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Stauffenberg44

Cowards

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"The opposite for courage is not cowardice, it is conformity.

Even a dead fish can go with the flow." - Jim Hightower

 

We were all poor players first as we were learning this, but there is a certain breed that carry on to skulk in battleships quite often, as they know they will live longer with the highest HP and best armour. They are a certain breed of coward with this sort of conversation on their bridge often heard between the Captain and 1st officer one imagines:

"Good Lord 1st those were near misses!"

"Yes I suggest we turn her about and get some distance between us and that cap Sir."

"Right you are, let that aggressive KGV and the destroyer take the fire while we shell the enemy from a distance."

"We've been hit Sir."

"I know blast it, full speed south I want some distance between us and that cap... slip behind that poor burning Warspite for some cover."

"Yes Sir."

At times you can see a pack of them charging a cap nose to tail and then turn off like a school of sardines once they are fired on. They will refuse to push until the reds are at least 4-5 ships down and only then will sail into a cap in triumph, their HP barely dented. Ah it's good to win! Let others do all the nasty up close brawling! Etc. Comments welcome

 

Edited by Stauffenberg44
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12 minutes ago, Stauffenberg44 said:

"The opposite for courage is not cowardice, it is conformity.

Even a dead fish can go with the flow." - Jim Hightower

 

We were all poor players first as we were learning this, but there is a certain breed that carry on to skulk in battleships quite often, as they know they will live longer with the highest HP and best armour. They are a certain breed of coward with this sort of conversation on their bridge often heard between the Captain and 1st officer one imagines:

"Good Lord 1st those were near misses!"

"Yes I suggest we turn her about and get some distance between us and that cap Sir."

"Right you are, let that aggressive KGV and the destroyer take the fire while we shell the enemy from a distance."

"We've been hit Sir."

"I know blast it, full speed south I want some distance between us and that cap... slip behind that poor burning Warspite for some cover."

"Yes Sir."

At times you can see a pack of them charging a cap nose to tail and then turn off like a school of sardines once they are fired on. They will refuse to push until the reds are at least 4-5 ships down and only then will sail into a cap in triumph, their HP barely dented. Ah it's good to win! Let others do all the nasty up close brawling! Etc. Comments welcome

 

O ya.  I see this all the time and have often commented on it. I am not so hot but I fight. You have a type that plays BBs but they want all the dirty work and killing and damage already done before they enter the fray and then they can farm damage at the end of the match. Now, not ALL play like this of course but a lot do and when I see this kinda thing I gets kinda upset. Big time.You have mentioned one of the most common complaints heard on these forums. 

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1 minute ago, dmckay said:

O ya.  I see this all the time and have often commented on it. I am not so hot but I fight. You have a type that plays BBs but they want all the dirty work and killing and damage already done before they enter the fray and then they can farm damage at the end of the match. Now, not ALL play like this of course but a lot do and when I see this kinda thing I gets kinda upset. Big time.You have mentioned one of the most common complaints heard on these forums. 

I know. I've had a bellyful of it this weekend and needed to vent. Thank you for your understanding. *%^&"%$*!!!!

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Just now, Stauffenberg44 said:

I know. I've had a bellyful of it this weekend and needed to vent. Thank you for your understanding. *%^&"%$*!!!!

Well I do think, to be fair, often it is new players who have bought a spiffy high tier premium BB and they are clueless as to what their role is.  Repairs are an issue with them also I do think.  Many....confused. They think it's correct to just sit back at 15-20 K and "snipe"....hitting nothing and making no impact on the game. Like you, when these types have cost me and my team a win, I come on here and vent. I understand....boy do I! But hell it's never gonna change.  You will always catch teams in random with these types on your team.  It's one of the reasons I don't play much on weekends. Can be frustrating. If it helps...."It's just a game".  There.  Carry on.:Smile_honoring:

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My favorite is guys who won the Bismark without ever owning a ship higher than tier 5; and then playing it as a sniper!

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55 minutes ago, Umikami said:

My favorite is guys who won the Bismark without ever owning a ship higher than tier 5; and then playing it as a sniper!

Yes, not really a team player aye? No, out to save his HP-derrière, shoot down the near-dead reds later on in the battle, that others worked hard to fight against and render one-salvo-killable. and yell "Yay lookit that! I sunk one!"

Edited by Stauffenberg44

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2 hours ago, dmckay said:

Well I do think, to be fair, often it is new players who have bought a spiffy high tier premium BB and they are clueless as to what their role is.  Repairs are an issue with them also I do think.  Many....confused. They think it's correct to just sit back at 15-20 K and "snipe"....hitting nothing and making no impact on the game.

So much of the reward system (achievements, XP earned etc) is damage based, I can forgive new players for sitting back and thinking this is what they should do (I know I did starting out).

Now that I'm not a total noob I wonder if WG could encourage team play by adding achievements and XP based on ship role and that encourage team play. Sure, there is some of this - damage done upon your spotting etc. - but it feels like there is a good amount of room for more here. I have to believe that the existence of significant and real incentives for team play based on role would discourage (but obviously not eliminate) the behaviors rightly noted. 

(Certainly this isn't an original idea but I agree with anyone who has said the same)

Edited by coletrain_commander
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2 hours ago, Umikami said:

My favorite is guys who won the Bismark without ever owning a ship higher than tier 5; and then playing it as a sniper!

Better than the guys in Bayerns or Gneisenaus who try to snipe and can't hit the broadside of a barn ... from the inside.  At least the Bismarck and Tirpitz have relatively decent accuracy (for German BBs).  Those first two are horrid at just about anything above close range, from my experience.  Mind you, it's still a waste for a Biz or a Tirp to be sniping, if they have a decent chance to get in a good brawling situation. 

OTOH, to be fair (not that I want to be), some of these players who hang back and snipe are probably so bad that they'd get face-rolled in a brawl by a more experienced BB player (or a veteran DD player).

 

 

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10 minutes ago, coletrain_commander said:

So much of the reward system (achievements, XP earned etc) is damage based, I can forgive new players for sitting back and thinking this is what they should do (I know I did starting out).

Now that I'm not a total noob I wonder if WG could encourage team play by adding achievements and XP based on ship role and that encourage team play. Sure, there is some of this - damage done upon your spotting etc. - but it feels like there is a good amount of room for more here. I have to believe that the existence of significant and real incentives for team play based on role would discourage (but obviously not eliminate) the behaviors rightly noted. 

My problem with this is that I simply don't trust WG to assign what *I* would consider "proper" roles for the ships I play.  And I sure as hell would oppose any system that talks about "tanking" being a proper role for a BB, because I think that the entire concept of horse manure ... as I've written about repeatedly here on the forum.  I'd rather see things left as they are and allow the players to play however they choose to play, for better or worse.

 

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9 minutes ago, coletrain_commander said:

So much of the reward system (achievements, XP earned etc) is damage based, I can forgive new players for sitting back and thinking this is what they should do (I know I did starting out).

Now that I'm not a total noob I wonder if WG could encourage team play by adding achievements and XP based on ship role and that encourage team play. Sure, there is some of this - damage done upon your spotting etc. - but it feels like there is a good amount of room for more here. I have to believe that the existence of significant and real incentives for team play based on role would discourage (but obviously not eliminate) the behaviors rightly noted. 

 

9 minutes ago, coletrain_commander said:

So much of the reward system (achievements, XP earned etc) is damage based, I can forgive new players for sitting back and thinking this is what they should do (I know I did starting out).

Now that I'm not a total noob I wonder if WG could encourage team play by adding achievements and XP based on ship role and that encourage team play. Sure, there is some of this - damage done upon your spotting etc. - but it feels like there is a good amount of room for more here. I have to believe that the existence of significant and real incentives for team play based on role would discourage (but obviously not eliminate) the behaviors rightly noted. 

Maybe give a BB player some worthwhile reward for killing a Red at 12Km or less?  What reward? I dunno but might get some of those types moving. There are good BB players that can hit and kill at 15Km but in this game seems to me so very many can't do Jack Blank unless they are at 12Km or LESS. I know it's tough in a BB with that slow reload and crazy dispersion much of the time but so many just need to get much closer than they do. I just hate being in a cruiser and I see a BB behind me firing and "supporting" me.....but hell he is often 10Km behind me.  That's no help.  They just miss most of the time then it's another 30 secs before they reload and finally fire again. 

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9 minutes ago, Crucis said:

My problem with this is that I simply don't trust WG to assign what *I* would consider "proper" roles for the ships I play.  And I sure as hell would oppose any system that talks about "tanking" being a proper role for a BB, because I think that the entire concept of horse manure ... as I've written about repeatedly here on the forum.  I'd rather see things left as they are and allow the players to play however they choose to play, for better or worse.

 

You make a good point. 

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15 minutes ago, Crucis said:

My problem with this is that I simply don't trust WG to assign what *I* would consider "proper" roles for the ships I play.  And I sure as hell would oppose any system that talks about "tanking" being a proper role for a BB, because I think that the entire concept of horse manure ... as I've written about repeatedly here on the forum.  I'd rather see things left as they are and allow the players to play however they choose to play, for better or worse.

I get that. My thought was less about hard assigning "proper" roles and more adding things that incentivize team play. Would it be straightforward given the variety of opinions involved, probably not. But as there is a real team element to this game, having real visible rewards would, I still feel, help encourage team play.

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5 hours ago, Crucis said:

At least the Bismarck and Tirpitz have relatively decent accuracy (for German BBs).

You have hit the nail right on it's head; Biz and Tirp DO have decent accuracy for German BBs. Unfortunately, that is a little like saying the new gun I bought is very accurate, for a shotgun. And yeah Crucis, as I own a Bayern I know THAT level of accuracy, if you can call it that, LOL!  (AND hope you had a happy Easter Bro!)

5 hours ago, Crucis said:

My problem with this is that I simply don't trust WG to assign what *I* would consider "proper" roles for the ships I play.

I just wish they would expand the number and type of things a player is rewarded for; like scouting, downing enemy aircraft, assisting team mates wi9th smoke and other consumables. Sometimes it feels like the only things you get rewarded for are damage and kills, which is definitely good but there is so much more to the game. (and no; I don't think BBs should have to be the meat shields of the fleet)

Happy Easter everyone!

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8 minutes ago, Umikami said:

You have hit the nail right on it's head; Biz and Tirp DO have decent accuracy for German BBs. Unfortunately, that is a little like saying the new gun I bought is very accurate, for a shotgun. And yeah Crucis, as I own a Bayern I know THAT level of accuracy, if you can call it that, LOL!  (AND hope you had a happy Easter Bro!)

I just wish they would expand the number and type of things a player is rewarded for; like scouting, downing enemy aircraft, assisting team mates wi9th smoke and other consumables. Sometimes it feels like the only things you get rewarded for are damage and kills, which is definitely good but there is so much more to the game. (and no; I don't think BBs should have to be the meat shields of the fleet)

Happy Easter everyone!

I don't know that the Biz and Tirp are all that bad in their accuracy.  Oh, it's not Iowa/Missouri good, but it's passable.  But damn, the Kaiser and the Bayern are like shotguns, where the Biz and Tirp are more like moderately accurate rifles, though nothing special.

And I agree about the stuff in the second para.  And, ya know, the thing is you can still kinda suck up a fair amount of fire just by fighting smart and try to work your armor, rather than playing the role of damage sponge.  You don't have to actually draw their fire by charging into close range, etc.  If you position yourself well, work your armor, and generate a lot of damage, you'll probably get their attention.  And if you don't, well then, just be happy and keep on hammering them for the good of the team.  I've been in this situation before and I'm sure that many others have where you win a battle and you were in the thick of the fighting and you can't believe how little fire actually came your way.  I don't think that means that somehow you did anything wrong or weren't aggressive enough.  Sometimes, the enemy is just paying attention to other ships and your ship never seems to rise up to being a priority target to get focus fired upon.

 

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1 minute ago, Crucis said:

Sometimes, the enemy is just paying attention to other ships and your ship never seems to rise up to being a priority target to get focus fired upon.

I've heard good players work to accomplish that, but not being one I wouldn't know!

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Routs are interesting things because they occur not per se because a unit is facing an overwhelming force but because of animal psychology. All mammals have a "fight or flight" system. However, how does the brain determine when to fight and when to flee? When attacked, fleeing is generally the best, and most common, option for an organism and fighting is usually only done when there is no recourse but to fight. What, then, determines when an organism attacks or stands their ground when it doesn't necessarily have to? Well, it's usually because other hormonal systems have surpassed the fear system. In most cases this means either the organism is either hungry, horny or homey (i.e., territorial).

It takes a lot of training and much "carrot and stick" to get a human to attack another on command when he's neither having to personally fight to obtain nor fight to defend. This is why propaganda is such an essential part of warfare. It's also something that usually flies right over the head of the SJW's who would rather be jailed in a nice minimum security facility than actually serve their country. They wonder why soldiers don't necessarily have a great deal of love and caring for the people they are fighting. It's because you can't care for someone and fight them too. If you care for them then they become part of those you are fighting for, not fighting against.

In another thread I mentioned the unit my great-grandpa was a part of during the Civil War. Before my grandpa signed up, in the first days of the unit, when the troops were untrained raw recruits, the unit was involved in a rout. Interestingly, they were actually winning the battle but some of the enemy were confused and started fleeing forward through their lines. Of course, in a civil war everyone pretty much looks like everyone else, especially if they are made up of local units who may not be wearing that dissimilar looking of uniforms. Therefore, seeing people "running away" the soldiers figured that there must be a good reason for this and started running themselves.

Do you think you are so brave that you wouldn't do this? If so, then look at what happens during fires, shootings or other emergencies that occur all too frequently. Unless you are highly trained and on duty, you probably are going to join the throng when a dozen people run toward you screaming "run!" The reason for this is that our ancestors were predisposed to run and thus survived while the stupid, brave or curious ones who stayed behind to see what all the commotion was about got eaten by the wolf pack or bear.

This flight behavior is seen even in games, where a loss really does absolutely nothing but lower your win average a tiny percent and the loss of a unit is, in reality, just a single logical 1 being changed to a 0 somewhere in a program. Even those who see things more rationally will flee and join the lemming train because they figure that if they stay then they are not going to get any support, so why bother. Very rarely someone rallies the troops but this doesn't occur very often. It's amazing how many times I've seen two battleships, two destroyers and two cruisers sitting outside a cap for half of a game because they are afraid of the single DD that's in it.

Edited by Snargfargle
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Before I play a new ship I try to research it a bit to discover what my role is. Sometimes it is obvious but sometimes it isn't. I know for definite I have played a ship or two completely wrong (sorry to all those in my team when I tried out my higher tiers for the first time, I truly brought shame to the staff here haha)

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As a DD player, I’ve learned that once you start moving forward, you and your fellow DDs really are alone. 

BBs won’t get close enough to hit (have all that range for a reason, right?)  Cruisers get punished if they do. 

I used to be mad about it. Now more than ever I join up with another DD to go to cap, and if anyone on my team accidentally gets in range of red ships challenging my cap and turns on a radar or actually shoots at someone, well that’s awesome. 

I’ll spot for them (stopped smoking them with the new spotting rules, unless they’re in distress- even when smoked they won’t stop shooting though, so...), try to make BBs turn broadside to them etc., because that’s what good teammates do. Experience teaches though that ships that get hit a lot are going to look to their own survival first, and if that’s a full time job, they won’t help. 

I’m  cool with it. 

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Honestly, the single two biggest things that WG could do (and do easily) to encourage "better" play is this:

  1. Remove the Damage Counter. Replace it with an XP counter
  2. Remove any XP reward for longevity. You get NOTHING from living longer, other than the chance to do something meaningful.

 

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Honestly this frustrates me most in my German and/or dreadnought-style BBs.

"Gneisenau, why did you rush in there?"
"Because I THOUGHT the five ships sailing with me had my back, what the heck happened?"
"We saw two Konigs and panicked."

"..."

 

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On ‎4‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 5:24 PM, Stauffenberg44 said:

"The opposite for courage is not cowardice, it is conformity.

Even a dead fish can go with the flow." - Jim Hightower

 

We were all poor players first as we were learning this, but there is a certain breed that carry on to skulk in battleships quite often, as they know they will live longer with the highest HP and best armour. They are a certain breed of coward with this sort of conversation on their bridge often heard between the Captain and 1st officer one imagines:

"Good Lord 1st those were near misses!"

"Yes I suggest we turn her about and get some distance between us and that cap Sir."

"Right you are, let that aggressive KGV and the destroyer take the fire while we shell the enemy from a distance."

"We've been hit Sir."

"I know blast it, full speed south I want some distance between us and that cap... slip behind that poor burning Warspite for some cover."

"Yes Sir."

At times you can see a pack of them charging a cap nose to tail and then turn off like a school of sardines once they are fired on. They will refuse to push until the reds are at least 4-5 ships down and only then will sail into a cap in triumph, their HP barely dented. Ah it's good to win! Let others do all the nasty up close brawling! Etc. Comments welcome

 

  When you Engage another Battleship with Machine gun fire, [Yes we are often THAT close, ]  I don't think this description fits.  Now The Carrier skippers who wide and Snipe outside gun range..

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17 hours ago, panzerdeal61 said:

  When you Engage another Battleship with Machine gun fire, [Yes we are often THAT close, ]  I don't think this description fits.  Now The Carrier skippers who wide and Snipe outside gun range..

Frankly Given a carriers strike range of 320 KM or there abouts and a battleships max gun range is 30 or so,  Anyone who even thinks  like this is due for a Physche eval.. Call it a character quark, but I'd REALLY like to be afloat at the end of the game, thank you very much..

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On 4/1/2018 at 5:04 PM, Umikami said:

My favorite is guys who won the Bismark without ever owning a ship higher than tier 5; and then playing it as a sniper!

Especially when you consider that that campaign also awarded you upgrades to make the Bismarck a secondary-spec BB.

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1 hour ago, Haifischkoeder said:

Especially when you consider that that campaign also awarded you upgrades to make the Bismarck a secondary-spec BB.

Never underestimate the power of Human stupidity!

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