on multiple squads AT THE SAME TIME. Even mainstream RTS games don't have this level of micromanagement most of the time. Wargaming needs to realize that going from a single perspective gameplay with surface ships to nighmarish micro with carriers is a giant hurdle. More importantly, it means the skill gap between an average CV player and a strong CV player is absolutely massive. WAAAY more massive than the skill gap with any other ship type. I can expect carriers to be a bit more challenging than surface ships to play ... but not by this much. Nowhere near by this much.

even letting normal people test them to but only meeting a requirement i.e tier 10 CV  and so many battles, that way it will give a feel for how its balanced from every angle before the PTS might be a idea and help WG get feedback from basic normal players how it plays and feels there end.

the micromanagement part i'm expecting them to change the question is how if all CV had same amount off planes in squads and number off fighter squads are they going to remove strafe to make it easier to use fighters and lower the skill gap of using fighters,  manual drops should stay other wise will turn into a point and click.

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