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Seamonette

Response to Flamu's "Discussion - WoWS: The Focus On Damage" youtube video. *A new player perspective*

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The video in question^^

He is right about positive reinforcement in-game and negative reinforcement of behavior by the game, I can't say that I disagree on anything he said. Also videos do help and I'm glad for them, I'm watching them as I go and I do learn a lot, but they aren't nearly as effective as mentoring and real-time positive constructive advice. Now, if the game won't offer the kind of positive reinforcement needed to change behaviors, the advice, etc, IT'S UP TO THE GOOD PLAYERS TO DO SO and take up the slack if they want better teamplay and better players.

Ranting might make WG act, or not... But itm and that's if anything eventually happens at all, nothing happens. Furthermore, a lot of the new players are eager to learn, those that don't, they'll either learn the hard way or not at all or even worse like he said, they'll learn from the bad examples. Worse still, the longer nothing is done, more new players will pick up more bad habits, most probably also including me.

So how about veterans teaching new players? Preferably the most talented ones? The so called "UNICUM".

I used to do that in NF2 where I was one of the best players in DDs/CLs/CAs, I really feared perhaps only 2 or 3 other players, and respected a bunch of others for their skills... so I did my part. When I saw a mistake, I'd give CONSTRUCTIVE POSITIVE ADVICE in REAL-TIME or shortly after the game/during endgame/when dead. When I saw a good move, I'd provide positive reinforcement too and even some constructive criticism if I knew of a way to do even better, any tips helped. I would also often offer to join up in a what in WoWs is called a division or even from time to time join our fleet ( clans in NF2 ) to offer training/mentoring and give them the opportunity to observe how I played and stick with me during games so as to try to follow in my footsteps and get a feel for it. And guess what? IT WORKED!

Now what USUALLY happens in WoWs when you make a mistake and/or the team is losing? THE EXACT OPPOSITE! SNOWFLAKE MELTDOWNS HAPPEN, crybabies on team chat. Either that or a snarky useless sarcastic comment that the new players can't possibly understand because they don't have the prereqs/base knowledge of the game mechanics to do so. HOW DOES THAT HELP? It doesn't... Quite the opposite! It's just confusing and probably pushes in the opposite direction the very players you would like to get better at the game/teamplay.

As a side note: I'm of the eager to learn type and if given the chance, I know I can get pretty good at this type of game. SO I'M UP FOR GRABS TO ANYONE WHO WISHES TO ACTIVELY TEACH A WILLING PUPIL. And know that what you teach me, I'll pass on to others.

Good luck, and rock those seas.

EDIT: I know I'm already in a clan, it's still relatively fresh, but, and I don't want to bad mouth them because they seem to be really good people, it wasn't what I expected according to the recruitment pitch and ensuing discussion. ;)

Edited by Seamonette

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Well there goes that clan's rep. :cap_cool:

Seriously tho... there have been discussions about a mentoring process/program in the past.. .but nothing i've seen recently. 

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Is this a plea to find a new clan? I'm not exactly sure what you are hoping for here.

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A community well known personalty takes on the issue, finally, and look results. Other community celebrities should take hint.

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^^^ When the student is ready, Senpai sbcpNitro will appear!

 

True Story!

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1 hour ago, Seamonette said:

The video in question^^

He is right about positive reinforcement in-game and negative reinforcement of behavior by the game, I can't say that I disagree on anything he said. Also videos do help and I'm glad for them, I'm watching them as I go and I do learn a lot, but they aren't nearly as effective as mentoring and real-time positive constructive advice. Now, if the game won't offer the kind of positive reinforcement needed to change behaviors, the advice, etc, IT'S UP TO THE GOOD PLAYERS TO DO SO and take up the slack if they want better teamplay and better players.

Ranting might make WG act, or not... But itm and that's if anything eventually happens at all, nothing happens. Furthermore, most of the new players are eager to learn, those that don't, they'll either learn the hard way or not at all or even worse like he said, they'll learn from the bad examples. Worse still, the longer nothing is done, more new players will pick up more bad habits, most probably also including me.

So how about veterans teaching new players? Preferably the most talented ones? The so called "UNICUM".

I used to do that in NF2 where I was one of the best players in DDs/CLs/CAs, I really feared perhaps only 2 or 3 other players, and respected a bunch of others for their skills... so I did my part. When I saw a mistake, I'd give CONSTRUCTIVE POSITIVE ADVICE in REAL-TIME or shortly after the game/during endgame/when dead. When I saw a good move, I'd provide positive reinforcement too and even some constructive criticism if I knew of a way to do even better, any tips helped. I would also often offer to join up in a what in WoWs is called a division or even join our fleet ( clans in NF2 ) to offer training/mentoring and give them the opportunity to observe how I played and stick with me during games so as to try to follow in my footsteps and get a feel for it. And guess what? IT WORKED!

Now what USUALLY happens in WoWs when you make a mistake and/or the team is losing? THE EXACT OPPOSITE! SNOWFLAKE MELTDOWNS HAPPEN, crybabies on team chat. Either that or a snarky useless sarcasm comment that the new players can't possibly understand because they don't have the prereqs/base knowledge of the game mechanics to do so. HOW DOES THAT HELP? It doesn't... Quite the opposite! It's just confusing and probably pushes in the opposite direction the very players you would like to get better at the game/teamplay.

As a side note: I'm of the eager to learn type and if given the chance, I know I can get pretty good at this type of game. SO I'M UP FOR GRABS TO ANYONE WHO WISHES TO ACTIVELY TEACH A WILLING PUPIL. And know that what you teach me, I'll pass on to others.

Good luck, and rock those seas.

EDIT: I know I'm already in a clan, it's still relatively fresh, but, and I don't want to bad mouth them because they seem to be really good people, it wasn't what I expected according to the recruitment pitch and ensuing discussion. ;)

When perhaps 1/10 people take constructive advice in game and try to improve themselves and don't just cuss you out for telling them how to play their ship or tell you "they play for fun", it feels like a pointless exercise trying to help people and sometimes venting your frustrations in chat feels better than trying to help when you know the likelihood of your advice being heeded is nil.

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i tell new players to stay at t3/4  until they can win 50% consistently.  if you can't do that, you need to work on basic shooting and dodging.    most are too eager to move up though.      what would be cool, is   to have a backseat  function available where a player can watch another player play as first person  like the team mate can, but all match .  you learn more by watching  good player play  esp if they can explain what they are doing and the thought process. 

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1 hour ago, sbcptnitro said:

Is this a plea to find a new clan? I'm not exactly sure what you are hoping for here.

Not really, it's more of a side note, but I'm certainly open to suggestions, it fits the topic and my current situation. If it were really solely a plea to find a new clan, I would've posted this in the correct section of the forums.

1 hour ago, BiggieD61 said:

^^^ When the student is ready, Senpai sbcpNitro will appear!

 

True Story!

LOL, "Master Senpai" has a nice ring to it! :)

36 minutes ago, centarina said:

i tell new players to stay at t3/4  until they can win 50% consistently.  if you can't do that, you need to work on basic shooting and dodging.    most are too eager to move up though.      what would be cool, is   to have a backseat  function available where a player can watch another player play as first person  like the team mate can, but all match .  you learn more by watching  good player play  esp if they can explain what they are doing and the thought process. 

I have a 55% win rate after 253 random battles and I avoided playing at higher than Tier 6 so far, choosing instead to try another line starting from scratch, get to know the ships from different nations, how they play, what I prefer, etc. Do you think I am ready to move on to more advanced stuff?

54 minutes ago, Ducky_shot said:

When perhaps 1/10 people take constructive advice in game and try to improve themselves and don't just cuss you out for telling them how to play their ship or tell you "they play for fun", it feels like a pointless exercise trying to help people and sometimes venting your frustrations in chat feels better than trying to help when you know the likelihood of your advice being heeded is nil.

Yes Ducky, very few people do take constructive criticism and apply it, nevertheless, that never stopped me from giving it in NF2. For me it's either that, or apathy and I don't like falling into apathy.

Edited by Seamonette

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I do recommend players to try multiple line to t5 , as well as types.  its just good thing to get ideas on how ships behave and what the tactics are.     T5 is first  test and if you don't feel lost, you should be pretty good to t7.    The new features at t7 are basically   few radar and  better conceal anyway.        at t8+,  everything becomes more deadly and meta is much  more positional if you want success.      if you are decent at 7,  it won't take long to adjust to t8, but you may not like  how deadly it is. 

don't be in a hurry to get to 10.   T7 is really a sweet spot for  most player and  I would linger there with several line and just find the one you really like to grind higher. 

 

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basic:

Look at the map.. look for area where you can have a lot of gun coverage of the map but where you can move to cover if needed..

Decide where you want to go and go there with dispatch.. you may be wrong but moving out decisively early with a bad plan beats acting late with a good plan just about every time.  This isn't tanks.. ships react slow!

If your drive behind cover to avoid damage odds are pretty good you won't be able to cause damage either.

Slow is fast.  At  3/4 and half speed yout turning radius is substantially smaller.  You don't turn faster per say, but it takes a lot less sea room to get turned about..  When you see the DD the torps are all ready half way to you. Turn into them and slow down.  it gives you more time to react even if it's only seconds.   they'll be coming from a point behind the speeding DD.. from where they fired them.

If there is a carrier and your AA stinks, move with a ship who's AA is better..  Dont sail beside each other, get in front or be behind.  This neatly avoids the torps that miss them hitting you. 

SHOOT the DD.  No good ever comes from a DD.  If they're sunk they're not feeding you any more fish.

Shoot the cruisers next ... Unless you enjoy having a BBQ party on deck.

Move that BB up to where you can hit the targets your shooting at reliably... then slow down!

the side that can get their BB's closest to the contested caps tend to be the team that wins.

When you and your mates don't know what to shoot at, shoot the closest target!

 

After you master or discover what of the above doesn't work for you then start getting inventive!

This games is in a fairly constant state of change and evolution.  Tactics change constantly as do build focus's.  Don't get locked into one way of doing things.. all you do is keep repeating the same errors because you know it worked once really well.

The object is to win.  Taking caps, sinking ships, causing damage are the means, not the objective.

Control your self, control your ship, control the battle.   

Tis a far far better thing to act then to be constantly re-acting.   Again, control.

in open water maneuver, in closed waters FIGHT!.

running away requires a turn. a turn shows your broad side.  That'll be a paddl'n.. avoid the paddl'n. stand fast  or back up, and hand out some paddl'n of your own!

Your ship is coin to be spent.  Spend it well!

 

Edited by TL_Warlord_Roff

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3 hours ago, centarina said:

i tell new players to stay at t3/4  until they can win 50% consistently.  if you can't do that, you need to work on basic shooting and dodging.    most are too eager to move up though.      what would be cool, is   to have a backseat  function available where a player can watch another player play as first person  like the team mate can, but all match .  you learn more by watching  good player play  esp if they can explain what they are doing and the thought process. 

I would love to be able to observe another player as first person/replay view.

Sometimes just to confirm my suspicions too...:Smile_Default:

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