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Uncle_Lou

Scharnhorst - better with dedicated captain?

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Just a random thought I guess... I haven't played my Scharn in a bit; I generally rotate my German BB captain through the tree ship, Tirpitz, and occasionally Scharnhorst.  Just got to thinking lately that while Scharn shares some characteristics with the tree ships, it seems like there are some differences as well that may be better exploited by using a dedicated captain tailored specifically to Scharnhorst.  I may even have a spare captain laying around that I can work up and experiment with... Hmm...

Thoughts? 

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I've always used her up-close-and-personal which makes her an excellent fit for my silly secondary specialized captain.  In close, the mains are plenty accurate on their own and as long as you pick your fights wisely I've had lots of success in the anti-cruiser/DD role. 

If a BB happens to wander in, the 11" will do fine with high belt line or superstructure/bow/stern shots on Tier IXs and the secondaries always make a lovely mess of things inside of 7km.  Inside of 6km, the torpedoes are surprisingly punchy and getting three good hits on most battleships is a realistic goal.

One thing I just detest is watching someone keep their Shinyhorse back at 18km and snipe away.  Especially in this ship you're only able to employ 1/3 of her weaponry, and inaccurately at that.  The player usually ends up netting very low point totals and making meaningless contributions to the w/l.  Fortunately it's not all that common and for the most part folks seem to do very well with her.

-R

Edited by Mister_Rawr
True Fact #2394: Scharnhorst's nickname is derived from the equestrian-based petroleum distillate that was used to power her.
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Scharn really performs well with a survival focused captain. Preventative maint, jack of all trades, adrenaline rush, superintendent and concealment are a must. Then you can spec into fire prevention and BFT of survival expert with AFT. I've seen some captains run survival with torpedo detection also. Point is there are better builds on it than full AAA/secondary build that a Bismark captain would have and better builds for it that you might find from a KMS CL captain. I found that a hybrid build works best so long as the main focus is survival. Scharn is one of those boats that gets stronger and stronger later and later in the match.

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2 minutes ago, Mister_Rawr said:

One thing I just detest is watching someone hold their Shinyhorse back at 18km and sniping away.  Especially in this ship you're only able to employ 1/3 of her weaponry, netting very low point totals and making meaningless contributions to the w/l.  Fortunately it't not all that common and for the most part folks seem to do very well with her.

Agreed. Don't do this.

Note: The survival build with torpedo detection really supports the up close and personal play style.

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I mean, ANY ship does better with a dedicated captain, but you loose out on capt. training by doing so

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She is more than similar enough to Bismarck, Tirpitz, FDG, and GK to share a captain with them. She and Tirpitz are both great captain trainers for the whole line. The skills that make her shine will make all of them shine.

Edit: You can have a dedicated captain in her and still use her as a captain trainer, premiums are awesome like that.

Edited by MasterDiggs

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For me, Manual Secondaries on Scharnhorst is a mistake. She has 2.0 Sigma IIRC so USE IT!  That’s why she’s so good at blapping cruisers. BFT and AFT sure!  AA and decent secondaries are a great combo with torps. I want Concealment Expert too for those Tier 9 battles where you really have to play it like a cruiser. Vigilance is a plus but I don’t have enough points.

My ideal Scharnhorst build would be:

http://shipcomrade.com/captcalc/1000000010000010000011000000100119

PT, HA, AR, BFT, SI, AFT and CE

However, I use my Konig captain so have to have Expert Marksman despite not needing that skill for Scharnhorst.  Like my Shchors captain having Superintendent because it’s so vital for Kutuzov.

 

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Hey

I have a dedicated captain in mine and have not rotated captains around but only in certain ships, shiny horse is not one of them.  I use her as a brawler, medium to close range engagements and will shoot anything.  One of my favorite premium ships overall.  I run PM, AR, SI, BFT, AFT, BofS, Dual Catapult AC.  I'm happy with it so far.

 

Pete

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I ran my German CA captain in it by mistake and found it to be quite..."relaxing." Compared to the GK captain I usually use the added flexibility was noticeable especially in high tier matches. I don't really get much use from manual secondaries and the concealment/AA focus was quite nice, I think a dedicated captain may be in her future. I'll just swap out DE for VI or SE.

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I think Scharnhorst is the only premium I'd buy right now but it's not available.

*looks at wargaming* *wink* *wink*

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Scharnhorst is one of my primary ships. I am glad to see discussion around her. I played Scharnhost over 350 battles. I put a special captain on her. Scharnhorst is a beast of its own kind. She deserves a dedicated captain to max her capability. My opinion is different to the OP of this thread. While I am not arragent to say I am right and others are wrong. I am happy to debate it and learn from the discussion.

I didn't use a survival build. I use a hybrid build to make her an agile battlecruiser. Here is my captain build:

Preventive Maintenance, Expert Marksman, Adrenaline Rush, BFT, Vigilance, AFT, Concealment. Note that I use 11% dispersion buff module on the ship.

 

The thread discussed about Scharnhorst survivial build. Scharnhorst's survivability is good, but there are many better survival ships there. For example, Nelson can resurrect herself from near death, Bismarck/Tirpitz/Friedrich has better health/armor. Even Arizona could outlast Scharnhorst in some condition.

Using a survival build also somewhat implies that you are trading damage with another ship over time. This put Scharnhorst in an even worst position. Yes, Scharnhorst survivability is great, but her damage output is weak in most BB vs BB damage trading scenario - especially if the enemy BB is bow on. Scharn's weak damage output negates her survivalbility, if the player intend to brawl her.  

 

So, if survivability build isn't the best, what build is better? In my opinion. Scharnhorst is the best battlecruiser in the game, and that is the primary focus of my build. I build my Scharnhorst for a sole purpose in mind: Enable her to show up at a strategic position, disrupt enemy fleet formation, and stay there long enough till the team wins.

All my build elements are chosen for doing this task with support, or alone. Yes, alone. It's nice to have a leading DD scouting torps for me, and it's nice to have a supporting CA shooting down planes and/or spamming HE. However, having played 6K battles I learned not to count on my team. I spec my ship/captain to ride through the potential threat. To my surprise, Scharnhorst really can do this task alone, and survive.

 

Please note that Scharnhorst really can't go solo, form a flank alone, kill a bounch of ships, and win a Kraken - at least not in a regular basis. And that's really not the purpose of this build. I used 'survive' in above statements for that reason. When Scharnhortst is positioned in a strategic location, the key is to survive, not to shine.

 

With above build purpose in mind, I made below tradeoff:

Concealment vs. manual secondary

Concealment is far more important than the secondary. Scharnhorst 2ndry can't outperform Bismarck anyway, and the purpose of the secondary is more useful for repelling enemy DD, not for killing BB. Concealment is a clear winner

Vigilance vs. Superintendent 

The extra charge of heal is only useful when I exhaust all other charges, while Vigilance is effective all the time. Vigilance enables more aggressive play. Plus, if I successfully reduce one torpedo hit, it out-balance the heal of extra charge. If I don't get to perform torpedo beat then this spec is useless, but... hey why would I complain?

AFT/BFT

Scharnhorst secondary is good, but not impressive. the AFT/BFT is really spec for AA purpose. When I push alone, it almost always get enemy CV's attention. Scharnhorst has top notch AA for her tier, so growing on that is a viable strategy.

 

And that's my conclusion: Scharnhorst more a GAME CHANGING ship than a brawler, a sniper, or the last solo warrior. My spec clearly shows that: I am an average shooter, my Scharnhorst dmg output is 57K - close to the NA server average 51K, however, my Scharnhorst win rate is significantly higher - 57% vs the server average of 52%. And I played Scharnhorst 350+ battles to prove the numbers legit.

 

I described my play theory above. I love to hear a different theory showing how a survival build or any other build shines, and I can learn from that.

Edited by Simuo
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If, and only if, you buy Premium Heal, then you may try to get away without Superintendent. However, that 1 battle in ten where you use all all of your heals and you’re running on fumes while trying to stave off defeat... 

Learning how to use heals to the best effect was one of the hardest things for me to learn in WoWs. It took forever for me to get to the point where I almost never have to worry about running out of the flags Dreadnought gives you. Until then, I didn’t understand what the fuss was about Superintendent either. 

Also, the Heals weren’t quite as important before the RN BB flame fest started. I had a Grosse Kurfurst shooting HE at my Conqueror today. Holy crap Batman!  Getting set on fire repeatedly by a Lyon/KGV/Nelson/etc. in Scharnhorst can ruin a game, and all that fire damage is repairable. 

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22 hours ago, HeathenForay said:

I ran my German CA captain in it by mistake and found it to be quite..."relaxing." Compared to the GK captain I usually use the added flexibility was noticeable especially in high tier matches. I don't really get much use from manual secondaries and the concealment/AA focus was quite nice, I think a dedicated captain may be in her future. I'll just swap out DE for VI or SE.

I use my roon captain in mine from to time and it works well. I am currently training my geade captain in it :Smile_hiding:

while not good, it works

Edited by MasterDiggs

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The short answer is:

NO.

I have dedicated captains for T7, T8, and T10 KM BBs AND CAs.  The Scharnhorst does very well with each and every one of them - and they're all slightly different.

The key here is that there isn't One True Captain for the Scharnhorst (or even most ships).  There's only a Captain Best Suited For A Playstyle.

And the Scharn has several very successful playstyles, due to it having many characteristics of both cruisers and battleships.

Rotate your captains through it, adjusting your playstyle to account for the strengths of the captain currently sitting in it.

 

Building a dedicated captain for the Scharn won't produce any better results, because, ultimately, you'll still be doing exactly what I just said: customizing to a particular playstyle, and the fact is that there isn't a single playstyle for the Scharn.

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On 3/28/2018 at 9:07 AM, MasterDiggs said:

I am currently training my geade captain in it :Smile_hiding:

while not good, it works

Did the same when I got the Gaede, because apparently ze Germans don't need DD trainers. :fish_palm:

That said, I find Scharn good for training both CA and BB captains, because as others have pointed out, you can make it work well with both playstyles.

Edited by Haifischkoeder

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