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Crucis

7.3 Map Tweaks

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Has anyone here checked out the new map tweaks on Sleep Giant, Land of Fire, and Hotspot for update 7.3?

https://worldofwarships.com/en/news/common/update-073/

These changes are quite interesting, IMO.  Seems like the devs are trying to tweak some of the Domination maps so that every single Domination map isn't just a straight line of caps across the middle of the map.  Also, in all 3 cases here, the cap that was removed was the one directly in the middle of the map, leaving the two outside caps (though the location of the "A" cap on LoF was moved a little closer to the center of the map).  And each team now has a cap of their "own" near their spawn, similar to Domination mode on Two Brothers and Haven.

First of all, I was more than a little surprised to see this tweak on the very new Sleeping Giant map, just because it's so new.  That's not to say that it's not a potentially good change.  Just surprised to see such a new map get a change so soon.

Secondly, I think that I like these tweaks conceptually, if for no other reason than map variety.  Not having every Dom mode map be a line of caps across the middle.  Also, the layout is similar to the Two Brothers and Haven maps with the all the caps laid out in a diamond shape, with room in the middle for maneuvering.

Also, the notes mention that the Hotspot standard mode map will move the bases closer to the center of each team's spawn, rather than be skewed to each side.  Not sure of the reasoning behind this.  And I'm not sure if this is a good thing or not.  Let's just say that I don't see what the advantages of this might be, though they may exist.  They just don't seem as obvious as the advantages of the domination mode tweaks I mention above.

 

Anyways, just thought that I'd write up a post on this, and see what people thought.

 

 

 

 

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I like them moving spawn closer, i think it would be cool of teams would be within sight if each other at spawn. No more 5 min afk mode in top tier matches and afk would be punished lol.

as for the caps, sure, why not

Edited by monpetitloup

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One thought that just occurred to me while reading your post is that on the maps where they added team owned caps, they may be trying to reduce the number of games that end all too quickly from a team going to zero points.  This generally happens when a team doesn't grab any caps at the start and loses a handful of ships right away.  So by giving each team a cap at start, it becomes easier to offset this kind of start of game setback.

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A base to defend and a battle field to conquer, I like it. Those that continually hang back will now have something to do.

I just wish they would come out with some new maps.

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and as points will amass more quickly games will be shorter!

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In the three maps they are changing the center cap was a trap that was almost impossible to cap early if either team had radar or CV fighter coverage.  Bad DD players went to those caps to die in the first two minutes of a match, handicapping their team from the get go.  All three maps are improved in my opinion by the addition of two spawn caps that allow teams to earn points from the starting bell as pointed out by @DreadRaybo

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We definitely want your feedback on these changes so please let us know how the maps play out after the update. 

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4 minutes ago, BiggieD61 said:

In the three maps they are changing the center cap was a trap that was almost impossible to cap early if either team had radar or CV fighter coverage.  Bad DD players went to those caps to die in the first two minutes of a match, handicapping their team from the get go.  All three maps are improved in my opinion by the addition of two spawn caps that allow teams to earn points from the starting bell as pointed out by @DreadRaybo

I like these changes.

We'll see how they play out.

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9 minutes ago, DreadRaybo said:

One thought that just occurred to me while reading your post is that on the maps where they added team owned caps, they may be trying to reduce the number of games that end all too quickly from a team going to zero points.  This generally happens when a team doesn't grab any caps at the start and loses a handful of ships right away.  So by giving each team a cap at start, it becomes easier to offset this kind of start of game setback.

This is a very fair point, Raybo.  I hadn't considered this.  And it sounds like a good idea, whether intentional or not.

 

 

8 minutes ago, verkhne said:

and as points will amass more quickly games will be shorter!

Not necessarily, if you've read Raybo's post above.  It could actually go in the other direction by reducing the number of games where a team goes below 0 points so quickly.

 

 

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16 minutes ago, monpetitloup said:

I like them moving spawn closer, i think it would be cool of teams would be within sight if each other at spawn. No more 5 min afk mode in top tier matches and afk would be punished lol.

as for the caps, sure, why not

AFK is a thing out of control of many players for this reason alone I would Down vote your LOL

hKu7PoW.jpg

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Quote

On the Sleeping Giant, Land of Fire and Hotspot maps there are now four capture points, two of which will be under control of the teams at the beginning of a battle. However, players may encounter versions of the maps with their previous three-point layout.  In the new layout, every capture point provides 4 points for every 9 seconds when it is held by any of the teams. Each team will have a starting pool of 200 points. Similar changes were introduced on the Northern Lights map with 4 key areas, 2 of which initially under control of the teams. 

I just reread the post with this info and just noticed the following highlighted (by me) sentence.

IMO, this is a GREAT thing!!!  Having two different versions of Domination mode on maps is, IMO, absolutely outstanding!!!  As a general concept, this is something that I've been suggesting for a long time.  I'd love to see similar things done on all maps, so that when you play on any particular map, it's not a given that the domination mode layout will always be exactly the same.

@Radar_X  And about feedback and on this point, IIRC, there is a different Domination mode layout for the Haven map that can be accessed in the Training room, last I recall.  I'd absolutely LOVE to see this other layout added to the rotation, for no other reason than the additional variety!  When there are so few maps, the best way to create more map variety is to use different variations of those maps' cap and spawn layouts in the various battle modes.

 

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22 minutes ago, monpetitloup said:

I like them moving spawn closer, i think it would be cool of teams would be within sight if each other at spawn. No more 5 min afk mode in top tier matches and afk would be punished lol.

as for the caps, sure, why not

those five minutes allow time for late loaders and wrong side spawners to reposition accordingly. If you loaded in with the enemy team fully visible, it would totally ruin the game in all aspects as battleships would almost be 100% capable of instant deleting CVs and CLs without recourse. positioning, and manipulating takes time; these are components of game play: rts/FPS.

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10 minutes ago, Crokodone said:

those five minutes allow time for late loaders and wrong side spawners to reposition accordingly. If you loaded in with the enemy team fully visible, it would totally ruin the game in all aspects as battleships would almost be 100% capable of instant deleting CVs and CLs without recourse. positioning, and manipulating takes time; these are components of game play: rts/FPS.

I 100% agree, Crokodone.  It's silly that the two teams should  spawn anywhere near that close to each other.  People make too much of AFKs.  Perhaps because they've never had a situation where they had no choice but to go afk, whether by "choice"* (having to deal with a family emergency, having to answer the phone or doorbell, etc.) or circumstance (your computer got DC'd, you lose power, etc.).

* By "choice", I mean situations where real life simply has to take precedence.  Not "choice" as in, bleep it, I don't feel like playing or I don't like the MM and decide to walk away.

 

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40 minutes ago, DreadRaybo said:

One thought that just occurred to me while reading your post is that on the maps where they added team owned caps, they may be trying to reduce the number of games that end all too quickly from a team going to zero points.  This generally happens when a team doesn't grab any caps at the start and loses a handful of ships right away.  So by giving each team a cap at start, it becomes easier to offset this kind of start of game setback.

Yes i see what you mean. a line of three caps all being taken by the reds whike your own green team is still in the deployment zone trying to get underway to the nearest island...

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34 minutes ago, Crucis said:

I 100% agree, Crokodone.  It's silly that the two teams should  spawn anywhere near that close to each other.  People make too much of AFKs.  Perhaps because they've never had a situation where they had no choice but to go afk, whether by "choice"* (having to deal with a family emergency, having to answer the phone or doorbell, etc.) or circumstance (your computer got DC'd, you lose power, etc.).

* By "choice", I mean situations where real life simply has to take precedence.  Not "choice" as in, bleep it, I don't feel like playing or I don't like the MM and decide to walk away.

 

Ill take it a step beyond that. That period of undetectablity allows for planning, but also your first team moves to be concealed. But also a minute or two for afk is really fair. Especially since i have real questions about what truly causes late log ins.

This suspenseful period is some of the best part to me. Will it be a low tier cruiser and a dd, or is the whole team gonna rush the cap I'm taking/supporting.

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53 minutes ago, c3shooter said:

Ill take it a step beyond that. That period of undetectablity allows for planning, but also your first team moves to be concealed. But also a minute or two for afk is really fair. Especially since i have real questions about what truly causes late log ins.

This suspenseful period is some of the best part to me. Will it be a low tier cruiser and a dd, or is the whole team gonna rush the cap I'm taking/supporting.

This is a problem I have with the Big Race map, in tier 5 cruisers when they get spawned up in the NE.  You're almost instantly in gun range of the enemy (and perhaps already are for certain T5 cruisers with longer gun ranges), and the only thing one side needs is to spot the other team's cruisers in their spawn locations.  And heaven help if you're AFK for even a short time.  If I catch an afk in that position on Big Race, I'll spam HE at them until I start a fire and then deal with more immediate threats. (I have a fondness for putting AFK's on fire and letting them burn.)

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I hope these changes got rid of the ridiculous solo battleship spawn spot on Land of Fire.

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These look like good changes, especially since the new maps for high tier matches have been so awful.

But what we really need is new maps. @Radar_X, you guys have maps for the operations that would excellent and eccentric: Narai, Killer Whale, and especially Raptor. They would be easy to adapt for use in Randoms.

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2 hours ago, monpetitloup said:

I like them moving spawn closer, i think it would be cool of teams would be within sight if each other at spawn. No more 5 min afk mode in top tier matches and afk would be punished lol.

But sometimes that AFK eventually wakes up/finally loads in and joins the battle. Probably best not to give the reds an easy early kill or let them know they have a numbers advantage early on.

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2 hours ago, Radar_X said:

We definitely want your feedback on these changes so please let us know how the maps play out after the update. 

Radar,

I don't believe this is a good change for Sleeping Giant. Here's why:

  1. With the 3 cap points in a row, If you have an aggressive successful push by the 2 ships that spawn on the west side to take A at the start of the match, you will control both the A and B cap points and you can easily prevent the opponent from pushing West from C to try to take B. The bad thing is the match is usually decided in the first 4 minutes and the rest is just mop up. It becomes slightly less clear with a good CV player, but without one, taking A early usually wins the match. With the removal of the center B cap, there is less incentive to take A when C is an much easier cap to take. 
  2. The medium sized island to the north of the C cap allows the North spawn to fire into the C cap from cover. This makes North side the favored side now where before the south side was very slightly favored because the large island on the south of the A point allowed slightly better firing angles to the entrances to A and the barrier island between the center and the spawn was slightly smaller allowing quicker ingress at the start of the match. 
  3. If WG wants to keep the ABCD diamond configuration for domination, then I would suggest splitting the barrier islands to the North and South of A similar to what they did with the large islands around B in Trap. While that would change the design intent of A, it would make both A and C equally viable in a diamond domination game. 

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I absolutely don't like any of the changes which move caps into each team's spawn.  There were two done last patch, IIRC.

The reason is simple:

These caps are almost never contested, and the times they are, they're effectively pointless as the game is already long lost or won.

So, you're removing caps for me, a DD, to contend, and again, there goes a large portion of my XP.  Standard battle mode is bad enough, but at least there appears to be some compensation in upping XP from other activities. Now, I'm faced with a Domination mode where even less of what I do gives me reward.  So this is a direct nerf to DDs. Again.

Secondly, these in-spawn caps effectively do nothing but provide a guaranteed constant stream of victory points to each side. Which means that it's far harder to roll an opponent team by killing quickly.

I don't see that as a Good Thing. Prolonging a match that's already 8v4 seems like nothing worthwhile at all. Moreover, it significantly increases the incentives for a losing team to go passive - they're getting a constant stream of points that is extraordinarily hard to take away, so why take chances? 

 

Having "safe" capture points is bad for the game. A better solution here would be to increase the number of cap points significantly, and scatter them around the middle section of the map, not necessarily in a line.  Maybe something like 6, each just big enough to fit a GFK in. 

 


 

The change to Land of Fire is particularly obnoxious. The left hand cap now is completely exposed, with not much nearby cover at all, but a WHOLE lot of mid-distance cover.

Almost like it's specifically designed to have radar cruisers camp behind those islands, and screw over any DD trying to cap.  Yeah. That's what we need. Good job.  /sarcasm

 

Gee, these changes to all three maps don't favor more BB sniping and camping, and radar camping. Not one little bit.  Nope. Nothing to see here. Keep moving.....

Jeeze, guys, could you try a bit harder to not break the game?

Edited by EAnybody

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As a couple have already pointed out, the center flags that were removed were deathtraps to begin with. Although that didn't stop people from calling out that objective at the start, no sane person would ever enter those caps early on. Better to move them somewhere more useful.

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The Tears change is VERY good for CB, countless times I got caught by those islands.

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19 hours ago, FleetAdmiral_Assassin said:

As a couple have already pointed out, the center flags that were removed were deathtraps to begin with. Although that didn't stop people from calling out that objective at the start, no sane person would ever enter those caps early on. Better to move them somewhere more useful.

They might have been bad in their prior position, but they're worse in the new positions. At least in the old versions a smart team would delay capping them until appropriate. You know, actual <gasp> teamwork and tactics. In the new places, we've got all the problems that I just outlined above.

This is replacing bad with worse. That's not an improvement.

Edited by EAnybody

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19 hours ago, EAnybody said:

I absolutely don't like any of the changes which move caps into each team's spawn.  There were two done last patch, IIRC.

The reason is simple:

These caps are almost never contested, and the times they are, they're effectively pointless as the game is already long lost or won.

So, you're removing caps for me, a DD, to contend, and again, there goes a large portion of my XP.  Standard battle mode is bad enough, but at least there appears to be some compensation in upping XP from other activities. Now, I'm faced with a Domination mode where even less of what I do gives me reward.  So this is a direct nerf to DDs. Again.

Secondly, these in-spawn caps effectively do nothing but provide a guaranteed constant stream of victory points to each side. Which means that it's far harder to roll an opponent team by killing quickly.

I don't see that as a Good Thing. Prolonging a match that's already 8v4 seems like nothing worthwhile at all. Moreover, it significantly increases the incentives for a losing team to go passive - they're getting a constant stream of points that is extraordinarily hard to take away, so why take chances? 

 

Having "safe" capture points is bad for the game. A better solution here would be to increase the number of cap points significantly, and scatter them around the middle section of the map, not necessarily in a line.  Maybe something like 6, each just big enough to fit a GFK in. 

 


 

The change to Land of Fire is particularly obnoxious. The left hand cap now is completely exposed, with not much nearby cover at all, but a WHOLE lot of mid-distance cover.

Almost like it's specifically designed to have radar cruisers camp behind those islands, and screw over any DD trying to cap.  Yeah. That's what we need. Good job.  /sarcasm

 

Gee, these changes to all three maps don't favor more BB sniping and camping, and radar camping. Not one little bit.  Nope. Nothing to see here. Keep moving.....

Jeeze, guys, could you try a bit harder to not break the game?

I disagree, EA.  I think that the changes are good.  BTW, also note that apparently the old versions of Domination on these maps haven't gone away.  These new versions are just second versions, not replacement versions.

As for the near spawn caps being uncontested, I suggest you consider the similar caps on Two Brothers.  Those near-spawn caps get contested all the time, later in battles.  And the "already controlled" caps on the new Northern Lights map also get contested just about every battle (though this isn't a diamond pattern cap layout).

As for adding MORE caps, I disagree.  To me, the big problem with a map like North is that nearly every gap between the islands to get from N to S (or visa-versa) is covered by a cap.  There's no way to flank the enemy without going through a cap circle (except to go to the extreme west side of the map beyond the A cap).  I prefer that the maps be more open of cap circles so that movement is more free flowing and not restricted by caps that can act as "motion sensors" for anyone trying to pass through them (unless you already control said cap).

As for your point about initial caps providing a stream of points that makes it difficult to roll teams more quickly... You think that that's a BAD thing?  Are you freakin' NUTS??? :Smile_facepalm:    That's exactly why it is a GOOD thing!!!

As for your point about caps, DDs, and XP, do you ever have any problem getting caps and XP on Two Brothers?  I don't.  So there should be no problem in these maps either.  I've had battles on two brothers where I've taken 2, 3, and occasionally 4 caps.  Doesn't sound like a problem there to me.

 

 

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