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dmckay

Admiral Graf Spee...overpens?

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Using AP in last match I got 10 over pens hitting tier 6-7 cruisers and only 3 pens. Duh?  What am I doing wrong?  Her HE is not that good so I shoot AP. I have struggled with her and she has one of the highest win rate in her tier at 54% but I kinda suck in her. Advice?  Tks

Edited by dmckay

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4 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Paper armor hulls and large, high velocity AP shells will get you overpens unless you bag citadel hits.

OK.  Great torps but only 6 guns. I got cruisers firing like 9 shells at me and I actually feel out gunned a lot. She does have a hell of a win rate however. I need to go back to the drawing board with her. I am not at all comfortable taking her into random battle. 

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12 minutes ago, dmckay said:

OK.  Great torps but only 6 guns. I got cruisers firing like 9 shells at me and I actually feel out gunned a lot. She does have a hell of a win rate however. I need to go back to the drawing board with her. I am not at all comfortable taking her into random battle. 

She could use another turret but like you - my WR is good in it - one of my highest WRs for ships with over 100 battles and my average damage is better than server average.

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23 minutes ago, dmckay said:

Using AP in last match I got 10 over pens hitting tier 6-7 cruisers and only 3 pens. Duh?  What am I doing wrong?  Her HE is not that good so I shoot AP. I have struggled with her and she has one of the highest win rate in her tier at 54% but I kinda suck in her. Advice?  Tks

Basically my gripe about those who constantly crow about AP over HE for bigger gunned ships. Maybe if I didn’t see so many overpens I’d believe them more and shoot HE less?

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She's a ship I struggle with but have loads of fun in. Fire more at battleships and less at cruisers. Seems weird but remember she has guns comparable to Shiny Horse. (and that's a ship I do not struggle with).

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7 minutes ago, CylonRed said:

She could use another turret but like you - my WR is good in it - one of my highest WRs for ships with over 100 battles and my average damage is better than server average.

I have a crappy win rate in her but I have not fought a lotta random matches with her.  NOW, in my Scharnhorst I fight her on the front line (knife fighting killer) and I got 53% win rate in random with her but I tend to hang back in the Spee. I need practice with her and need to earn some upgrades. 

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2 minutes ago, TabbyHopkins said:

She's a ship I struggle with but have loads of fun in. Fire more at battleships and less at cruisers. Seems weird but remember she has guns comparable to Shiny Horse. (and that's a ship I do not struggle with).

Tks.  I think this is good advice. She won't overpen BBs and her guns WILL hurt them....then you got them torps. 

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2 minutes ago, dmckay said:

Tks.  I think this is good advice. She won't overpen BBs and her guns WILL hurt them....then you got them torps. 

Yea. Those torpedoes pack quite a punch when they connect. Something I would highly advise is to never fire just one gun at a target over 10km away. She really needs to fire both guns together to get any sort of real damage total.

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14 minutes ago, TabbyHopkins said:

Yea. Those torpedoes pack quite a punch when they connect. Something I would highly advise is to never fire just one gun at a target over 10km away. She really needs to fire both guns together to get any sort of real damage total.

Agreed.  Firing just 1 turret at a red tends to be pretty lame and generally does little....if you hit. Guns not overly accurate.  Many German ships have this issue. Scharn does also but I get in close no miss range with her and then wack them with secondaries, torps, main guns and all. Deadly ship in close. Some ships you click with and some you don't. :Smile_honoring:

Edited by dmckay

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Another vote for "shoot at battleships". I adore my Graf Spee, she's probably tied with the Kamikaze R as my favourite ship. The problem with your WR is that she isn't a ship that can really influence a match until late. Her DPM is low, so you're not knocking other ships out of the fight quickly. The only way around that is to make more frequent use of your torpedoes, but that means getting dangerously close unless you're able to island ambush early on.

  • Early in the match, stay at 14-16km and target battleships and broadside cruisers (pray for normal pens).
  • Mid match, start closing on outstanding cruisers and use your armor. Shoot torpedoes at BB's at max range when able.
  • Late match, ambush BB's with your torpedoes. You can even rush them if they're distracted, your armor bounces quite a bit for a cruise

DD's can be challenging because you only have 6 rifles. If you do get a good shot on one inside of 12km, take it. I've done 7k volleys on DD's running a straight line at that range.

Edited by Jiggiwatt
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2 hours ago, Jiggiwatt said:

Another vote for "shoot at battleships". I adore my Graf Spee, she's probably tied with the Kamikaze R as my favourite ship. The problem with your WR is that she isn't a ship that can really influence a match until late. Her DPM is low, so you're not knocking other ships out of the fight quickly. The only way around that is to make more frequent use of your torpedoes, but that means getting dangerously close unless you're able to island ambush early on.

  • Early in the match, stay at 14-16km and target battleships and broadside cruisers (pray for normal pens).
  • Mid match, start closing on outstanding cruisers and use your armor. Shoot torpedoes at BB's at max range when able.
  • Late match, ambush BB's with your torpedoes. You can even rush them if they're distracted, your armor bounces quite a bit for a cruise

DD's can be challenging because you only have 6 rifles. If you do get a good shot on one inside of 12km, take it. I've done 7k volleys on DD's running a straight line at that range.

Pretty much this.^   Graf Spee is one of my top 3 ships.

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Yeah got gifted Graf Spee last week and have been having a blast in it. Got to use / try out Graf Spee as a Corgi Captain a month ago which was a major baptism of fire for testing Graf Spee since I not only had to learn the ship quickly, but also I was always target #1 for the enemy team. And if they wanted me they had to sail over their sunken comrades to get to me if they ever managed to lol. So if a Graf Spee can handle those kind of matches it can handle other things, but the catch seems to be that it really needs a 19 point captain to be truly effective.

It needs some of the skills of a Battleship and some of the CA ones combined into 1 ship which results in the great need for high point Captain. Think that might be one of the reasons some players hate the Graf Spee is while many other tier VI ships you can throw a 8 point captain in and do ok. Graf Spee on the other hand is far more demanding as if it were a high tier ship.

Despite what some might say about the AP shells doing reliable damage, I have found AP to have a high rate of reliability. The same as AP being quite reliable when fired from most Battleship guns as well as some Cruisers. Granted if an armored ship is bow on, then naturally Graf Spee Guns will struggle a little when even the guns of heavier Warships will as well for that matter.

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On 3/26/2018 at 3:53 PM, dmckay said:

Using AP in last match I got 10 over pens hitting tier 6-7 cruisers and only 3 pens. Duh?  What am I doing wrong?  Her HE is not that good so I shoot AP. I have struggled with her and she has one of the highest win rate in her tier at 54% but I kinda suck in her. Advice?  Tks

A cruiser like the Émile Bertin literally has a hull with 13mm of armor.  To put that in perspective, the WWI FT light tank had 22mm of armor.  You think an 230mm shell has a chance to arm against something so thin, a Tankgewehr could punch through it?  The La Galissonnière ups the hull armor to 16mm, still not proof against an 13.2mm anti-tank rifle.  The Algérie finally up it to 22mm-16mm for most of the hull, finally start to match a light tank for armor.  While the 13.2mm cartridge may begin to struggle with penning the armor, the 230mm shell is still going to sail right through it unless it's hitting the magazine armor.

1280px-Char_Renault_FT17_at_the_Invalide

Edited by Sventex

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17 minutes ago, Sventex said:

A cruiser like the Émile Bertin literally has a hull with 13mm of armor.  To put that in perspective, the WWI FT light tank had 22mm of armor.  You think an 230mm shell has a chance to arm against something so thin, a Tankgewehr could punch through it?  The La Galissonnière ups the hull armor to 16mm, still not proof against an 13.2mm anti-tank rifle.  The Algérie finally up it to 22mm-16mm for most of the hull, finally start to match a light tank for armor.  While the 13.2mm cartridge may begin to struggle with penning the armor, the 230mm shell is still going to sail right through it unless it's hitting the magazine armor.

1280px-Char_Renault_FT17_at_the_Invalide

Nice shot of Invalides, memorial there this afternoon. Vive la France!

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i do think that for reasons known for wg only,cruisers overpen a lot more with AP than BBs do. Makes no sense at all ? A BB can easily erase a dd or CL -CA with AP shots,yet most CLs and even DDs with AP ammo overpen the same targets..??  

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On 3/26/2018 at 6:53 PM, dmckay said:

Using AP in last match I got 10 over pens hitting tier 6-7 cruisers and only 3 pens. Duh?  What am I doing wrong?  Her HE is not that good so I shoot AP. I have struggled with her and she has one of the highest win rate in her tier at 54% but I kinda suck in her. Advice?  Tks

Yea, play something else. I have 2 of them (thanks Santa!! /s). They're absolutely terrible.

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I've found that depending on the ranges I'm better off firing HE. 

My Spee cmdr plan is for an IFHE Secondaries build. And the 283s with be able to get HE Citadels against Cruisers of equal and lower tiers relatively easily. 

Not saying don't AP, but sometimes you've got the fastest firing cannons shooting at a Target. I've everyone else is using AP, it's always good to have someone play "fire starter"

One other thing to possibly do is account for poor dispersion. Having only 2x turrets, the GS guns can feel wonky. Personally I haven't a tendency to aim for upper belt; sure if it disperses high you'll over pen. But if it disperses low you might catch a Citadel. 

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On 3/26/2018 at 3:53 PM, dmckay said:

Using AP in last match I got 10 over pens hitting tier 6-7 cruisers and only 3 pens. Duh?  What am I doing wrong?  Her HE is not that good so I shoot AP. I have struggled with her and she has one of the highest win rate in her tier at 54% but I kinda suck in her. Advice?  Tks

Stop looking for that flat broadside, you want enough angle to slow your nasty little shells down enough.,..:Smile_teethhappy:

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2 minutes ago, Ivlerlin said:

I've found that depending on the ranges I'm better off firing HE. 

My Spee cmdr plan is for an IFHE Secondaries build. And the 283s with be able to get HE Citadels against Cruisers of equal and lower tiers relatively easily. 

Not saying don't AP, but sometimes you've got the fastest firing cannons shooting at a Target. I've everyone else is using AP, it's always good to have someone play "fire starter"

One other thing to possibly do is account for poor dispersion. Having only 2x turrets, the GS guns can feel wonky. Personally I haven't a tendency to aim for upper belt; sure if it disperses high you'll over pen. But if it disperses low you might catch a Citadel. 

Sorry, but that is not the answer.....When you compare the hit value of HE cits to AP cits, you'll understand why.

Graf is deadly, and can delete Cruisers, and punch 20-30k hits on broadside BB's. HE should only be used when you're sure you can't get a pen.

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1 hour ago, VonSmallHausenn said:

i do think that for reasons known for wg only,cruisers overpen a lot more with AP than BBs do. Makes no sense at all ? A BB can easily erase a dd or CL -CA with AP shots,yet most CLs and even DDs with AP ammo overpen the same targets..??  

Ya.............duh?  Makes no sense....to me. 

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On 3/26/2018 at 7:28 PM, TabbyHopkins said:

She's a ship I struggle with but have loads of fun in. Fire more at battleships and less at cruisers. Seems weird but remember she has guns comparable to Shiny Horse. (and that's a ship I do not struggle with).

Can you help me with the Scharnhorst.......I really struggle in that ship. I had 31 hits in a game for 33,000 damage. My shells just don't seem to do any damage. In most BB's I have a WTR of between 1200-1400 in the Scharnhorst it is in the 800's.

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8 minutes ago, awiggin said:

Stop looking for that flat broadside, you want enough angle to slow your nasty little shells down enough.,..:Smile_teethhappy:

Hummmmm I wonder if that is my problem. I get around 50% overpens with the Scharnhorst. So I should be shooting at cruisers while they are angled?

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Just now, Belthorian said:

Hummmmm I wonder if that is my problem. I get around 50% overpens with the Scharnhorst. So I should be shooting at cruisers while they are angled?

Seems to work for me, It's like shooting at an Emerald with AP from any cruiser, you hit it flat it's all overpens, you get an angle and it dies.

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2 minutes ago, awiggin said:

Sorry, but that is not the answer.....When you compare the hit value of HE cits to AP cits, you'll understand why.

Graf is deadly, and can delete Cruisers, and punch 20-30k hits on broadside BB's. HE should only be used when you're sure you can't get a pen.

Secondaries IMO opinion only tend to slap at the problem.....MAIN GUNS solve it. In Sharnhorst I got build for most accuracy with main guns @ secondaries and fast torp traverse. I watch secondaries just kinda peck away. I kill in it with main guns and torps. I DO NOT hunt DDs in Scharn.  Let cruisers do that. IMO.

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