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geser98

Too many HE-spamming Normandies

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I'm not sure why, but I see too many Normandie captains spamming HE even at broadside BBs and cruisers. Not sure why people do this, it seems a bit pointless, but maybe I'm missing something.

Say, you're in a Normandie shooting HE at a T6 BB with top hull upgrade and DCS1 upgrade. Then, if you hit 4 out of 12 shells on target, your fire chance is:

1- (1-(0.26*0.7669 - 0.05))4 = 1 - (.85)4 = 0.48 or 48% per salvo and your damage in this case is (4700/3)*4 = 6266 per salvo or 12532 DPM. Those are all pretty rubbish numbers. Am I missing something?

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Yes, consistency.  If you shoot HE you're going to do a few thousand damage pretty much guaranteed.  The AP is fairly lacklustre at distance and terribly inaccurate, so you might end up with nothing.  Fires are gravy - nice if you have it but not critical. You can pile up 50-80k damage in a fairly average normandie battle using HE, or you can scrounge half that with AP.  That's why people use HE.

In general, if you see "too many" of "X" doing "Y" it's because they've figured out that is the best way to get ahead.  If everyone is doing it, they're probably correct, too.

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There's also gun calibre to look at. Depending on ranges, HE is the more effective ammo option against a ship. And thanks to HE's aoe effects against some modules, if they're planning on brawling in secondary range they might be looking to gain the upper hand in that area; knocking out secondaries. 

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16 minutes ago, InvalidKey said:

Yes, consistency.  If you shoot HE you're going to do a few thousand damage pretty much guaranteed.

Interesting. I'll test it when I get home. I mean at long ranges HE shell velocity does look very tempting, should be much easier to hit stuff.

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In Co-op I brawl pretty regularly in Normandie; firing HE outside 10k, except if a bot gives a broadside; and AP pretty consistently inside 10k.

@XpliCT_PaiiN pretty much convinced me of the utility of doing so with Mushi, and that translated over into how I use Normandie.

Ship and captain are set up full secondary anyway, and I get fires enough from those.

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49 minutes ago, geser98 said:

I'm not sure why, but I see too many Normandie captains spamming HE even at broadside BBs and cruisers. Not sure why people do this, it seems a bit pointless, but maybe I'm missing something.

Say, you're in a Normandie shooting HE at a T6 BB with top hull upgrade and DCS1 upgrade. Then, if you hit 4 out of 12 shells on target, your fire chance is:

1- (1-(0.26*0.7669 - 0.05))4 = 1 - (.85)4 = 0.48 or 48% per salvo and your damage in this case is (4700/3)*4 = 6266 per salvo or 12532 DPM. Those are all pretty rubbish numbers. Am I missing something?

First of all, you'll definitely see the same thing from the Lyon.  A big part of the problem is the caliber of the guns, 12".  Against tier 8 (or 9, if you're in a Lyon) BBs those 12" guns firing AP can be rather lackluster at range.  Oh, if you aim for the superstructure you can do fairly well.  But those small guns just don't have the punch to get you citadels vs high tier BBs, at least reliably at range.  You're better off spamming HE for the reliable damage, plus the decent chance of fires.

Another thing you're missing is that just because you see the Normandie (or a Lyon) firing HE at a broadside BB doesn't mean that the target BB was broadside when the Normandie/Lyon started loading its guns.

Honestly, I prefer the AP slinging BB meta, but I'm not going to not use HE when there are compelling reasons to do so.  And when you're in a BB with small guns and bottom tier, spamming HE is a very reasonable option, particularly when you're a Lyon with SIXTEEN guns firing those HE shells.

 

 

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48 minutes ago, geser98 said:

I'm not sure why, but I see too many Normandie captains spamming HE even at broadside BBs and cruisers. Not sure why people do this, it seems a bit pointless, but maybe I'm missing something.

Say, you're in a Normandie shooting HE at a T6 BB with top hull upgrade and DCS1 upgrade. Then, if you hit 4 out of 12 shells on target, your fire chance is:

1- (1-(0.26*0.7669 - 0.05))4 = 1 - (.85)4 = 0.48 or 48% per salvo and your damage in this case is (4700/3)*4 = 6266 per salvo or 12532 DPM. Those are all pretty rubbish numbers. Am I missing something?

Most players have no real concept of the gun mechanics, that's why you see Derpitz's blasting HE at broadsides all the time.

Not really wanting WG to dumb the game down any more, but the sad fact is the game mechanics are far too complex for the average player here.

Also, posting with alts makes me wonder what your point is? Since you're obviously the alt of a competent player, seems like you should already know the answer to your question.....:Smile_facepalm:

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You can paint players with potato brushes if you want to, but players want to do well in all situations.  Hot swapping between AP and HE isn't something that many people are comfortable doing when they don't know what's coming.  HE isn't the best choice always, but it is consistent.  At close range, when you could potentially do much more damage with AP, it's still going to get you a few thousand damage and potential fires to use HE.

I agree with @Estimated_Prophet that under 10k i'd probably switch to AP, but not everyone will bother.  Normandie isn't exactly hard to damage.  It's a barge with guns, so many people will stay at distance, and at distance HE is more reliable.  Like OP says, a lot of people are doing it.  If you're not down for brawling in a marshmallow and want to rack up damage using a scatter gun, you might as well use incendiary ammo.

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24 minutes ago, awiggin said:

Also, posting with alts makes me wonder what your point is? Since you're obviously the alt of a competent player, seems like you should already know the answer to your question.....:Smile_facepalm:

No, I really didn't know the answer.

And the reason my signature is different from my forum name is because I mostly play on Asia, but the forum there is a bit deserted, so I post instead on NA and I just feel like that signature gives better idea of what kind of player I am, rather than me putting my NA account signature or the one from RU.

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16 minutes ago, InvalidKey said:

You can paint players with potato brushes if you want to, but players want to do well in all situations.  Hot swapping between AP and HE isn't something that many people are comfortable doing when they don't know what's coming.  HE isn't the best choice always, but it is consistent.  At close range, when you could potentially do much more damage with AP, it's still going to get you a few thousand damage and potential fires to use HE.

I agree with @Estimated_Prophet that under 10k i'd probably switch to AP, but not everyone will bother.  Normandie isn't exactly hard to damage.  It's a barge with guns, so many people will stay at distance, and at distance HE is more reliable.  Like OP says, a lot of people are doing it.  If you're not down for brawling in a marshmallow and want to rack up damage using a scatter gun, you might as well use incendiary ammo.

Dude, if those "many players" aren't comfortable with ammo switching, I'd say that that's the sure sign of spudness.  I may not know if I'll have broadside shots or not, but I usually do have a pretty solid idea who I intend to shoot at, and thus am willing to make ammo switches.  Also, if you're in a BB like Normandie or Lyon with smallish guns that are a bit challenged when not top tier, you have to be aware of whether you're top tier or bottom tier in any battle.  In those 2 BBs, when you're top tier, your 12" guns are usually solid enough to nearly always use AP.  But if you're bottom tier, you may find yourself preferring HE at long ranges where your pen vs higher tier BBs will be suspect.

Also, saying that some people can't be bothered to switch ammo to AP at close range is another sure sign of spudness, unless perhaps you're going to engage a DD or maybe a BB on very low health and you'd rather not risk bouncing AP when the small but consistent HE should get you the kill.  But against a very healthy BB, not switching to AP at short range is pure spuditity (yes, I intended to spell it that way) when what you really need is raw alpha potential.

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49 minutes ago, InvalidKey said:

I agree with @Estimated_Prophet that under 10k i'd probably switch to AP, but not everyone will bother.  Normandie isn't exactly hard to damage.  It's a barge with guns, so many people will stay at distance, and at distance HE is more reliable.  Like OP says, a lot of people are doing it.  If you're not down for brawling in a marshmallow and want to rack up damage using a scatter gun, you might as well use incendiary ammo.

Well, I've read a few posts that aren't very complimentary about Normandie, but maybe that's why I like it? I seem to like/do well with disliked ships... (Mutsuki, Emerald, Marblehead, a few others.)

Still a bit undecided about it in Randoms; but in Ops and PvE i'm lovin' Normandie big time. Do the same thing I do with Mikasa; hammer the torpies until they go away, then move in and brawl. The secondaries have been a total blast. In one run at Killer Whale, I had over 300 secondary hits. :cap_rambo:

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37 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Also, if you're in a BB like Normandie or Lyon with smallish guns that are a bit challenged when not top tier, you have to be aware of whether you're top tier or bottom tier in any battle.  In those 2 BBs, when you're top tier, your 12" guns are usually solid enough to nearly always use AP.  But if you're bottom tier, you may find yourself preferring HE at long ranges where your pen vs higher tier BBs will be suspect.

This really depends on the play style IMO. For example, in Scharnhorst and it's 283mm rifles, you can use HE, but, it's German HE and only 9 guns. On the other hand, if you concentrate on what your ship has been designed for, i.e. hunting cruisers and flanking, where you have access to juicy broadsides so you can stick to AP and only switch to HE when having to fight an angled BB. But then again, if you're in this situation, some things are not going right for you in this battle.

And the way I see Normandie and Lyon is that those are really battlecruisers that have to be played in the same fashion. Use your speed and maneuverability to get in positions where you can use AP and then do massive damage. If target starts angling towards you - all the better. You can disengage, while they potentially open their broadside for someone on your team with bigger guns.

Edited by geser98

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Normandie's not awful, it's just not all things to all people - as no ship should be.  it's got some pros and cons to be sure, and those skilled in the art might be able to wield the marshmallow with greater effect than others.

I'm liking the normandie myself, but i doubt i'll be a return customer much after the grind is over.  There are so many ships that speak to me, this sadly isn't one.

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1 hour ago, geser98 said:

This really depends on the play style IMO. For example, in Scharnhorst and it's 283mm rifles, you can use HE, but, it's German HE and only 9 guns. On the other hand, if you concentrate on what your ship has been designed for, i.e. hunting cruisers and flanking, where you have access to juicy broadsides so you can stick to AP and only switch to HE when having to fight an angled BB. But then again, if you're in this situation, some things are not going right for you in this battle.

And the way I see Normandie and Lyon is that those are really battlecruisers that have to be played in the same fashion. Use your speed and maneuverability to get in positions where you can use AP and then do massive damage. If target starts angling towards you - all the better. You can disengage, while they potentially open their broadside for someone on your team with bigger guns.

Flanking can be a fine tactic as well as strategy.  But those 12" guns on the Normandie and Lyon do not have the punch to penetrate BB belt armor at longer ranges.  They just don't.  And it doesn't matter whether you have a perfect broadside or not.  That's why HE is important to use at long ranges against those tier 8 and 9 BBs, angled or not, when you're at long ranges.  If you get to more moderate ranges, then you can think about aiming for superstructures when the armor is weaker, and your 12" AP shouldn't have so much trouble penning.  Indeed, the fact that the guns are smaller can work in your favor because you might get fewer overpens.

As for dealing with cruisers, that's really just a big DUH!!!!  BBs with smallish guns are still great for smacking around cruisers.  It really should go without saying that this is true.

 

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2 hours ago, geser98 said:

No, I really didn't know the answer.

And the reason my signature is different from my forum name is because I mostly play on Asia, but the forum there is a bit deserted, so I post instead on NA and I just feel like that signature gives better idea of what kind of player I am, rather than me putting my NA account signature or the one from RU.

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Ok, well that explains the account. :Smile_teethhappy:

But are the other servers really that much different?

I don't play them, so no first hand experience. But I do read a lot, and most posters from other servers really don't seem to describe the player base on other servers as any better than what we have here.

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2 hours ago, Crucis said:

But those 12" guns on the Normandie and Lyon

Sorry, they are actually 13.4". French people like being different.

2 hours ago, Crucis said:

They just don't.  And it doesn't matter whether you have a perfect broadside or not.

Well, there is a handy AP pen calculator: https://mustanghx.github.io/ship_ap_calculator/

For example if we take Normandie vs Bismarck, then she should be able to punch through the belt armor of ze German at up to ~13 km and upper belt armor at all ranges. 

At max range of 19.78 km Normandie still has 285 mm pen so upper belt armor of any BB in her MM spread is a fair game.

2 hours ago, awiggin said:

But are the other servers really that much different?

I can't say they are very much different. There's a bit more and better team chat on NA and RU compared to SEA, since on our server people come from whole heap of different language backgrounds and many simply don't speak English. And definitely less complaining and drama on other forums compared to NA :Smile_teethhappy:

EDIT: Also I forgot to mention that HE pen of 340 mm shells is 56 mm. With this amount of pen you can't punch through any BB belt armor (duh!) nor upper belt armor. Also conning tower and gun mounts are impenetrable with HE.

So you're relegating yourself to a much smaller target (superstructure) and part of deck armor (except on Fuso you can't even pen the deck). With AP you can pen both upper belt AND superstructure (overpen here). I still can't see how it makes sense that HE is more consistent in damage. Only when facing a heavily angled target it makes sense to use HE.

Again, the only good reason to use HE is the shell velocity. But as for damage dealing, it's not really that great.

Edited by geser98

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Well, I've done some testing last night and can confirm that the last point (about HE pen) ended up being quite very wrong. Very surprising, but still I was wrong. 

I did 4 runs total. In first two runs I've been shooting Amagis for 10 minutes first with AP, then with HE. First target was angled at about ~15 degrees and at 12.5 km range. Second Amagi was practically broadside at 15.5 km.

On the second run same was done with NCs. 

Obviously, it was just a target practice with bots that don't repair double fires, so adjustment had to be done to final scores. Against Amagis I had two full duration double fires (one on each ship), I replaced them with a single duration fire for each. Vs NCs I had one full double fire, which I again replaced with a single fire.

Against Amagis AP in 5 minutes scored a total of 65 hits, out of which 16 were non-pens and did 69k damage. No citadels. HE (with fire adjustment) did exactly the same damage - 69k in 45 hits, out of which 36k came from fires. There were only two non-pens. Lower number of hits with HE is due to me aiming slightly above water line as you normally would when trying to get superstructures.

Vs North Carolinas AP did 91k in 51 hit, with only 5 non-pens. There were no citadels again, even at 12.5 km. HE (with fire adjustment) did 78k in 40 hits, with ~35k fire damage. There was not a single shattered HE shell.

Still, of course needs more testing, but so far it seems that if you're just going for consistent direct damage, AP is still better. Penetration is quite sufficient for most ships, but seems like citadels even on weakly armored BBs like NC are highly unlikely. With HE fire starting ability of the ship is not great, but all right after all. If you luck out with fire damage, you can out-perform mainly AP player in total damage numbers. If you don't luck out, then you may have a bad game. This play style has more RNG involved. 

I'll do a bit more testing, want to see it against Bis and Fuso, but as for me, I'l still stick to mostly AP with HE against angled BBs, but once I get 11th point on my captain, I'll invest it to Expert Marksman, This ship, and Lyon, most likely, can reap great benefits from it.

 

Edited by geser98

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On 3/25/2018 at 8:32 PM, Ivlerlin said:

There's also gun calibre to look at. Depending on ranges, HE is the more effective ammo option against a ship. And thanks to HE's aoe effects against some modules, if they're planning on brawling in secondary range they might be looking to gain the upper hand in that area; knocking out secondaries. 

Yeah knowing your gun pen range charts is helpful. Although on most of my BBs I do not bother switching between AP and HE. I just stick with AP since AP is great at slicing through armor and getting citadel or Ammo Magazines. Even if you are long range firing and might technically be to far out to breach the the hull armor, you can still get plunging fire hits through deck armor that then has chances of going through Citadel deck as well.

Just citadeled a GK BB with my Missouri at a range of 22km  few minutes ago, and normally German BBs do not get citadeled unless you get a shell to come in from high arc and down through decks.

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When playing Normandie I tend to stay AP all or most of the game.  In the games when I switch back and forth, however, I tend to get higher total damage per hit with HE when you add fire damage to the calculation.  If I'm aiming at a BB at long range who is keeping his bow toward me, I'll switch to HE just to mess with him. AP seems to devastate cruisers maybe 15-20% of the time.  But against USN cruisers tier 6 or above, if they are angling, I seem to have better luck with HE.  And I've actually had decent luck popping DDs with AP, when they get cocky and come around an island for a torp run, thinking I won't waste 13" shells on them.

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In the current situation (both meta and game mechanics), any non-RN BB loading AP going into an unknown situation is BY FAR the better choice. 

BB AP (even the 13.4", which is what the Normandie/Lyon mount) does VERY well against DDs of any sort, in any orientation. The exact same can be said against CAs, where it will very rarely run into a situation where it can't overmatch (mostly, T8+ CAs).  It's only issues are against BBs:  angled ones of any tier where it does struggle considerably, and higher-tier ones where it generally will very seldom citadel, with a higher percentage of shatters than other BBs.

The only reason you see Normandies (and any other non-RN BB, for that matter) throwing HE consistently is because the player doesn't know any better (ignorance, whether intentional or unintentional, is no way go through life).   AP will absolutely produce better results across the entire game. 

And, I'm sorry, it's not difficult to swap back and forth between HE and AP, given 30-second reload times to assess the situation. 

This is a player education issue, where WG doesn't provide good ways of communicating proper play to it's userbase, and the userbase is generally too lazy or uninformed to seek out the (not too difficult to find) places where the information exists.

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I probably Use HE in my bb's more than I probably should because of consistency reasons too. For every citadel and penetrating hit I get with ap, I probably get 20 or so overpens and bounces on shells that hit. It is beyond frustrating to see shells look like they hit a target at nice flat angle at the waterline and all you get are overpens and bounces. When that happens too often I just switch to HE and don enough damage with that and fires that I make up my difference.

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3 hours ago, GritiTheOdd said:

For every citadel and penetrating hit I get with ap, I probably get 20 or so overpens and bounces on shells that hit.

I can see these number being somewhat realistic only in the situation where you keep blasting AP at a bow-tanking BB. Otherwise, AP is more consistent. Obviously, here you need to know strengths and weaknesses of targets you're shooting at and aim accordingly. I mean, it's a bad idea to try and aim for waterline of KM or RN BBs. You won't get citadels and armor is strong enough that with 340 mm guns you'll get a lot of shatters or ricochets. On the other hand if you aim for upper belt armor, you won't see any bounces and such, unless target is very angled. 

On 4/2/2018 at 9:43 AM, EAnybody said:

It's only issues are against BBs:  angled ones of any tier where it does struggle considerably, and higher-tier ones where it generally will very seldom citadel, with a higher percentage of shatters than other BBs.

Also, yesterday in my Lyon I had 3 salvos straight into a broadside Richelieu at under 15 km and only got one or two overpens. Rest were bounces and non-pens. Not sure what's with her armor, but I just couldn't pen even aiming above water line. This doesn't happen with other heavy armored ships like Bis or Scharn.

 

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2 hours ago, geser98 said:

Also, yesterday in my Lyon I had 3 salvos straight into a broadside Richelieu at under 15 km and only got one or two overpens. Rest were bounces and non-pens. Not sure what's with her armor, but I just couldn't pen even aiming above water line. This doesn't happen with other heavy armored ships like Bis or Scharn.

Most likely, that was just RNGesus cursing you. Happens.  I put 3 salvos of AP from a North Carolina into a pure broadside LaGlass at 6km, aiming at the waterline. What did I get? Out of 27 shots, 13 overpens and 14 misses.  Really?  

There's nothing special about the Richelieu - it's covered in 32mm armor everywhere but the belt, so you should be penning (or at least overpen) when you hit it.  Probably won't ever citadel, though, no mater where you aim, and plunging fire won't get you a citadel either. The 340mm are just too weak for that unless you're at point-blank range.

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