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Lady_Athena

CV's are getting seriously shafted in so many ways.

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I know this discussion has been talked about alot, but seriously.. I don't want to see another 3 years of CV's being in such a crappy state. --------

Playing both against and as CV's simply isn't fun in many ways. I still play them because they are interesting to play and quite different than usual when I want to mix things up.. but they are hurting..

Take my last game for instance (Both tier 6 US). Both CV's smashed each other, very quickly into the game we had nothing left. Why? Mainly because we both outplayed each other. We hit each others torps, got good fights in with our fighters, but... the ships AA's do so much damage, every time I fly my planes against even the weakest of their BB's going it alone, half my squads are both wiped out. That's without a Cruiser covering them...

15 minutes in the enemy CV had zero planes, and I was left with 1 bomber left. I used this bomber extremely well, even got 2 hits in on DD's, and by 20 minutes I kept the DD's pushing the caps lit up, allowing our team to push them out, and spotted incoming torps way in advance, helping the BB's dodge them. I only did about 6k damage all game, not great damage wise, but I did ALOT for the team in keeping the enemy spotted, keeping tabs on the DD's, and being an early warning radar for incoming torps. Yet I get nothing for it. No spotting damage income of any kind, nothing for keeping the DD's lit up in the cap who are taking damage because of me, we won with the timer runnning out and only 5 points ahead, and I honestly feel its because of me. It was literally BB's vs DD's.. without me the BB's would of been blind, deaf, and had no idea where to focus, or go.

-----------------------------

I really feel like at LEAST credit wise, something can be done with CV's, at least give CV's spotting points for specific situations, like ships in a cap being spotted by ONLY the CV's planes, and taking damage the CV should be rewarded.

--------------------------------

 

But going past this.. I have other idea's that could be played with to fix CV's both playing against, and as them...

 

1) Remove manual drops. It's both unfair, broken, and really takes no real amount of skill to use.. You stack your torp planes, and get a free kill.. GG? This is coming from a person who likes to play carriers.. so that says something..

2) move in the auto drop range a little bit. Not as bad as manual drops by any means, but enough that if a ship isn't already reacting to the planes, chances are they are going to take damage.

3) lower bomb damage, but increase fire chance, and increase the amount bombs/HE damages secondaries.

4) Make AA on ships have 2 parts to them. The damage, and "concussion". The more incoming AA the more fractured the drop will be by both torpedoes, and bombers.

5) Lower the AA damage across the board. Only AA kited ships, and heavy AA cruisers/BBs should be knocking over half the squadron out of the sky on a single attack. The rest should be relying on the "concussion" stat to minimize the damage, and spread the incoming attack opening a hole to avoid damage.

6) IF you keep it this much damage.. then increase the damage of AA, and remove the limited numbers of planes... This is an arcade game after all.. ships have unlimited shells, ships fire at crazy high accuracy than real life, ships heal "health points", and god knows what other unrealistic things in this game.. Why have limited planes? They aren't that OP, hell even destroyers with their mega ton nukes have unlimited torpedoes....

 

 

Note: I got into a little piss fight with 2 people about the manual drops. I won't go through it, as its there for everyone to see, but I will state my final post here, so everyone can see, and I please request we keep this argument out of this post please.

" I'm not going to argue anymore, as you guys are simply avoiding my statement all together. The statement isn't what you can or cannot do with manual drops, nor is it about how much "skill" manual drops require, or whether they require any at all. The statement is simple. A mechanic where you can instantly delete a player due to "skill" of any kind, or a mechanic in general (not counting detonations that are purely hard RNG AND skill and luck required), should not be in the game.

The proof of this is in World of Tanks before the arty re work. Artillery were much like CV's. A well placed shot could instantly delete everything but a heavy tank, and a heavy tank would be so insanely damaged it'd be pretty much out of the fight. The extreme stigma of hate, insults, and trash arty players got, and artillery got in general was famous. People would even team kill SPGs on their own team at the start of a match it was hated that much. This mechanic is no different than manual drops. You can on a high average (Even higher average than SPGs in WOT), can either instantly delete, or damage a ship so severely its practically out of the fight.

This is not fun. Period. It shouldn't be in the game, period. It's purely BAD GAME DESIGN.  In a game where you have to have a chance of putting down damage to get anywhere, mechanics like these are terrible in design and execution. Especially when the player has so little defense in stopping it. Again the players in WOT had more defense against this than ships do, and they still got this extreme stigma of hate. But how fun is it to get deleted simply because you got chosen to be focused by 2 torp squadrons manual dropping and all you can do is turn and hope for the best? It isn't fun at all.

----------------

I believe this is why Wargaming is keeping CV's in a trashy state, so as few people play them as possible. I can play games all day and not see a CV sometimes, but lets for a second pretend that you saw 3 CV's a side like you used to see arty a side in WoT every single game. How long do you think it'd take for that same extreme hate stigma, and bandwagon of calling every CV and CV player cancerous worthess piles that should be removed from the game? It wouldn't take long at all. Especially when these CV start manual dropping all the time.

It's a bad game mechanic. Bad design, and isn't interesting, or fun. There is very little if any counter to it, and has no place in this game. I believe even WGing knows this, but isn't ready to make any steps yet towards CVs.

 

So whether you think it takes skill or not isn't even relevant to my original statement. I'm done discussing this point. "

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i wouldnt really be to focused on changes with the nerf coming to midway most ppl will stop playing CV or everyone will play IJN CV

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Battleships are currently averaging more plane kills than cruisers are per match. That's how good WG is at balance.

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13 minutes ago, Canadatron said:

Battleships are currently averaging more plane kills than cruisers are per match. That's how good WG is at balance.

That is mostly due to CVs targeting BBs more often than cruisers, and avoiding the strongest AA ships until there is nothing else left.

OP makes some interesting suggestions.

...

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If you move autodrop in any closer than it already is, the torpedoes won't arm before they hit the target. Usually, torps arm in the last 10 meters before they hit me, and i'm starting to hope they won't arm this time, but then they do. Since the target can always see your tb's, they will be reacting well before the torps are dropped. Your advantage is that bb's have near kilometer turn radius, and take quite some time to either begin turning or straighten out. Also they can't slow down or speed up before the next ice age. I'm always surprised when I see cruisers or dd's get hit by tb's. Except cross drops. Anyway, the current nerfs don't matter because WG is going to completely rehash the cv concept soon. It'll be totally different, idk if the player will get to fly the lead plane, or if the map-style ui will get changed to squirrel's eye view like everyone else has, or the stationary dogfights will get revised, or maybe the sqadrons won't all be in one plane with a segmented health bar. Non-manual drops are such that you can't order the angle of approach, or even the angle of the drop. All you can do is click on the target. I never got to try manual drops. Bombs already almost always start fires. Also I think I had the bug where you couldn't set waypoints for planes. it'll be interesting to see what WG does with cv's. Hopefully not remove them.

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29 minutes ago, 44_percenter said:

the current nerfs don't matter because WG is going to completely rehash the cv concept soon

seeing what there doing to the midway even more with the new nerf, not touching the IJN CV, changing clear sky it starts to make you think with the rework how bad it could turn out then being better then what we have now

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2 hours ago, Canadatron said:

Battleships are currently averaging more plane kills than cruisers are per match. That's how good WG is at balance.

They also have two BBs that sit at the top for torpedo hit rate.

There ain't nothin a BB can't do! :Smile_teethhappy::Smile-_tongue:

Edited by _WaveRider_

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3 hours ago, Lady_Athena said:

I know this discussion has been talked about alot, but seriously.. I don't want to see another 3 years of CV's being in such a crappy state. --------

Playing both against and as CV's simply isn't fun in many ways. I still play them because they are interesting to play and quite different than usual when I want to mix things up.. but they are hurting..

Take my last game for instance (Both tier 6 US). Both CV's smashed each other, very quickly into the game we had nothing left. Why? Mainly because we both outplayed each other. We hit each others torps, got good fights in with our fighters, but... the ships AA's do so much damage, every time I fly my planes against even the weakest of their BB's going it alone, half my squads are both wiped out. That's without a Cruiser covering them...

15 minutes in the enemy CV had zero planes, and I was left with 1 bomber left. I used this bomber extremely well, even got 2 hits in on DD's, and by 20 minutes I kept the DD's pushing the caps lit up, allowing our team to push them out, and spotted incoming torps way in advance, helping the BB's dodge them. I only did about 6k damage all game, not great damage wise, but I did ALOT for the team in keeping the enemy spotted, keeping tabs on the DD's, and being an early warning radar for incoming torps. Yet I get nothing for it. No spotting damage income of any kind, nothing for keeping the DD's lit up in the cap who are taking damage because of me, we won with the timer runnning out and only 5 points ahead, and I honestly feel its because of me. It was literally BB's vs DD's.. without me the BB's would of been blind, deaf, and had no idea where to focus, or go.

-----------------------------

I really feel like at LEAST credit wise, something can be done with CV's, at least give CV's spotting points for specific situations, like ships in a cap being spotted by ONLY the CV's planes, and taking damage the CV should be rewarded.

--------------------------------

 

But going past this.. I have other idea's that could be played with to fix CV's both playing against, and as them...

 

1) Remove manual drops. It's both unfair, broken, and really takes no real amount of skill to use.. You stack your torp planes, and get a free kill.. GG? This is coming from a person who likes to play carriers.. so that says something..

2) move in the auto drop range a little bit. Not as bad as manual drops by any means, but enough that if a ship isn't already reacting to the planes, chances are they are going to take damage.

3) lower bomb damage, but increase fire chance, and increase the amount bombs/HE damages secondaries.

4) Make AA on ships have 2 parts to them. The damage, and "concussion". The more incoming AA the more fractured the drop will be by both torpedoes, and bombers.

5) Lower the AA damage across the board. Only AA kited ships, and heavy AA cruisers/BBs should be knocking over half the squadron out of the sky on a single attack. The rest should be relying on the "concussion" stat to minimize the damage, and spread the incoming attack opening a hole to avoid damage.

6) IF you keep it this much damage.. then increase the damage of AA, and remove the limited numbers of planes... This is an arcade game after all.. ships have unlimited shells, ships fire at crazy high accuracy than real life, ships heal "health points", and god knows what other unrealistic things in this game.. Why have limited planes? They aren't that OP, hell even destroyers with their mega ton nukes have unlimited torpedoes....

1. No. Manual drops are not as simple as "stack your tbs and free kill". Besides the real strengths of manual drops is the long drop and blind drop.

2. See above. A closer drop is ok but exposes you to more AA. It makes high AA targets more costly to strike. It also allows fast turning ships the ability to close the distance before your torps even arm.

3. Lower bomb damage and lower rng. Make closer to a set pattern. The fire chance is fine, so is it's ability to knock out modules. Especially the USN 1k lbs bombs. 

4. Good idea. I have suggested something similar in the past. A debuff instead of just damage. That way it is less all or nothing. 

5. See above. AA damage is fine it is just the all or nothing aspects that make it seem to good. There are also ways around AA like the before mentioned long drop and friendly HE knocking out some AA mounts. Some ships should be "no fly zones", it is good for the game and creates more ways for skilled players to out preform lesser ones.

6. Tier 6 sees tier 8 AA. Which has to be strong enough to endure CVS with double a t6 hanger. Could you imagine if AA was lowered so that a t6 cv only lost 1/2 it's planes to AA built ships when those same ships faced an Enterprise.

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Just now, StoneRhino said:

1. No. Manual drops are not as simple as "stack your tbs and free kill". Besides the real strengths of manual drops is the long drop and blind drop.

2. See above. A closer drop is ok but exposes you to more AA. It makes high AA targets more costly to strike. It also allows fast turning ships the ability to close the distance before your torps even arm.

3. Lower bomb damage and lower rng. Make closer to a set pattern. The fire chance is fine, so is it's ability to knock out modules. Especially the USN 1k lbs bombs. 

4. Good idea. I have suggested something similar in the past. A debuff instead of just damage. That way it is less all or nothing. 

5. See above. AA damage is fine it is just the all or nothing aspects that make it seem to good. There are also ways around AA like the before mentioned long drop and friendly HE knocking out some AA mounts. Some ships should be "no fly zones", it is good for the game and creates more ways for skilled players to out preform lesser ones.

6. Tier 6 sees tier 8 AA. Which has to be strong enough to endure CVS with double a t6 hanger. Could you imagine if AA was lowered so that a t6 cv only lost 1/2 it's planes to AA built ships when those same ships faced an Enterprise.

Regardless, manual drops, lets set aside the fact if it takes skill or not. The fact that its a free kill at all that's 100% guaranteed is crap, and needs to be removed.

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1 minute ago, Lady_Athena said:

Regardless, manual drops, lets set aside the fact if it takes skill or not. The fact that its a free kill at all that's 100% guaranteed is crap, and needs to be removed.

So is the fact that if you miss with the toroedoes, they double back, and your bombers get a mid air rearm.

What you see as a free kill is actually the result of terrible players being terrible.

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16 minutes ago, cometguy said:

So is the fact that if you miss with the toroedoes, they double back, and your bombers get a mid air rearm.

What you see as a free kill is actually the result of terrible players being terrible.

do you even play?

 

So 12 torpeodes stack ontop of each  other literally meters away from your ship when they are dropped is the result of me being crap? #logic

 

Please oh great one, tell me how to turn my battleship 90 degree's in .2 seconds.

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19 minutes ago, Lady_Athena said:

Regardless, manual drops, lets set aside the fact if it takes skill or not. The fact that its a free kill at all that's 100% guaranteed is crap, and needs to be removed.

If I show you a t6 BB eating all 8 of a Ryujp's torpedoes and not sinking, Will you admit that you statement is hyperbole?

Be careful truths be this way.

Spoiler

y5hJUGY.jpg

 

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41 minutes ago, _WaveRider_ said:

They also have two BBs that sit at the top for torpedo hit rate.

There ain't nothin a BB can't do! :Smile_teethhappy::Smile-_tongue:

...except dodge DWTs, maybe :Smile-_tongue:

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2 minutes ago, StoneRhino said:

If I show you a t6 BB eating all 8 of a Ryujp's torpedoes and not sinking, Will you admit that you statement is hyperbole?

Be careful truths be this way.

  Reveal hidden contents

y5hJUGY.jpg

 

Try a JPN CV at tier 7+ then come back to me.

Then again losing 90% of your HP and only having about 25% to play with the rest of the game is still [edited]. It shouldn't be in the game. Showing me low tiers and ignoring everything else to make a point isn't making a point.

I said it shouldn't be in the game, not that it's possible in tier 6. ValidCounterArgument.dll not found.

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1 minute ago, Lady_Athena said:

do you even play?

 

So 12 torpeodes stack ontop of each  other literally meters away from your ship when they are dropped is the result of me being crap? #logic

 

Please oh great one, tell me how to turn my battleship 90 degree's in .2 seconds.

Yep, I've never played CV. You got me. And I certainly haven't been so amazing that I could become a CV expert after 17 games with a manual drop. But I'm going to clue you in on this neat thing I discovered: you can turn your ship prior to toroedoes being in the water.

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22 minutes ago, cometguy said:

So is the fact that if you miss with the toroedoes, they double back, and your bombers get a mid air rearm.

What you see as a free kill is actually the result of terrible players being terrible.

This, some players are an absolute nightmare to try and hit. manual drop or no.

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5 minutes ago, cometguy said:

Yep, I've never played CV. You got me. And I certainly haven't been so amazing that I could become a CV expert after 17 games with a manual drop. But I'm going to clue you in on this neat thing I discovered: you can turn your ship prior to toroedoes being in the water.

Turn your ship prior to the torpedoes does nothing to phase a manual drop. Argument not valid. You're still dropping them inches away from the enemy ship at the angle you wish, and takes less than 2 seconds for them to hit the enemy ship and all hit.

The easy trick is to come in on a battleship bow on. You've just won. Period. If he tries to turn he exposes an easy broad side hit. If he continues going straight, he just provided you the easiest cross drop imaginable... It's a lose/lose. Now manual drop both of those.. GG.. practically a free kill, and if by some miracle it doesn't kill him, he's going to be so insanely low on HP the rest of the game its pretty much a free kill for anyone else.

5 minutes ago, StoneRhino said:

This, some players are an absolute nightmare to try and hit. manual drop or no.

Exceptions to the rule, does not invalidate the rule as a whole. Again validargument.dll not found.

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2 minutes ago, Lady_Athena said:

Try a JPN CV at tier 7+ then come back to me.

Then again losing 90% of your HP and only having about 25% to play with the rest of the game is still [edited]. It shouldn't be in the game. Showing me low tiers and ignoring everything else to make a point isn't making a point.

I stopped playing Hiryu when I unlocked Shokaku. Something like 120 games 70% win rate. @cometguy last time I saw was something like 1k games in Hiryu with a 75% winrate.   

I also have the Lexington and all Prem CVs except for GZ.

You may want to rethink you "YOU just don't understand yet" approach.

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1 minute ago, StoneRhino said:

I stopped playing Hiryu when I unlocked Shokaku. Something like 120 games 70% win rate. @cometguy last time I saw was something like 1k games in Hiryu with a 75% winrate.   

I also have the Lexington and all Prem CVs except for GZ.

You may want to rethink you "YOU just don't understand yet" approach.

SO you want it in because you like how easy it is. I understand. I am looking for balance though.

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1 minute ago, Lady_Athena said:

Turn your ship prior to the torpedoes does nothing to phase a manual drop. Argument not valid. You're still dropping them inches away from the enemy ship at the angle you wish, and takes less than 2 seconds for them to hit the enemy ship and all hit.

Your own stats in CVs contradict this. You do less damage, and sink fewer ships than the average player. So if what you say is true, how are you not getting at least a kill per game?

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1 minute ago, cometguy said:

Your own stats in CVs contradict this. You do less damage, and sink fewer ships than the average player. So if what you say is true, how are you not getting at least a kill per game?

I don't manual drop. Everytime I do I feel like I just cheated someone. I'd rather auto drop, and use my planes in other ways to help the team as well as doing damage. Most people do manual drop hence why my damage is below average. I also don't play CV's that much, but I find manual drops to be absurdly easy to pull off.

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12 minutes ago, Thornir said:

...except dodge DWTs, maybe :Smile-_tongue:

Easy when once seen always seen; all they need to do is use their screen. :Smile_Default:

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1 minute ago, Lady_Athena said:

I don't manual drop.

So you're talking about what can and cannot be done with manual drops without having ever put your beliefs to the test, and think you know more about it than people who do have experience using them?

 

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3 minutes ago, Lady_Athena said:

SO you want it in because you like how easy it is. I understand. I am looking for balance though.

Not really I just understand that without manual drops I would have nothing to fear in my BBs, IJN BBs at that.

I also understand that without manual drops a ship in smoke is immune to CVs

I also understand that without manual drops high AA ships are immune to CVs.

 

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4 hours ago, Lady_Athena said:

Playing both against and as CV's simply isn't fun in many ways. I still play them because they are interesting to play and quite different than usual when I want to mix things up..

be honest, just how many battles in a cv have you played, on this account since Alpha? Fewer than 100

The OP would be more effective and sincere by stating, "I don't play CVs very often, and have progressed as far as tier6, so far, but here are my impressions.."

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