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JackBinary

I'm tired of the current state of carriers

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Up front: I'm a destroyer main. an IJN destroyer main. Thus I come from the bias of a line that can't do anything about carriers attacking him. I have a lot of salt for one of my hard counters, and I'm not gonna pretend I don't, but I will keep this factual.

The current state of carriers is, essentially, that the team with the best carrier wins in 9/10 scenarios. These single ships play an entirely different game to the rest of us, while enjoying a level of control over a match unseen by even the most overpowered of ships. This isn't healthy.
Last year was supposed to be the year of the carrier, but all we got was a few load out changes that didn't really affect anything substantial.

Here are my issues, with carriers in general, and with a lot of discussion I see about carriers:

1. The cross drop.
Playing as a destroyer player, and transitioning to add cruisers to my roster as well, I've found ship based torpedoes incredibly easy to dodge, and incredibly hard to hit. often, you only have to react to them, rather than anticipate them. When on the receiving end of a carrier, however, You can anticipate and dip and dive and weave as much as you like, you're eating torpedoes. This is because the carrier can constantly adjust the angle of attack right up until the torps themselves are launched, and they can be launched from multiple directions, giving you no escape options.

2. They can attack with near impunity.
Destroyers can often launch torpedoes from stealth, but there are many hard counters to this. Radar, Hydro, Airplanes. CVs can hide in the back of the map, well behind their team, risking only their planes to launch an attack against a ship. Sure, they have a large detection radius, but that's easily solved by hiding behind an island. it's not like they have to move to attack.

2a. They're asking for MORE impunity?
A common theme I see is carriers crying out for unlimited planes. Right, zero risk for making an attack. sounds great, thanks!

3. AA is a mess.
AA is, first and foremost, heavily RNG dependent. Carrier players don't like this any more than we do. it creates a feeling of helplessness on both ends. Carriers have no counters to AA, other than trying to sink the AA ship before it's AA eats up the planes. Ships with low AA values have no counters to carriers, other than trying to hunt it out early and bombard it (and that's the best of ideas!) or hope it doesn't notice you.

4. Balance is a mess.
This game has serious balance issues in general, but I've never seen it worse than on carriers. When there's only two per tier, they better be perfectly balanced. Anything else is basically fixing matches before they begin. USN carriers have a hard time keeping up with IJN at high tiers, while IJN have a hard time keeping pace with USN at low tiers. This really is an issue.

 

Now that that's out of the way, perhaps we can discuss solutions to the issue.
Again, I have next to no carrier experience, rather I am coming from the perspective of a destroyer player.

One solution could be to lower their influence. Scale back the strength while increasing the number per team. The problem is this would require a larger carrier population. Like I said earlier, playing carrier is like playing an entirely different game to playing other ships. Carrier population is just something we don't have.

Another solution is spread out the utility. For example, currently, all planes can spot torpedoes. What if only spotter planes could spot torps? Give the carrier a squad of spotter planes, which can't attack, but are much harder to shoot down as well. The benefit would be less overwhelming power against individual ships. The drawback is that this would further raise the skill floor and ceiling, making the divide between carriers worse.

A third solution is to take a queue from artillery in world of tanks. Give them their unlimited planes, at the cost of vastly reduced striking power. Smaller squads, less damage, but more sustainability.

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  1. This is how you not get hit by a "chasing cross-drop". Stop moving.
  2. If a CV does not move, he will waste more time traveling and rearming. A good CV would get as close as possible to shorten those time.
    1. I have never seen anyone ask for infinite Bombers and Fighters
  3. The counter to Bombers is to stay with the fleet as much you can, you travel alone, I guarantee you I will cause you a lot of damage
  4. You have not seen bad balancing
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9/10 is an exaggeration even if the CV brings two AA specced ships with them. 6/10, 7/10 is certainly attainable.

As far as the cross drop goes, yes it's tough to dodge, but when you give up half/a third of your potential damage to do it, there are going to be some benefits. Especially for a ship type that has far and away the slowest rate of attack in game.

The only CVs that can even come close to attacking with impunity are Hak and Midway, but as an ijn DD main, ya, YOU are going to be attackable with virtual impunity, because like you said, CVs are a hard counter.

I can understand CVs who want unlimited planes, because so many of the recent ship lines have had strong AA capabilities. So if the solution to balancing CVs alpha strikes is everyone can shoot down a bunch of planes, then CVs need to be rebalanced for a game where a lot of planes are shot down.

I agree that AA and balance are a huge mess though.

I think one step in the right direction is to have toggleable AA affects, that you choose similar to a wide or narrow torpedo spread.

Mode one's goal is to induce panic in the bombers. The more AA the bombers are in that induces panic, the wider the drop.

Mode 2's goal is to shoot down planes. Its ability to shoot down planes ramps up over time, with the strength of the AA influencing the rate at which it ramps up. Meaning if a CV is permaspotting a DD, that DD's AA is going to ramp up to the point of being a real problem for the squadron.

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- I have no problem with cross dropping or CVs being hard counters to DDs

- but the game needs to change such that there is a hard counter to CVs as well since today there is none given that the team with the better CV has a much greater chance of winning since the weaker CV usually doesn't help that much

- if there is a unicom player in any class of ship besides a CV the opposing team can handle that ship/captain in other ways.  But if a unicom player is in a CV, unless the opposing CV (who is guaranteed to be in the match) is also a unicom player, there is no real counter to that unicom CV captain.  It's the biggest imbalance in the game by far imo.

 

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10 minutes ago, Merc85 said:

- but the game needs to change such that there is a hard counter to CVs as well since today there is none given that the team with the better CV has a much greater chance of winning since the weaker CV usually doesn't help that much

how about all of the USN tier VIII-X ships the RN cruisers the KM cruisers and battleships the french and the high tier russian cruisers as counters to CVs considering most of them are no fly zones

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29 minutes ago, Vangm94 said:
  1. This is how you not get hit by a "chasing cross-drop". Stop moving.
  2. If a CV does not move, he will waste more time traveling and rearming. A good CV would get as close as possible to shorten those time.
    1. I have never seen anyone ask for infinite Bombers and Fighters
  3. The counter to Bombers is to stay with the fleet as much you can, you travel alone, I guarantee you I will cause you a lot of damage
  4. You have not seen bad balancing

Then you haven't been paying attention, because I have seen carrier players ask for unlimited planes.

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1 minute ago, skull_122_steel said:

how about all of the USN tier VIII-X ships the RN cruisers the KM cruisers and battleships the french and the high tier russian cruisers as counters to CVs considering most of them are no fly zones

Honestly, it shouldn't be specific ships. AA should be something all ships can do, such that you don't have to rely on teammates who can't find their own butt in the dark without a flashlight and a map

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you allways have to enjoy it when people post about CV and yet never play them

3. a good CV player knows how to work around a ship with good AA if not great AA, you wait till your team destroy some off there AA guns before you go in for the drop, the counter to low AA there is 2 ways the 1st did that person pick not to spec there ship for AA if so that was there choice not the CV and the other is teamwork the one word no one really likes to use.

4. thats not true a US CV can keep up with a IJN CV if not better it all comes down to player, loadout they pick and your team

2. like a saying i got told once while learning to play CV "a still CV is a dead CV", higher tiers you have to move with the fleet maybe not as close as people think but close enough to cut flight times down

2.1 the only time ive seen that is people who dont play CV try to make a post about fixing the CV problem and only in a few post because it will never work.

1. theres only one line the IJN that can do that and some premiums until you hit tier 9+ in the US line and it comes down to watching the mini map, teamwork and knowing how CV work.

 

people are allways trying to find a way to fix CV or change how much damage they can do, but they never step back and look at what ships can do to counter CV, how many BB spec the ship for AA over dmg, how many players will come to the aid off a ship that's being spotted/hammered by a CV and use there DEFAA or AA spec ship to help them out even if it means taking a bit off dmg or not being able to use DEFAA while on cooldown, how many DD fall back to safety of teammates with good AA to fend off the cross drop then push the cap as a group.

if your in a tier 6 match and theres a Cleveland in it a tier 6 CV wont go near it to start with so work as a team to push a cap, like Vangm94 said if your on your own a CV will go for you have a Cleveland next to you the CV wont go near you and pick another target.

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Just now, JackBinary said:

Honestly, it shouldn't be specific ships. AA should be something all ships can do, such that you don't have to rely on teammates who can't find their own butt in the dark without a flashlight and a map

and all ships besides a few have AA so what if you as a IJN DD can't shoot down planes as well as the USN DDs. If all ships where no fly zones the how would CVs do anything. And if I remember correctly the Shima has dual purpose armament so you can spec into AA if you wanted to 

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2 minutes ago, ausanimal said:

like Vangm94 said if your on your own a CV will go for you have a Cleveland next to you the CV wont go near you and pick another target.

Sounds great, I'll remember to drag my USN cruiser along with me to the front, cause I'm sure as hell not allowed to hang back with the rest of the team, according to my team.

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32 minutes ago, Vangm94 said:
  1.  
  2. The counter to Bombers is to stay with the fleet as much you can, you travel alone, I guarantee you I will cause you a lot of damage

Rely on you team is not a good option to save your ship, Just because they are not reliable. 

 

Not all ships have good AA and even If the ship has good AA, not all spec into AA. Also, many players dont play attention to what is happening around them. They dont even target planes or use DF (assuming they have DF and not hydro).

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4 minutes ago, ausanimal said:

 

if your in a tier 6 match and theres a Cleveland in it a tier 6 CV wont go near it to start with so work as a team to push a cap, like Vangm94 said if your on your own a CV will go for you have a Cleveland next to you the CV wont go near you and pick another target.

The problem with this argument is that a BB or DD doesn't want to be limited in where it can go based on the whims of the Cleveland player.  Sure, it's great when a good AA cruiser will tag along with the BBs, but more often than not these days, this seems like a  very rare thing.  It seems that most AA cruiser players want to go off and do their own thing.  So, about the best a BB player can do is try to team up with other BBs, particularly at least one with great AA, since the chances may be better that the BBs might choose to stick together.

As for DDs, yes, it's not wise to go off on your own in a DD in a CV game, but if you're in an IJN DD this seriously limits your offensive ability.  Why?  Torpedo boats are more effective when they can try to move to flanking positions on their potential targets.  Staying semi near your heavies limits your ability to seek out good torping opportunities and often causes you to end up shooting at enemies that are showing too much bow or stern for the spreads to be truly effective.  This isn't as big a problem for other DDs who aren't fully dedicated to torping and may care as much about spotting, capping, and counter-DD work.  When I'm in one of those in a CV game, I won't stay completely under my team's AA umbrella, but I do stay close enough that if I see an inbound strike, I can run back to the AA umbrella for safety.

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2 minutes ago, JackBinary said:

Sounds great, I'll remember to drag my USN cruiser along with me to the front, cause I'm sure as hell not allowed to hang back with the rest of the team, according to my team.

the amount off times ive had to hold back a TB/DB atk because there was a ship with great AA like the cleveland in the group and i know it will eat my planes up before i get a strike off so it dos work, it a choice the team has to make when it comes to that and im sure im not the only CV thats had to change there target cause off a AA ship

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>  IJN destroyer main complain about something how effect counter him. riiigh, go play with some usn/ru DDs, they have a st**id AA power now with consumable.

 

1. best thing in that game for carriers be able to do dmg.

2. "impunity" is relative, lost the ship is whatever (and only have 1/team), but lose the planes is a huge impact in your game, if you lose a wave you lose at least 2min without be able to do nothing.

2. atack one ijn ship the risk is low, but atack usn/uk/french/some german ships, etc... the risk is high.

3. agreed, AA dependent fro rng is terrible, for carriers and for surface ships.

4. they never going balance that util the carriers have different loadouts (by number of planes and groups)

 

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9 minutes ago, GuntherPrein said:

Take away vision provided to team by CV most of problem is solved

Much as I don't really like CVs, I don't think that this is a good idea.  Part of a CV's job in this game and IRL was scouting out the enemy.  Well, actually that's not 100% true.  For some reason, IJN CV doctrine didn't include scouting as part of their role.  Scouting was usually left up to the float planes from cruisers, IIRC.  But that's another story.

If I had my druthers, I'd like to see all planes no longer being able to spot torpedoes.  Planes fly too high to spot torps, unless they're in the process of taking off or landing.  The only thing they should be able to spot are ships.

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16 minutes ago, JackBinary said:

Honestly, it shouldn't be specific ships. AA should be something all ships can do, such that you don't have to rely on teammates who can't find their own butt in the dark without a flashlight and a map

"i need have everthing~" lets give to all ships radar, smoke, hydro, repair party, nuclear bombs, etc.

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6 minutes ago, Crucis said:

As for DDs, yes, it's not wise to go off on your own in a DD in a CV game, but if you're in an IJN DD this seriously limits your offensive ability

this also falls onto the CV to, if im able to ill try and chase there fighters away or take them out so my DD is free to do what it's meant to do but sometimes CV are busy and cant so DD have to look at other options to counter it and not just blame CV because they got a cross drop off on you

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Ah, an IJN DD main throwing salt at something because it can actually effectively kill him in the few games they encounter each other. Yeah, I don't really feel bad.

IJN DD have very few counters at mid-tier (sub-VIII, as tier VIII and up have radar). They usually do whatever they want while only really having to watch out for USN DD and some CL, though they get relentlessly focussed anytime they engage, so the IJN DD gets away to stealth torp some more helpless ships.

You get no sympathy from me. A CV is able to effectively and somewhat consistently kill something that is a massive threat to the whole team? Seems like it's working just as intended. CV needs a bit of a re-work, yes. But, not to the likes of a IJN DD main.

In case it isn't already clear, I do not like IJN DD's very much. I do not feel bad if they are having a hard time. Too bad, so sad. Now you know how it feels to be attacked by a counter that is very difficult to avoid(like a tier V/VI BB against an invisible IJN DD it has no hopes of ever finding or killing). Congradulations! Consider yourself balanced.

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15 minutes ago, GuntherPrein said:

Take away vision provided to team by CV most of problem is solved

I kind agreed with that, can be one interessing change put the fights only spot ships for the cv player. That can be more comunicated from cv give positions (maybe by signals or comunication?) to team engage in a fight... its an interessing propose.

But then i remember thats its going make a cv more dependend from team do something, so, hell no! :P

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2 minutes ago, HyenaHiena said:

Honestly, it shouldn't be specific ships. AA should be something all ships can do, such that you don't have to rely on teammates who can't find their own butt in the dark without a flashlight and a map

if thats the case then CV shouldn't need to change apart from making it more balanced between CV i.e loadout options

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4 minutes ago, ausanimal said:

this also falls onto the CV to, if im able to ill try and chase there fighters away or take them out so my DD is free to do what it's meant to do but sometimes CV are busy and cant so DD have to look at other options to counter it and not just blame CV because they got a cross drop off on you

I don't bother blaming the friendly CV.  I know that they have limited resources.

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11 minutes ago, Crucis said:

The problem with this argument is that a BB or DD doesn't want to be limited in where it can go based on the whims of the Cleveland player.  Sure, it's great when a good AA cruiser will tag along with the BBs, but more often than not these days, this seems like a  very rare thing. 

The biggest problem is this game still dont give you good rewards to play as a "suport" ship (aa cover, spot, give smoke, etc).

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Just now, HyenaHiena said:

The biggest problem is this game still dont give you good rewards to play as a "suport" ship (aa cover, spot, give smoke, etc).

thats something i agree on as a CV player, when your up tiered in a match i.e lex in a tier 10 match theres not a lot you can do to start with but spot try for a atk and your just feeding your planes to someone, thats one area WG needs to look at and maybe change then people might be more inclined to work as a team. 

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