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JohnPJones

Pre-WWII ships in WWII

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What pre-WWII ship/class saw the most action and which were the most effective despite their outdated status?

 

so we’re talking ships and classes commissioned before September 1939

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7 minutes ago, JohnPJones said:

What pre-WWII ship/class saw the most action and which were the most effective despite their outdated status?

 

so we’re talking ships and classes commissioned before September 1939

I think that your time frame combined with your assertion about those ships being "outdated" is fallacious. I think that you should be setting the date earlier, say around 1930.  I mean seriously.  Were the South Dakota and North Carolina class BBs "outdated"?  Or some of the cruiser classes that were built in the 1930's but before 9/39?  To me, for the most part, anything built in the 30's, particularly from about the mid-30's on, are not outdated at all.  That's not to say that there weren't advancements during WW2, but they really weren't outdated either.

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A good majority of ships that were involved in WWIi were built during WWI and even saw active service during WWI, yet, some still fought in WWII.

 

A good example would be the Kongo, She was first built in 1913 got rebuild as a Battleship in 1929, and didn't get anymore upgrades Until 1935 and remained that way all throughout WWII. Just because a ship came from WWI doesn't make it outdated.

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14 minutes ago, Crucis said:

I think that your time frame combined with your assertion about those ships being "outdated" is fallacious. I think that you should be setting the date earlier, say around 1930.  I mean seriously.  Were the South Dakota and North Carolina class BBs "outdated"?  Or some of the cruiser classes that were built in the 1930's but before 9/39?  To me, for the most part, anything built in the 30's, particularly from about the mid-30's on, are not outdated at all.  That's not to say that there weren't advancements during WW2, but they really weren't outdated either.

Unwad your underpants.

So you’re mad that a few ships that you disagree with are being called out dated?  

But ya I’d say a ship commissioned in ‘35 was pretty outdated by the war’s end. Things advanced quickly after the war kicked off.

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7 minutes ago, Submarine_Albacore said:

A good majority of ships that were involved in WWIi were built during WWI and even saw active service during WWI, yet, some still fought in WWII.

 

A good example would be the Kongo, She was first built in 1913 got rebuild as a Battleship in 1929, and didn't get anymore upgrades Until 1935 and remained that way all throughout WWII. Just because a ship came from WWI doesn't make it outdated.

And yet by 1945 it was out dated.

if we were talking about a war that only lasted a year or two or saw minimal technological or design advancement I’d agree but there were major advances in naval warfare by the time the war ended.

so a ship from 1935 might not have been outdated compared to a ship from late 1939 but when compared to something like an Iowa or an Alaska the Kongo was very much outdated. Still dangerous, but outdated nonetheless 

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3 minutes ago, JohnPJones said:

And yet by 1945 it was out dated.

if we were talking about a war that only lasted a year or two or saw minimal technological or design advancement I’d agree but there were major advances in naval warfare by the time the war ended.

so a ship from 1935 might not have been outdated compared to a ship from late 1939 but when compared to something like an Iowa or an Alaska the Kongo was very much outdated. Still dangerous, but outdated nonetheless 

1945 was the end of the war basically, by then, even some ships built in WWII could arguably be considered outdated by that time. Even Iowa and Alaska became outdated as well once DDGs came along, and of course a ship from 1913 would be considered outdated to something that was built a good couple of years after it. 

 

Whats ya point?

Edited by Submarine_Albacore

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4 minutes ago, Submarine_Albacore said:

1945 was the end of the war basically, by then, even some ships built in WWII could arguably be considered outdated by that time. Even Iowa and Alaska became outdated as well once DDGs came along, and of course a ship from 1913 would be considered outdated to something that was built a good couple of years after it. 

 

Whats ya point?

I’m being criticized for saying ships built in 1935 or even early 1939 were outdated, I’m pointing out that by the end of the war they were.

they were still useful for sure (hence why they were still in use)but out dated.

 

i didn’t expect such a hyper focus on a handful of years just before WWII, so I didn’t think it was necessary to specify my interest was primarily in pre-‘35 but I guess people have to get defensive over everything 

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The OP doesn’t seem to understand warships.  It’s not like comparing a 1939 Hawker Hurricane to an Me-262.  Naval technology is just different.  A ship then had a lifespan of decades.  Look at Iowa, for example.  The design was done in 1939, and the ship was commissioned in 1943.  By the time she retired in 1990, her capabilities and mission were considerably different than what her designers imagined in the late 1930s.  Refits and overhauls add considerable capability to a ship over time.

 

Most combatants didn’t build many capital ships during the war.  In terms of large warships, WW2 was largely fought by ships either in service or under construction in 1939 (USN aside)..

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Just now, MikeLWX said:

The OP doesn’t seem to understand warships.  It’s not like comparing a 1939 Hawker Hurricane to an Me-262.  Naval technology is just different.  A ship then had a lifespan of decades.  Look at Iowa, for example.  The design was done in 1939, and the ship was commissioned in 1943.  By the time she retired in 1990, her capabilities and mission were considerably different than what her designers imagined in the late 1930s.  Refits and overhauls add considerable capability to a ship over time.

 

Most combatants didn’t build many capital ships during the war.  In terms of large warships, WW2 was largely fought by ships either in service or under construction in 1939 (USN aside)..

This ^, this just really explains it.

 

 

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30 minutes ago, MikeLWX said:

The OP doesn’t seem to understand warships.  It’s not like comparing a 1939 Hawker Hurricane to an Me-262.  Naval technology is just different.  A ship then had a lifespan of decades.  Look at Iowa, for example.  The design was done in 1939, and the ship was commissioned in 1943.  By the time she retired in 1990, her capabilities and mission were considerably different than what her designers imagined in the late 1930s.  Refits and overhauls add considerable capability to a ship over time.

 

Most combatants didn’t build many capital ships during the war.  In terms of large warships, WW2 was largely fought by ships either in service or under construction in 1939 (USN aside)..

I understand warships just fine, but advancements in technology leave ships outdated. Yes the Iowas lasted a long time but they’re by and large an exception to the rule for the time she was built until the Cold War ships weren’t expected to be keeping up with technology their whole service lives, so upgradability wasn’t too great for ships built pre-39

 

theres a reason a ship class like the Omaha class was relegated to secondary roles, they were designed in WWI, built in the 20s and were completely out dated by ‘39 let alone when the US actually entered the war.

Edited by JohnPJones
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45 minutes ago, JohnPJones said:

I’m being criticized for saying ships built in 1935 or even early 1939 were outdated, I’m pointing out that by the end of the war they were.

they were still useful for sure (hence why they were still in use)but out dated.

 

i didn’t expect such a hyper focus on a handful of years just before WWII, so I didn’t think it was necessary to specify my interest was primarily in pre-‘35 but I guess people have to get defensive over everything 

Then maybe that should be an indication that the initial question was stupid.

 

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13 minutes ago, JohnPJones said:

I understand warships just fine, but advancements in technology leave ships outdated. Yes the Iowas lasted a long time but they’re by and large an exception to the rule for the time she was built until the Cold War ships weren’t expected to be keeping up with technology their whole service lives, so upgradability wasn’t too great for ships built pre-39

 

theres a reason a ship class like the Omaha class was relegated to secondary roles, they were designed in WWI, built in the 20s and were completely out dated by ‘39 let alone when the US actually entered the war.

And even by my standard, I'd define the Omaha as outdated entering WW2.  OBVIOUSLY outdated!

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But yes the examples of the Iowa and Kongo had upgrades largely due to their size. Big ships are easier to upgrade and keep relevant.

(hence why the FIII Burkes are pushing 10k tons)

 

where as a ship like Omaha or the Clemson class were outdated horribly by 1939, despite the former being a 6in armed cruiser. The size made it difficult to provide effective upgrades to them. 

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Actually Clemson got reconverted into a Destroyer and saw action until the end of the water, she survived until 1946.

 

All the Omaha-class weren't considered Obsolete until the end of the water.

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10 minutes ago, Submarine_Albacore said:

Actually Clemson got reconverted into a Destroyer and saw action until the end of the water, she survived until 1946.

 

All the Omaha-class weren't considered Obsolete until the end of the water.

So, what happened at the end of the water?

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Just now, TabbyHopkins said:

So, what happened at the end of the water?

Omaha disguised itself as Battlecruiser Kirov.

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1 minute ago, Submarine_Albacore said:

Omaha disguised itself as Battlecruiser Kirov.

Ah, of course.

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1 hour ago, Submarine_Albacore said:

Actually Clemson got reconverted into a Destroyer and saw action until the end of the water, she survived until 1946.

 

All the Omaha-class weren't considered Obsolete until the end of the water.

The Omahas were considered outdated (different from obsolete) in the 40s. That’s why they weren’t used as part of the main fleet they were sent to areas that needed the flag shown but where serious combat wasn’t expected 

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I know Wikipedia isn’t the best source but ya, the Omaha’s had secondary roles because they were outdated.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omaha-class_cruiser

they had a solid gun armament but their AAW armament was severely lacking even after their refit.

Edited by JohnPJones

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Just now, JohnPJones said:

I know Wikipedia isn’t the best source but ya, the Omaha’s had secondary roles because they were outdated.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omaha-class_cruiser

they had a solid gun armament but their AAW armament was severely lacking even after their refit.

Wiki is actually a decent source when used for general knowledge, and every now and then has some fun trivia about some things. (perfect example being USS Texas flooding her torpedo bulge after D-Day)

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4 minutes ago, TabbyHopkins said:

Wiki is actually a decent source when used for general knowledge, and every now and then has some fun trivia about some things. (perfect example being USS Texas flooding her torpedo bulge after D-Day)

Some things it is but I know the really stubborn people typically try to discredit any statement that cites Wikipedia so I prefer to just acknowledge that there are better sources, I just don’t care enough at the moment to find a better source lol

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1 hour ago, Submarine_Albacore said:

Actually Clemson got reconverted into a Destroyer and saw action until the end of the water, she survived until 1946.

 

All the Omaha-class weren't considered Obsolete until the end of the water.

Also I can’t find anything about the Clemson getting a significant refit to make her less out dated or the class as a whole getting a redesign.

i see a handful of Clemson class ships were built with the twin 4” guns and a few with 5” guns.

 

 

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A lot of the old USN four-stackers were converted into auxiliary roles like fast-transports. They proved useful enough even though they were outdated as destroyers.

Omahas were outdated but gave useful service escorting convoys and other secondary tasks.

 

Edited by Lampshade_M1A2

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I'd say the Clemson class of "four piper" destroyers.  They saw action in almost every theater of the war from beginning to end.  Many were converted to secondary roles, but that doesn't negate their presence.  For example, there were 12 present in the Asiatic Fleet in 1941 along with 2 more that were converted to seaplane tenders (AV).  The British got 50 that were used as escort ships in the Atlantic.  One, the Campbelltown was used to destroy the dry dock at St. Nazarie France to prevent it's use by the Bismarck should she escape the Royal Navy.  Others were used in Torch for landing commandos.  APD conversions were critical from the Guadalcanal campaign on.

The USS Ward fired the first shot of the war in the Pacific against Japan, sinking a Japanese midget sub.

They were anywhere and everywhere naval forces were.

The Omaha class cruisers were relegated to "safe" parts of the world where they were not going to be challenged significantly.  They were considered by the USN as marginal in capacity and completely undergunned in AA capacity.

First to last, the Clemson class would be hard to beat for the breathe of service they saw.

 

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