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Belthorian

Japanese Premium Battleship Carrier Hybrid

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 I think it would be cool to see the Ise in game. Part Battleship, part carrier. The ultimate test for players with multitasking capability. I don't play CV's but I would be interested to see how people would play her.

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I seriously doubt we will see aviation cruisers or battleships until after the carrier revamp. They're definitely cool/iconic enough to make it into the game, but they're not workable within the current meta. That drain has enough hair in it as-is.

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2 minutes ago, AviationBattleship_Hyuga said:

I seriously doubt we will see aviation cruisers or battleships until after the carrier revamp. They're definitely cool/iconic enough to make it into the game, but they're not workable within the current meta. That drain has enough hair in it as-is.

The drain has enough hair in it as is..........ROFLMAO that is hilarious.

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Hybrid ships have long been talked about in this game.  Hell, we even had a long time ago Tone's model tucked away ingame.  That was 2015.

 

The problem is meshing together the gameplay, control of 2 totally different WoWS combat mechanics.  Surface combatant, CV aircraft controls.  That's where WG is having problems, IIRC.  I mean, we have CV players that have problems controlling their planes already, now we have to worry about secondaries and main battery also?

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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That would be SUPER COOL !!!

Drop some torps to line that enemy BB up..  Then citadel the heck out of it.

 

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Here's how I think aviation cruisers and battleships should work:

  1. Act as normal surface ships
  2. Have fighter and dive-bomber (no torpedo) squadrons
  3. Target ships by normal means, then by pressing the appropriate key, launch squadron to auto-attack the selected ship
  4. Fighters will hover over target ships for however long they have ammunition, attacking any enemy planes that come within 5-8km of the target ship
  5. Dive bombers will auto-attack target ships as per normal A.I.-based targeting from A.I.-controlled carrier aircraft
  6. Cooldowns per normal regarding CVs

Apply the same or similar measures to CVs, and blamo, you've got the CV rework down as well.

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would be cool to have them in game, they could actually defend themselves from dds that break through.

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WG would only do this if they could make $$$ off it and seeing how low the CV population is I don't think It will happen.

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If Ise is released, my guess is that she'd be a mid tier CV with battleship caliber secondaries (because reasons)

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1 hour ago, AviationBattleship_Hyuga said:

I seriously doubt we will see aviation cruisers or battleships until after the carrier revamp. They're definitely cool/iconic enough to make it into the game, but they're not workable within the current meta. That drain has enough hair in it as-is.

This. They've said pretty much this any time they get asked about Tone. Basically they don't want to add more player controlled aircraft (the likely path CAV / BBV would take) till they're happy with the way they work now. 

That said I'd smash the buy button so hard to get Tone. CAV or not. One of my favorite ships. 

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One major problem I see with such a ship is balance.  How is such a ship treated?  As a CV or BB for MM?  Or a new category which means you might have even longer wait times in such a ship.

If its treated as a BB, then you now have one side with a 'carrier' advantage.  If its treated as a CV, you're side is at a disadvantage unless its gets a massive buff at T6 to fight enemy carriers.

There is already a lot of complaints against MM, such a ship won't help.

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37 minutes ago, Wowzery said:

One major problem I see with such a ship is balance.  How is such a ship treated?  As a CV or BB for MM?  Or a new category which means you might have even longer wait times in such a ship.

If its treated as a BB, then you now have one side with a 'carrier' advantage.  If its treated as a CV, you're side is at a disadvantage unless its gets a massive buff at T6 to fight enemy carriers.

There is already a lot of complaints against MM, such a ship won't help.

BB and cruiser by the MM, with some flexibility. For Tone, I'd like to see either controllable spotter planes, or an autonomous fighter squadron that circles the ship and essentially provides CAP. For Ise/Hyuga, some strike capacity would be awesome. My dream would be a squadron of fighters and a squadron of TBs, so you can defend yourself and attack enemy battleships (or force them to turn).

They're cruisers/battleships at their heart, though, just with additional utility.

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They were also desperation development and were an either or ship. If they were operating planes they were not likely to come under fire and if they were using their guns they were not operating planes. They can't get CV's right so this kind of Frankenstein ship would be impossible to balance. I can see them as a bot in an operation but not in randoms or even co-op.

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2 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Hybrid ships have long been talked about in this game.  Hell, we even had a long time ago Tone's model tucked away ingame.  That was 2015.

 

The problem is meshing together the gameplay, control of 2 totally different WoWS combat mechanics.  Surface combatant, CV aircraft controls.  That's where WG is having problems, IIRC.  I mean, we have CV players that have problems controlling their planes already, now we have to worry about secondaries and main battery also?

Well, it's worse that just that.  

Ise and ships like here were not converted into "Aircraft Carriers" in the way that we think of with WOWS but were instead converted into "Seaplane Carriers".  

Now seaplane carriers operated aircraft that's true, and the IJN had a number of very good aircraft designs to use in them operationally.  These aircraft could never perform at their highest potential however, nor match carrier based aircraft from other nations due to the high amount of drag imparted on them by their float, however the IJN came closer to this than pretty much any other nation so the air wing is not the largest problem.  

What is the problem is the launching and recovering of aircraft from a seaplane carrier as opposed to an aircraft carrier.  

A seaplane carrier does not have a flight deck it can use to launch or recover aircraft.  To launch aircraft, seaplane carriers had to use a trolley system to move aircraft to and attach them to various catapults which would then be used to launch the aircraft. This takes a good deal more time than just rolling aircraft down the flight deck so launching times would be significantly longer than with a typical CV.  Further, the number of planes a seaplane carrier can launch in this method is limited to the number of catapults available to them.  The Ise is well equipped in this regard as she carried 10 catapults which would allow her to launch two normal strength squadrons at one time but there would be a significant lag in her ability to launch the next set of aircraft. 

Alternatively, a seaplane carrier could hoist all of her aircraft over the side and have them take off from the water but that would take even longer.  Bonus here though is that, once all of her aircraft were over the side, she could potentially launch all of them at the same time. 

The larger problem is aircraft recovery. There were no provisions for Seaplane Carriers to recover their aircraft from the launch deck.  Aircraft returning to the carrier needed to land on the water, then taxi over close to the ship and then be hoisted up to the launch deck before they could be readied for their next sortie.  This took a long time to recover her aircraft and in order to do so, the ship had to be at somewhere close to a dead stop. This would make recovery and readying a returning squadron for renewed action absolutely glacial as in more time than there is in a typical game.  

So essentially, with a Seaplane Carrier like Ise, you have a vessel which could launch her squadrons maybe once a game, possibly on the outside, twice. She'd also be forced to use inferior aircraft in her air groups so ... as a carrier, I'm afraid she'd be a big disappointment.  

Now, a potentially effective hybrid carrier was actually developed by the US Navy and was almost authorized for construction in the 30's.  These ships featured the battery of a small heavy cruiser, in this case six 8 inch guns in three twin turrets mounted forward with a truncated flight deck mounted behind and above the battery but being a real flight deck with an offset island which would have, theoretically, been capable of launching and retrieving aircraft.  Something like this could potentially create a real hybrid carrier/cruiser rather than a seaplane carrier with guns. 

Now, even with these limitations, if you did want to introduce Ise to the game or the American hybrids, it would be a multitasking nightmare, but if you were willing to accept that (and with the Ise it would be easier considering that you have essentially a one sortie airgroup) then switching between the two modes should be fairly simple.  After all, right now hitting the "1" key brings you back to a normal ship view and if you added a tap to the shift key bringing you the binocular view and keys to represent AP and HE to the mix, then that's what you'd need to fight the ships as surface combatants. 

Edited by BB3_Oregon_Steel
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There's one other item I forget to mention. 

If you just want aircraft carriers with big guns, the Lexington, Saratoga, Akagi and Kaga as originally constructed are for you. 

The Lexington and Saratoga both carried Eight 8 inch guns in four twin turrets, all mounted at the flight deck level with two turrets sited in front of the bridge and two behind in a superfiring arrangements.  

Akagi and Kaga carried ten 8 inch guns, with four mounted in two twin turrets mounted forward on her middle flight deck (which flight deck was removed in her 1934 refit) with the rest mounted in casemates along the side of the ship. 

This theoretically gave these carriers the same firepower of a moderate sized heavy cruiser in case of attack by surface vessels.  These were all removed in the 1930's and replaced by dual purpose guns. Still, especially with the Lexington and Saratoga, (Akagi and Kaga might be more difficult due to the removal of that middle flight deck) it would be interesting to see these guns as an option trading off AA firepower for the ability to tangle with cruisers and dd's which might be foolish enough to approach them. 

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To the OP, I agree, these would be awesome in-game. A BB and CV in one? TAKE MY MONEY! (That is if WG allowed me full control in BOTH modes)

However, in real life, these conversions were the WORST of both worlds. A gimped carrier with really crappy seaplanes (even the partial load of Ise/Hyuga 'conventional' dive bombers couldn't re-land on them) and a 'crippled' BB with a good chunk of its firepower taken away from it, let alone the larger target and less operational flexibility it presented.

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The potential I see in these "hybrid" ships is the one thing I've wanted since beginning of the game: controllable scouts

Historically, these were not "hydrid cvs" but actually CAs / BBs with extra capacity for scout float planes. The philosophy was that these ships with their extra scouts would take over the reconnaissance role, freeing up CV planes for striking enemy fleets.

Let see if they can implement that.

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Personally, I don't give a flip  about the Ise BB/CV hybrid.  I'd rather see a fictional or, if such a upgrade proposal existed, an upgraded Ise straight up battleship.  Of course, I suppose that it doesn't float WG's boat because they have this hair across their behinds about making things oh so unique, when I'd be happy to just see the Ise as a plain ol' BB in the game.

As for the Tone as an aviation cruiser, the reality is that they were meant as carriers of scout planes, not combat aircraft.   And I've suggested that perhaps the easiest way to implement them would be with their "scout" planes being spotters, though with a lot shorter cooldowns, so that the Tone could have a spotter in the air most of the game, extending her gun range.  This wouldn't require any special mechanics, except perhaps a special set of scout/spotter planes (regular and premium versions) with shorter cooldown periods.  This idea seems like one they could implement in a very short amount of time and a minimum amount of effort.

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5 hours ago, Crucis said:

Personally, I don't give a flip  about the Ise BB/CV hybrid.  I'd rather see a fictional or, if such a upgrade proposal existed, an upgraded Ise straight up battleship.  Of course, I suppose that it doesn't float WG's boat because they have this hair across their behinds about making things oh so unique, when I'd be happy to just see the Ise as a plain ol' BB in the game.

As for the Tone as an aviation cruiser, the reality is that they were meant as carriers of scout planes, not combat aircraft.   And I've suggested that perhaps the easiest way to implement them would be with their "scout" planes being spotters, though with a lot shorter cooldowns, so that the Tone could have a spotter in the air most of the game, extending her gun range.  This wouldn't require any special mechanics, except perhaps a special set of scout/spotter planes (regular and premium versions) with shorter cooldown periods.  This idea seems like one they could implement in a very short amount of time and a minimum amount of effort.

That's how I suspect it will be with maybe both fighter and spotter being available at the same time for the Tone and the same with Ise. Maybe the skill that gives an extra catapult plane baked into the ship itself. 

(TBH, I've always wondered why they didn't put Ise class as a t6 premuim [regardless of configuration] instead of the Mutsu, but as the RN premium bbs have shown, it could still be put there.)

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Ise in my book would be a great tier 6 BB with nearly endless spotter planes. Being able to launch two spotters...hell even three would be rad. More so she has a stronger AA battery than most ships at her tier (rocket AA!)

Yet the "meat in the tail" for the planes is where she is going to be very easy to citadel, she'd be squishy forcing her to fight at range..but with great IJN accuracy she'd be a fun ship to play. 

Add flavor...give her some bombers that cannot be manual dropped.

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8 hours ago, Belthorian said:

 I think it would be cool to see the Ise in game. Part Battleship, part carrier. The ultimate test for players with multitasking capability. I don't play CV's but I would be interested to see how people would play her.

I would love to see this is game but its just never going to happen. People in this game dont know how to play a ship, let alone a carrier. If you try to combine the two into one ... well take a wild guess what will happen.

The only thing that I can imagine WG will be able to do, is to introduce Tone/Ise as myoko/fuso-like clones that replace the rear turrets for a flight deck that launches 4x fight planes that just circle the ship. The planes themselves wont be under your control.

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16 hours ago, Belthorian said:

 I think it would be cool to see the Ise in game. Part Battleship, part carrier. The ultimate test for players with multitasking capability. I don't play CV's but I would be interested to see how people would play her.

Hi

Interesting idea sadly don't think it will work because they cant even get standard CV play fixed but hey here is a novel idea why don't we just have the Ise class Battleship in well say maybe standard BATTLESHIP configuration and forget about this hybrid stuff.

regards 

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15 hours ago, StoptheViolins said:

WG is still trying to Tone it down some.

hi

Yes plus 1 for that reply 

dry wit one of the best forms of humour and you sir  mastered it perfectly

cheers 

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