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_Big_Lou_

Angling or Kiting

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Captains,

 

I have been thinking about the logic of kiting and the game mechanics. I can't seem to settle my mind if kiting itself is effective or if it is simply angling. Consider this scenario:

 

Two identical ships with symmetric guns (ex: Bayern) are engaged in battle. Both captains have the same skill (driving/aiming etc.). The only difference is that one is kiting while the other is advancing. If both ships are properly angling for incoming and outgoing shots, who wins? Is there an inherent advantage to a kiting ship or is it simply angling?

 

Thank you for an explanation of your opinion.

 

Happy hunting,

Lou

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In your theoretical 1v1 it's equal, unless either ship has a better armor profile in either direction. However, such 1v1s don't happen often and kiting becomes very helpful when you can lure ships into your team's guns or prevent yourself driving into his team's. It's often more about tactical positioning than just showing angle.

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11 minutes ago, _Big_Lou_ said:

Captains,

 

I have been thinking about the logic of kiting and the game mechanics. I can't seem to settle my mind if kiting itself is effective or if it is simply angling. Consider this scenario:

 

Two identical ships with symmetric guns (ex: Bayern) are engaged in battle. Both captains have the same skill (driving/aiming etc.). The only difference is that one is kiting while the other is advancing. If both ships are properly angling for incoming and outgoing shots, who wins? Is there an inherent advantage to a kiting ship or is it simply angling?

 

Thank you for an explanation of your opinion.

 

Happy hunting,

Lou

I have HEARD (no idea if it's true) before that a ship coming towards you at a decent angle (not broadside, but approaching it) is the hardest target to hit. Maybe that extends to your scenario? 

 

Otherwise I suppose tactically the kiting ship maintains the advantage in a pure 1v1 fight because he gets to dictate the terms of the engagement in your scenario. 

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Kiting is drawing enemy ships away from the fight and out of position. Kiting can be done by angling or by not angling. The two are completely separate concepts.

Edited by FleetAdmiral_Assassin
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In your scenario, who ever aims better wins.

The kiter can have the advantage depending on the pursuit of the target. But the kiter could possible take more damage if not angled correctly. There is a balance for both but you have to know your opponent ships stats as well as your own. Both are equally great as a skill and both can be achieved at the same time. 

Depending on how much health each ship has can also play a role in deciding which to use. 

 

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56 minutes ago, _Big_Lou_ said:

Captains,

 

I have been thinking about the logic of kiting and the game mechanics. I can't seem to settle my mind if kiting itself is effective or if it is simply angling. Consider this scenario:

 

Two identical ships with symmetric guns (ex: Bayern) are engaged in battle. Both captains have the same skill (driving/aiming etc.). The only difference is that one is kiting while the other is advancing. If both ships are properly angling for incoming and outgoing shots, who wins? Is there an inherent advantage to a kiting ship or is it simply angling?

 

Thank you for an explanation of your opini

 

Happy hunting,

Lou

Hey Big_Lou - Under the assumptions of a ship w/ symmetrical gun angles & distribution in a approaching or retreating angling scenario - the kiting ship has a definite mathematical advantage.

When approaching angled head on:

  • You have a engagement scenario that has more or less symmetric engagement characteristics that spans the closure engagement ranges of long-range, medium-range, short-range brawl rapidly.  Given 2 full speed BBs at full health, you will have no particular advantage over your opponent in this case RNG & player skill will determine the outcome.

When kiting, the retreating ship has the advantage since:

  • Your engagement range will remain more or less static since you're identical ships and more or less identically angled
  • The retreating ship's shells have a shorter distance to travel since the advancing ship is closing the distance so you have a shorter distance to shoot.
  • The advancing ship's shells have a longer distance to travel since the retreating ship is constantly moving away.

This means the kiting ship will have the better dispersion of shot due to the shorter shell flight time and shooting distance over the chasing ship.  This is akin to the retreating ship taking a 8 km shot vs. the chasing ship taking a 10 km shot as an example.

  • Given all other factors (ships/captain skills) being equal, the statistical RNG favors the kiting ship over the chasing ship.
  • Since you're holding your engagement distance more or less constant, you're effectively extending the length of your engagement and your RNG advantage over time.
Edited by hangglide42
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not sure why but in the scenario above  id rather be kiting since i find it easier to give the front guns an angle to shoot every once in a while.  if im advancing and try to get my rear guns and angle ill find myslef out of position . meaning ill break contact  quicker .  The front ship is the lead so dictates where the fight goes. 

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37 minutes ago, _Big_Lou_ said:

Captains,

 

I have been thinking about the logic of kiting and the game mechanics. I can't seem to settle my mind if kiting itself is effective or if it is simply angling. Consider this scenario:

 

Two identical ships with symmetric guns (ex: Bayern) are engaged in battle. Both captains have the same skill (driving/aiming etc.). The only difference is that one is kiting while the other is advancing. If both ships are properly angling for incoming and outgoing shots, who wins? Is there an inherent advantage to a kiting ship or is it simply angling?

 

Thank you for an explanation of your opinion.

 

Happy hunting,

Lou

In a 1v1 situation, it does not matter. As in pretty much everything context matters. On the map "North" I was in my Alsace. I was pushing A but quickly realized we were hopelessly outmatched. I kited south and east and had 4 ships chasing me the entire match trying to finish me off. I kept them from playing the objective and giving my team a numbers advantage elsewhere. We wound up stomping the opposing team in part because those four dummies were chasing me the entire match.

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I sorta doubt my video is what you are trying to do... but for Richelieu specifically.... if I do get into a 1v1 situation with a BB, I will bow attack him for as long as possible. However, I always expect that he will try to ram me so I will turn away after firing my last salvo and basically to something like a U-Turn while my guns are turning the opposite direction while my secondaries are also hitting him. I will keep turning in order to hit him and then I may do random stuff...

 

 

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16 minutes ago, FleetAdmiral_Assassin said:

Kiting is drawing enemy ships away from the fight and out of position. 

"away from the fight and out of position" is a by-product of kiting and not inherent to it. I can be kiting towards an objective if I want to.

 

 

Besides in his own post he says:

55 minutes ago, _Big_Lou_ said:

who wins? Is there an inherent advantage to a kiting ship or is it simply angling?

He illustrates that he understands kiting and angling are separate concepts because he is asking which makes the biggest impact. 

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2 minutes ago, Happy668 said:

the title should be kiting vs chasing, i prefer kite to chase

I use the term "run n gun". If a lone ship is running away and has high detection or is spotted, it is always better to run to the next objective while shooting him. He should not be the main objective, the next cap should be.

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Kiting allows you to lead enemy ships away from the battle. If you can get 3 ships to follow just yourself to remote places on the map, while still causing fires and havoc. The odds of your team actually concentrating fire on the rest of the enemy team increase. I love getting the reds to chase the rainbow. They may eventually get you but by then your team is ahead and can easily finish off the chasers. I really try to do this when on the Ocean map which of course happens far too little. I love that map.

Edited by Sovereigndawg

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2 minutes ago, ArgosRising said:

"away from the fight and out of position" is a by-product of kiting and not inherent to it. I can be kiting towards an objective if I want to.

 

 

Besides in his own post he says:

He illustrates that he understands kiting and angling are separate concepts because he is asking which makes the biggest impact. 

Kiting got its name from flying a kite (kite is attached to you by a string, and you lead it around). Kiting is getting an enemy to follow you. As such, you can't kite by moving towards the enemy.

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Certain ships kiting is good I know ive gone 1vs 1 against many an Atago a few times I was at gun range limit while he\she was chasing me and I was able to shoot at it while he could not hit me cause the distance and speed where equal  as the fight went on  his shells would allways land just short of me while mine would allways hit him

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18 minutes ago, FleetAdmiral_Assassin said:

Kiting is drawing enemy ships away from the fight and out of position. Kiting can be done by angling or by not angling. The two are completely separate concepts.

And baiting the pursuing red/s by teasing them with fleeting glimpses of your flattening side can be quite effective.

 

Imaging how effective having modded camo with murals of female breasts painted in the sides your ship could be... maybe a beautiful booty painted on the stern too for good measure. 

ff6cdd7e3ded2c34b10425ab3b94f510--albert

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1 hour ago, _Big_Lou_ said:

Captains,

 

I have been thinking about the logic of kiting and the game mechanics. I can't seem to settle my mind if kiting itself is effective or if it is simply angling. Consider this scenario:

 

Two identical ships with symmetric guns (ex: Bayern) are engaged in battle. Both captains have the same skill (driving/aiming etc.). The only difference is that one is kiting while the other is advancing. If both ships are properly angling for incoming and outgoing shots, who wins? Is there an inherent advantage to a kiting ship or is it simply angling?

 

Thank you for an explanation of your opinion.

 

Happy hunting,

Lou

Angling and Kiting are completely different tactics that have no interchanging relevance on the example you use.  You can angle while kiting but angling doesn't necessarily mean you're kiting - they're not the same thing.

Angling is simply used to increase the odds of AP rounds deflecting off armored areas.  You can do this whether you're facing towards or away from an opposing ship.

Kiting is a tactic used to lure a trailing enemy ship at range.  Picture the kiting ship as a kite and the trailing ship as the person holding the kite (hence the term "kiting").  The kiting ship is driving away from his target while keeping it at close to maximum gunnery range, while the target ship is in chase.  Kiting is usually carried out by fast and elusive ships with a high rate of fire, against slower, larger targets.  Particularly, many Russian DDs in the game are ideally suited to kiting, as are some cruisers such as the Phoenix, Emile Bertin, etc.  Battleship are not well-suited to this tactic as it requires them to maintain a generally straight course for long periods of time - never a good idea in battleships.  Also, long range gunnery is not the best use of battleships.

You'll see arguments suggesting that kiting is used to lure ships away from battle but it can used to equal effect trailing ships towards contested areas as well, or toward a gunnery ambush that your target doesn't see or anticipate.

Edited by Kuckoo

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Kiting can involve angling, but more importantly, it gives you shorter lead times (because your target is closing), forces the enemy to spend angle or lose distance (unmasking all guns means moving diagonal to the direction of chase), and lets you control the location of the fight (or makes the enemy disengage).

Some ships also have significantly different armor schemes or gun placement in the front vs. the rear.

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Kiting has a tactical advantage because the leading ship can control the terms of the fight (going dark, for instance).  The disadvantage is that some team mates always think your kiting is "running away" with all the chat [edited] that follows.  

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Depends on distance. "Zone of immunity" is a thing in this game, even though it's not that apparent.

 

For German ships, they don't like to take plunging fire (same for Montana and Iowa because lawl paper thing turret roof).

 

There is some target locking problem with bow on and target locking problem on targets near max range. The issue makes a kiting target more difficult to hit. 

Edited by NeutralState

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1 minute ago, FleetAdmiral_Assassin said:

Kiting got its name from flying a kite (kite is attached to you by a string, and you lead it around). Kiting is getting an enemy to follow you. As such, you can't kite by moving towards the enemy.

Well first, this is not what I said.

 

28 minutes ago, FleetAdmiral_Assassin said:

Kiting is drawing enemy ships away from the fight

I was responding to what you said here. "Away from the fight" which is not necessarily true.  Kiting refers not to making an enemy chase you, but keeping your enemy at a distance that is advantageous to you. Generally this means they follow you because they want to kill you and probably are better at fighting at close range and this a lot of times mean they spend most of the time following you. But kiting as a technique is done generally because you are better at long range than close range and in many cases the opposite is true for them. Kiting is common in a lot of video games, and in many cases it has nothing to do with positioning but more to do with the style of combat you are using. 

 

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In your scenario, kiting ship looses.

Stern armour is weaker than bow, thus more penetrating hits taken.

Advancing ship is only exposing his weak superstructure.

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1 minute ago, PrairiePlayer said:

Kiting has a tactical advantage because the leading ship can control the terms of the fight (going dark, for instance).  The disadvantage is that some team mates always think your kiting is "running away" with all the chat [edited] that follows.  

Yeah, this is especially annoying.  The noise usually comes from some clueless plebeians who expect you to charge your Emile Bertin headfirst into a gaggle of BBs.  Ballsy, maybe.  Brainless, absolutely.

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10 minutes ago, lemekillmister said:

And baiting the pursuing red/s by teasing them with fleeting glimpses of your flattening side can be quite effective.

 

Imaging how effective having modded camo with murals of female breasts painted in the sides your ship could be... maybe a beautiful booty painted on the stern too for good measure. 

ff6cdd7e3ded2c34b10425ab3b94f510--albert

My buddy used to paint "nose" art on his battlemechs, and does it on all his Imperial Guard vehicles.   The fact that he's an amazing artist to begin with helps.

Sadly,  we used to focus fire his stuff, so we could remove it from the table to examine.

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