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Even after getting the North Carolina, I still think the Standards are the best.

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So I've gotten the North Carolina, used my free EXP to fully upgrade her, and played a few battles (10). The shell velocity is excruciatingly frustrating, she is a much bigger target, and most of all, I can't get used to the very slow pace of game play past Tier 7. I've had a much better experience overall in the New Mexico and Colorado, which I perform above average in. Throughout my entire WoWS career to date, I've only ever performed decently in a few ships. The Standard type battleships are maneuverable, they have more manageable shell arcs, and can take a beating. They don't see Tier 10, which frequently occurs in the North Carolina. Unfortunately the passive camping has trickled down to even the mid-tiers, and I don't know if it will ever change.

 

I would really like to see a second USN BB line with Nevada at Tier 5, Pennsylvania at Tier 6, Tennessee at Tier 7, and South Dakota at Tier 8. Tiers 5-7 are my favorite tiers, but 5 and 6 currently suffer from atrocious matchmaking. Screw that.

Edited by Zionas
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Tier 8-10 is a strange sort of game.  Keep your eyes open and watch the technique.  It's part chess game, and part ambush.

Higher tier ships have better concealment, so a hidden T10 battleship can suck down half your health -- and you never see it coming.. or even who did it.

Gather your intel at the beginning of a match and see who you are immediately up against.  Learn about these ships and respond accordingly.

As far as grind lines go, King George V is my favorite T7 ship.  North Carolina is my favorite T8.  Sorry Bismarck.  Although Richelieau is pretty good.

 

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KGV is a good ship with that HE, but she's still quite fragile and I'm not performing well in her compared to WT average. On the other hand I have above average K/D, damage, and ship kill ratios in the NM and Colorado. When you do think they will release a 2nd USN BB line? Yeah, I find it hard to grasp the rhythm of Tiers 8 to 10, but I'm also seeing this more and more in lower tiers.

Edited by Zionas

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1 hour ago, Zionas said:

The Standard type battleships are maneuverable, they have more manageable shell arcs, and can take a beating.

Yeah; Colorado is one of my best performers.

(-)

While there are other 'reasons' behind why I hate high tier gameplay so much; what really turned me against it was my experience in World of Tanks...

Tier 1 tankette. Couple hundred hp at most. Drive around a bit, trying to learn how things work, die instantly.

Tier 6 to 8 tank. A thousand or more hp. Drive around a bit, trying to help my team and not be completely useless, die instantly.

The bitterness of basically the same experience, despite better survivability, bleed over so strongly from Tanks to Ships (via 'guilt by association,') I utterly despise high tier games.

An exercise in boredom at best; completely futile at worst.

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The depressing fragility of the higher tier US BB's combined with those infernal floating shell arcs makes it a painful experience for me. I have to keep my distance to avoid eating piles of citadels since the NC basically has just enough armor to trigger every AP fuse in the game, but not enough to stop anything... but by doing that, those blasted floating shell arcs made it very difficult to land good hits on any foe that's paying attention. it's just an annoying game experience: you can't "tank" as a BB should, or even safely take some hits, and your shells are so inaccurate (not the sigma grouping, but the long flight time) that you can't easily hit things when hanging back. It's frustrating, for sure, and feels more like I'm playing a big cruiser / target than a BB.

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3 hours ago, old_radagast said:

The depressing fragility of the higher tier US BB's combined with those infernal floating shell arcs makes it a painful experience for me. I have to keep my distance to avoid eating piles of citadels since the NC basically has just enough armor to trigger every AP fuse in the game, but not enough to stop anything... but by doing that, those blasted floating shell arcs made it very difficult to land good hits on any foe that's paying attention. it's just an annoying game experience: you can't "tank" as a BB should, or even safely take some hits, and your shells are so inaccurate (not the sigma grouping, but the long flight time) that you can't easily hit things when hanging back. It's frustrating, for sure, and feels more like I'm playing a big cruiser / target than a BB.

Sounds like you like sailing broadside, you should try not don't that. The NC is one of the best maneuvering BBs in T8, use that to swing the back end of to fire the rest turrets or to bait shells into your angled belt

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4 minutes ago, Psycodiver said:

Sounds like you like sailing broadside, you should try not don't that. The NC is one of the best maneuvering BBs in T8, use that to swing the back end of to fire the rest turrets or to bait shells into your angled belt

Understood - the main problem is that at some point I have to make a turn - I can't sail angled forwards forever unless I want to eat piles of torps (which the NC can't resist well at all) - and that's when every BB on the map seems to notice me and punish me for turning. If I keep a distance to avoid such shots and take advantage of the NC's good concealment, the lousy, slow arcing shells reduce my damage output because anything faster than an island can get out of their way before they land.

I get it that the NC is technically a good ship, but I'm having a miserable time in her. At least the slower Standards can take a hit and I can't go make a cup of coffee while waiting for the shells to land. Yes, it's me, I guess, but still... the NC has a combination of traits that can be annoying.

Edited by old_radagast

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1 minute ago, old_radagast said:

Understood - the main problem is that at some point I have to make a turn - I can't sail angled forwards forever unless I want to eat piles of torps (which the NC can't resist well at all) - and that's when every BB on the map seems to notice me and punish me for turning. If I keep a distance to avoid such shots and take advantage of the NC's good concealment, the lousy, slow arcing shells reduce my damage output because anything faster than an island can get out of their way before they land.

I get it that the NC is technically a good ship, but I'm having a miserable time in her. At least the slower Standards can take a hit and I can't go make a cup of coffee while waiting for the shells to land. Yes, it's me, I guess, but still... the NC has a combination of traits that can be annoying.

Your fairly new to high tier battles from what I gathered from your stats, I'm not surprised your struggling because it's a rather big change in play style. I even stopped playing my NC for a couple months because of it. NC was my first T8 and it took me a while to figure her out. Concealment build is your best friend with this ship because it allows you vanish and move across the map if your in a bad spot

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46 minutes ago, Psycodiver said:

Your fairly new to high tier battles from what I gathered from your stats, I'm not surprised your struggling because it's a rather big change in play style. I even stopped playing my NC for a couple months because of it. NC was my first T8 and it took me a while to figure her out. Concealment build is your best friend with this ship because it allows you vanish and move across the map if your in a bad spot

Agreed - I freely admit I'm new to high tier and I'm still learning the ship. I do run concealment on her (the upgrade, her permanent camo, and eventually concealment expert.) In short, you're completely correct - I need more practice and the NC is not a bad ship. But she can be frustrating to transition to from the slower Standards, especially since popular opinion tends to be "US Standards are awful, and the NC is the first good ship in the line after the Wyoming." She's good, objectively, but adapting to the subtle but often painful changes in game play can be a challenge. Also, I wouldn't say the Standards are "bad," but they can be a bit dull and their low speed hurts by tier 7.

Not complaining, but it is frustrating... I need to watch more videos on how to handle the NC better. 

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31 minutes ago, old_radagast said:

Agreed - I freely admit I'm new to high tier and I'm still learning the ship. I do run concealment on her (the upgrade, her permanent camo, and eventually concealment expert.) In short, you're completely correct - I need more practice and the NC is not a bad ship. But she can be frustrating to transition to from the slower Standards, especially since popular opinion tends to be "US Standards are awful, and the NC is the first good ship in the line after the Wyoming." She's good, objectively, but adapting to the subtle but often painful changes in game play can be a challenge. Also, I wouldn't say the Standards are "bad," but they can be a bit dull and their low speed hurts by tier 7.

Not complaining, but it is frustrating... I need to watch more videos on how to handle the NC better. 

The meta play style of the NC seems to be to find an island you like sit next to it all game changing between moving slightly forward then backing up, it makes it very hard for DD's to accurately torp you without flanking to your side and getting close and that is time they wont really be helping their team so usually they just ignore you. If the island camping style doesn't fit you then make sure when you engage ships you always stay outside your spotting range, if the engagement becomes too much then just stop firing until you re-stealth and use that time to turn. The main key to playing high tier is having good awareness, your rudder shift and turning circles in BB's are terrible so you have to start dodging torps long before they are spotted and you must always have a way out incase you need to retreat, never go into the open ocean or HE spammers will burn down all your health in seconds and DD's will use all that open space to just ride the detection range spamming torps. Always stay near islands or some cover that you can use to break from a losing engagement and be sure to tell your team so they know you wont be covering them anymore. 

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I had to adjust to the new playing style of the NC as well, but I like it a lot more than the Standards.  I'm slowly getting better at it, and I find the overall playstyle to be much more enjoyable.

NC shell velocity is very slow, but it hits like a freight train, and is more accurate than the Colorado.

 

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I do think the Standard USN BBs are amazing also.

 

They're easy to land penetrating damage on, easy to citadel, their massive superstructures are great for catching medium and small caliber shells, their 21kt and slower speeds make them ideal targets.  They can't run away, they can't charge me, they're just there to shoot at.  And of course, the 356mm shells and Colorado's weaker shells on her 406mm guns compared to later tiers, are not that threatening.  Their protection schemes are so suspect that they literally cannot defend themselves at any angle against the kind of shells I throw their way.  Also, Standard USN BBs, with the exception of Colorado, have sh*t AA and even more sh*t secondaries.

 

I do love seeing these ships.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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1 hour ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

I do think the Standard USN BBs are amazing also.

 

They're easy to land penetrating damage on, easy to citadel, their massive superstructures are great for catching medium and small caliber shells, their 21kt and slower speeds make them ideal targets.  They can't run away, they can't charge me, they're just there to shoot at.  And of course, the 356mm shells and Colorado's weaker shells on her 406mm guns compared to later tiers, are not that threatening.  Their protection schemes are so suspect that they literally cannot defend themselves at any angle against the kind of shells I throw their way.  Also, Standard USN BBs, with the exception of Colorado, have sh*t AA and even more sh*t secondaries.

 

I do love seeing these ships.

I love players like you because you are the ones that while and cry when I curb stomp them in my stomach, heck got called a hacker by a Gneiss captain because I completely schooled him in my Texas. He was so salty he wouldn't stop harassing me after the match I had to blacklist him

 

Let's not forget they have some of the best penetrating guns for each tier and the heaviest broadsides for each tier

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i love my Colorado..and she is a brawler ..you can sail in..swing broadside..and out shoot anything its tier. the NC you hang back and play at a slower pace..but god help anyone who shows you there broadside. i was playing a ranked battle the other day and had a ship sail broadside infront of me and i smacked them for 30k in one salvo

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4 hours ago, Psycodiver said:

I love players like you because you are the ones that while and cry when I curb stomp them in my stomach, heck got called a hacker by a Gneiss captain because I completely schooled him in my Texas. He was so salty he wouldn't stop harassing me after the match I had to blacklist him

 

Let's not forget they have some of the best penetrating guns for each tier and the heaviest broadsides for each tier

They are self towed target drones.  Low threat, low capability, easy to penetrate, easy to citadel, etc, etc.  Poor AA, poor secondaries, mediocre gunnery, mediocre range, mediocre shells.  They can't run, they can't chase.  They are just there to get shot up.

And torped.

And bombed.

And there's nothing they can do about it.

 

I have zero concern from Standard USN BBs.  They are simply not threatening targets.  You just keep pressure on the pillow until they stop struggling.

its-time-to-go-home-to-jesus.gif

Just whisper, "It's alright, it's alright.  It will be over soon" as you send them back to port.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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1 hour ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

They are self towed target drones.  Low threat, low capability, easy to penetrate, easy to citadel, etc, etc.  Poor AA, poor secondaries, mediocre gunnery, mediocre range, mediocre shells.  They can't run, they can't chase.  They are just there to get shot up.

And torped.

And bombed.

And there's nothing they can do about it.

 

I have zero concern from Standard USN BBs.  They are simply not threatening targets.  You just keep pressure on the pillow until they stop struggling.

its-time-to-go-home-to-jesus.gif

Just whisper, "It's alright, it's alright.  It will be over soon" as you send them back to port.

 

Just looked you up, I understand why you think they suck, its because you don't know how to play them. Just because you can't make a ship(s) perform doesn't mean its a bad ship(s), it just means you can't play them and your opinion is hard to take seriously at all. Personally I do great in them with 100k damage games pretty normal and if you ever want to get better with them feel free to hit me up in game, I would be glad to help make you a better captain

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Well, to be fair, the Standard's complete lack of speed is a huge problem when uptiered. 

4 hours ago, Psycodiver said:

 

Just looked you up, I understand why you think they suck, its because you don't know how to play them. Just because you can't make a ship(s) perform doesn't mean its a bad ship(s), it just means you can't play them and your opinion is hard to take seriously at all. Personally I do great in them with 100k damage games pretty normal and if you ever want to get better with them feel free to hit me up in game, I would be glad to help make you a better captain

That's being highly unfair. You don't know that he doesn't know how to play them - stats don't just reveal that. The converse of what you say can be applied to you:  just because you do well in them, doesn't mean they're not deficient for the general audience.

I tend to agree with @HazeGrayUnderway - while I enjoyed the shotgun-style that the NewMex was (and the limited issues that T8 uptiering brought), the T7 Colorado was just painful overall, as the lack of speed really makes them sitting ducks for DD and aerial torpedoes, not to mention being extremely prone to being torched by the myriad of T7-9 flamethrowing cruisers and DDs. That lack of speed puts them at a severe disadvantage for most players, as there's no real way to escape from situations that go bad (often through no fault of your own).

I'm not a big fan of the NC either, as I find the Missouri far superior in gunnery for some reason - I just hit stuff much better in the Missouri than the NC, even given that the arcs are pretty much the same.

 

 

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8 hours ago, EAnybody said:

Well, to be fair, the Standard's complete lack of speed is a huge problem when uptiered. 

That's being highly unfair. You don't know that he doesn't know how to play them - stats don't just reveal that. The converse of what you say can be applied to you:  just because you do well in them, doesn't mean they're not deficient for the general audience.

I tend to agree with @HazeGrayUnderway - while I enjoyed the shotgun-style that the NewMex was (and the limited issues that T8 uptiering brought), the T7 Colorado was just painful overall, as the lack of speed really makes them sitting ducks for DD and aerial torpedoes, not to mention being extremely prone to being torched by the myriad of T7-9 flamethrowing cruisers and DDs. That lack of speed puts them at a severe disadvantage for most players, as there's no real way to escape from situations that go bad (often through no fault of your own).

I'm not a big fan of the NC either, as I find the Missouri far superior in gunnery for some reason - I just hit stuff much better in the Missouri than the NC, even given that the arcs are pretty much the same.

 

 

 

Actually I can tell from his stats, his low accuracy and low average damage with moderate survival tells me he is either chai sniping or trying to sail from one side of the map to the other which doesn't work well with these ships

 

As I said before being good at these ships makes you a better captain because they require good positioning, good planning, knowing the limits of your own ship and reading the mini map. I have rarely found my speed a problem even in bottom tier and they guns and accuracy are some of the best for each tier, I actually made and posted charts here to prove the myth wrong. The problem with these ships is their not potato proof like the Germans and UK are

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On 5/4/2018 at 12:19 PM, old_radagast said:

Understood - the main problem is that at some point I have to make a turn - I can't sail angled forwards forever unless I want to eat piles of torps (which the NC can't resist well at all) - and that's when every BB on the map seems to notice me and punish me for turning. If I keep a distance to avoid such shots and take advantage of the NC's good concealment, the lousy, slow arcing shells reduce my damage output because anything faster than an island can get out of their way before they land.

I get it that the NC is technically a good ship, but I'm having a miserable time in her. At least the slower Standards can take a hit and I can't go make a cup of coffee while waiting for the shells to land. Yes, it's me, I guess, but still... the NC has a combination of traits that can be annoying.

You have to plan ahead and use an island to cover your turn , if you can't do that try to time your turn in between enemy salvos . Barring that , throw it into reverse and bowcamp till you can get behind cover .  You have enough speed to kite and get the hell outta Dodge in the NC if you have to as well . The only thing you're gonna kite in the Colorado is another Colorado or New Mexico , maybe a QE for awhile .

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A few thoughts: Thanks for the suggestions on handling the NC better - I'll try to work with them and improve in that ship.

As for the US Standards, they aren't great, true, but some of the claims, such as them being unable to handle torpedoes or having horrible AAA just aren't true. The Standards are stubby ships with tight turning radii - they are very well suited for evading torpedo drops, and most of them have decent to above average torp defense ratings. I've evaded countless torps in my US Standards because of their handling characteristics that a long, sleek, wide turning ship could never have evaded. And while their AAA may not be amazing, it's better than nearly any other comparable BB's at their tier almost consistently. 

If a player doesn't like them, fine, but that doesn't mean they are terrible in every conceivable way.

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I have kind of the opposite problem: Tanky is good, but lack of speed will kill me fast. I like Bayern well enough, I got through Queen Lizzy without much trouble, and Nagato is okay so far thanks to those SWEET 16" guns she has, but New Mexico? Just... Just kill me now. Please. Stick my head in the 14" gun and pull the trigger.

I played her in the Beta and had fun, but now that so many faster ships are in game I just cannot make her work for the life of me. But now? I keep running into Scharnhorsts, Normandies, KGVs, Gneisenaus, Lyons... I just can't deal with them. I can take a Colorado with some effort, I'll even duel another New Mexico or an Arizona, and give me cover and some luck to close in and I'll cook a Fuso's goose. But it's all these OTHER ships I just can't deal with. What should I be doing? How do I New Mexico? I don't want to drop the line, I want to finally get to the North Carolina one of these days (Alabama has given me a taste, I'm hooked), but I just cannot make New Mexico work with me.

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8 hours ago, Landsraad said:

I have kind of the opposite problem: Tanky is good, but lack of speed will kill me fast. I like Bayern well enough, I got through Queen Lizzy without much trouble, and Nagato is okay so far thanks to those SWEET 16" guns she has, but New Mexico? Just... Just kill me now. Please. Stick my head in the 14" gun and pull the trigger.

This. North Carolina's speed is the very best thing about it, even in a tier that's crowded with other fast battleships. You finally have the speed to flex and to evade pursuers, which is difficult to do when your adversaries keep getting faster and faster as you go up in tiers while you're stuck trundling along at 21 knots all the way up until tier 8.

The Standards were much less obnoxious to play before the introduction of so many other, faster mid-tier battleships.

--Helms

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On 5/4/2018 at 10:22 PM, Psycodiver said:

 

Just looked you up, I understand why you think they suck, its because you don't know how to play them. Just because you can't make a ship(s) perform doesn't mean its a bad ship(s), it just means you can't play them and your opinion is hard to take seriously at all. Personally I do great in them with 100k damage games pretty normal and if you ever want to get better with them feel free to hit me up in game, I would be glad to help make you a better captain

LOL of course I think they're garbage!  I'm shooting them up all the time! :Smile_teethhappy:


WTH are they going to do when the likes of Amagi, NC, Alabama, Iowa, Missouri, Scharnhorst are after them?  RUN AWAY AT 21KTS?  Tank with their bows?  LOL

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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6 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

LOL of course I think they're garbage!  I'm shooting them up all the time! :Smile_teethhappy:


WTH are they going to do when the likes of Amagi, NC, Alabama, Iowa, Missouri, Scharnhorst are after them?  RUN AWAY AT 21KTS?  Tank with their bows?  LOL

I love how you have 11,623 battles under your belt, and he pulls the whole:

On 5/4/2018 at 10:22 PM, Psycodiver said:

you don't know how to play

This has been the biggest laugh of my day.  HAHAHA.

Edited by Sventex

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On 5/5/2018 at 2:41 AM, EAnybody said:

Well, to be fair, the Standard's complete lack of speed is a huge problem when uptiered. 

That's being highly unfair. You don't know that he doesn't know how to play them - stats don't just reveal that. The converse of what you say can be applied to you:  just because you do well in them, doesn't mean they're not deficient for the general audience.

I tend to agree with @HazeGrayUnderway - while I enjoyed the shotgun-style that the NewMex was (and the limited issues that T8 uptiering brought), the T7 Colorado was just painful overall, as the lack of speed really makes them sitting ducks for DD and aerial torpedoes, not to mention being extremely prone to being torched by the myriad of T7-9 flamethrowing cruisers and DDs. That lack of speed puts them at a severe disadvantage for most players, as there's no real way to escape from situations that go bad (often through no fault of your own).

I'm not a big fan of the NC either, as I find the Missouri far superior in gunnery for some reason - I just hit stuff much better in the Missouri than the NC, even given that the arcs are pretty much the same.

 

 

No, that's fine, he can snipe my stats as much as he wants.  He failed in his argument when he started using personal stats to show the state of a ship.

 

Notice in all my posting it's all about facts on these ships.

 

Slow speed.

Unreliable guns.

Eating pens, citadels, which is a fact given how they cannot tank damage.  15" guns wreck most of these Standard USN BBs and 16" guns perforate them.  It is why even a Tier VI BB with 15" guns like Warspite, QE, even Bayern are very dangerous to the USN Standard BBs.  THAT IS FACT.

Etc.

Etc.

 

I never pulled into someone's stats, but we all know what these ship strengths and many weaknesses are.

 

And in the current MM, it's made even worse.

 

I'm good bro, this is old hat to me :Smile_honoring:

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