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Helstrem

How to compensate for DDs in Operations

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I've noticed that if my team gets two or more DDs it becomes a struggle to do well, or in some cases even beat the operation. 

Last night we had two Farraguts on our team and our Cleveland managed to die in the first encounter.  The Farraguts dumped all of their torps at the first enemy DD to appear, which was of course long dead by the time those torps actually arrived.

I did fairly well until just after the CV started moving again after hiding behind an island when, as nobody was on the right flank, I tried to get over there to protect it and ate a couple torps.  I did not stick around to see the rest, but given the DDs had done little to help thus far I am guessing the Dunkerque and other Leander simply couldn't stop the ships on the right flank from overrunning and destroying the CV.

Prior run for me was in Warspite and resulted in 5 stars.  We had a single DD.

Run before that was Leander and we got 2 stars with two DDs.

Some time ago I did an Ultimate Frontier where we had four DDs.  The DDs were staying hidden, trying to torp the enemy ships and saying how useless the two cruisers were because we were getting killed by all the incoming fire.  Of course, because we only had two cruisers and all of the DDs were staying undetected all of the enemy was shooting at the cruisers, so not only were the DDs not contributing as much firepower, they also weren't helping divide up the enemy's shells and helping tank.

So, my question is, how best to handle having 2+ DDs on your team in an operation?  What do you do to compensate for them?

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That and the bots beat the torps anyway unless it's a BB and the DD is within 2 or 3 k and then it's even iffy. The torps also make the target turn from broadside to angled but it is that it is. If I don't get 15 citadels in the current operation I consider it a fail for my self. Just rebooted the computer and I am going to try the Arizona in this op for once.

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I played this scenario twice late last night.

Both teams were very good - one match featured a 4 ship division that knew exactly when to send a two ship break to intercept the west push as the CV goes "dead in the water".

Both matches resulted in five stars - neither had a DD on the team.

I think after a single play-through - DDs on the team just mean less competition for damage available to the rest - ha ha!

Edited by ddoubletapp1

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Carry harder, push  on the enemy, make it shoot you not the DD, support the dd

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6 minutes ago, CriMiNaL__ said:

Carry harder, push  on the enemy, make it shoot you not the DD, support the dd

Making it shoot you not the DD only works so far.  Once there are more DDs than not DDs it isn't viable.

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5 minutes ago, CriMiNaL__ said:

Carry harder, push  on the enemy, make it shoot you not the DD, support the dd

Pretty much this.

I usually take a gun boat out.  Last time was my Blys with Flamu and his chat.  I gave them all my smokes, spotted, torped, and gunboated.  5 stars.

Doing DD things isnt all about damage.

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3 minutes ago, Destroyer_KuroshioKai said:

Pretty much this.

I usually take a gun boat out.  Last time was my Blys with Flamu and his chat.  I gave them all my smokes, spotted, torped, and gunboated.  5 stars.

Doing DD things isnt all about damage.

I smoked using RN CL smoke.  DDs were too far ahead.  Not sure how much firing they were doing, most fire I saw was from myself, the Dunkerque and the other Leander.  Cleveland fired a lot in the short time he was with us.

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Spoiler

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Once again, folks just cannot seem to understand that there isn't a single problem with DD's.

 

And if you are going to tell me that it is not possible to 5 star an Op with no BB's and 3 DD's...

 

Spoiler

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shot-18_03.24_09_58.28-0906.thumb.jpg.6c0f82523569969a66817e7cb49abee9.jpg

 

 

You are sorely mistaken.

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4 minutes ago, Volron said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

shot-18_03.23_21_02.51-0382.thumb.jpg.8a624dbf7ea0d7b6f0aeb9f0ff6f607a.jpg

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shot-18_03.23_07_07.18-0854.thumb.jpg.d58fb48da5df1cd751fce9767830a772.jpg

 

Once again, folks just cannot seem to understand that there isn't a single problem with DD's.

 

And if you are going to tell me that it is not possible to 5 star an Op with no BB's and 3 DD's...

 

  Reveal hidden contents

shot-18_03.23_23_37.45-0130.thumb.jpg.3506f466ede2830d99932dfcac7963e3.jpg

shot-18_03.23_23_37.49-0710.thumb.jpg.343b83d1af18b7a76c235611eb89deab.jpg

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shot-18_03.24_09_58.28-0906.thumb.jpg.6c0f82523569969a66817e7cb49abee9.jpg

 

 

You are sorely mistaken.

Do it solo and come back and brag...

Not all of us division, not all of us have that option.

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And I'm in a division in which screenie precisely?  In which of the screenies have ANY division in them?

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11 minutes ago, Volron said:

And I'm in a division in which screenie precisely?  In which of the screenies have ANY division in them?

My mistake. Don't know what I thought I saw.

I did not, however claim that DDs cannot get 5 stars.  It does seem markedly harder though.

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Just did the operation half an hour ago, team was me in a De Grasse, a Cleveland, a Budyonnyy, an Aoba, and 3 DDs, Aigle, Farragut, and Gallant and we ended up with four stars only because we didn't get a ship into the exit before Raptor got there. Gallant was so close, and I was already sunk and telling the player, "Turn left! Turn left!" and a few others were urging him to get in the circle, but there was that one red Kongo left and the Gallant player was focused and turned right to get in the best firing position. So we missed a star, but considering we had no CV and no BBs at all, we did pretty good - You don't get any stars with a team like that if everyone doesn't contribute. I wish I'd taken a screen shot though: I had 192k damage and 4 kills on 19 citadels and a couple torp hits, my best damage output ever in a cruiser in any game mode. I was pretty happy.

Anyway, I've done a metric ton of Operations and destroyers generally pull their weight, I think.

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It just depends on the DD player. Maybe @Lightninger can post one of his 200K damage games in Ultimate Frontier, Narai, or Aegis here, he gets them regularly. I blush to report my best in Leningrad on Ultimate Frontier is a mere 171K. 

3 DDs can do it but they have to be aggressive in play and smart in positioning, and cooperate well. 

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Carrying a DD is no different than carrying any other class: you only have to do it if the player is incompetent. I can do pretty well on my Shinonome and Aigle on tier 6 Operations, and can easily do more damage in my Blyska than in a Pensacola, and boy how I miss the times when tier 5s were available and I could bring in my Okhotnik and deal lots of damage to everything. DDs are just as viable as any other class, as long as the people playing them know what they're doing. I tested the Gadjah on Ultimate Frontier in the PTS, and I was able to outgun both DDs at the start and sink the three BBs basically single-handedly, while the rest of the team derped around and died, resulting in a defeat. The right ships in the right hands are what brings victories, not the right ships alone.

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43 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

My mistake. Don't know what I thought I saw.

I did not, however claim that DDs cannot get 5 stars.  It does seem markedly harder though.

I can fully understand your frustration, BELIEVE me, this is why I almost always run CV's and DD's in Op's.  A majority of the time I see a CV or DD (when in my BB or CA especially), I do not expect much from them.

 

In RR, MOST CV's I run into either hit the BB, the DD or go straight for Haoto (S CV), ignoring Taka in that 1st wave.  This almost always results in one or more of the support ships eating a torpedo, and possibly a teammate or two.  Some also feed their planes to the Aoba's and Myoko's.  If it's critical (one of these types danger close to convoy), I can understand as I will do it as well.  Most of the time though, they are simply tossing their planes away with no real reason other than to try and get more damage in.   Also, I can count on one hand the times I've seen a CV scout the 2nd wave.  Scouting that 2nd wave (by sending your fighters far N to see if they spawned there, if you don't see them, they are spawning S) can really help.

The DD's I tend to see, keep getting themselves torpedoed, more often than not, from that 1st wave DD.  If not that, they get too far from the team and get focused, they don't back off and instead keep charging.  The results are almost always the same, sunk.

 

Yes, no CV/BB and 3 DD does mean it is more difficult, as you cannot afford to make many mistakes.  I'm not going to deny that, but honestly, I get excited when I see a team setup like that now.  I relish the challenge that it presents, ESPECIALLY when I'm in a DD.

 

Also, the 5 star thing wasn't directed at you, but a statement to everyone.  Should've worded it better.  I apologize for that.

 

21 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

3 DDs can do it but they have to be aggressive in play and smart in positioning, and cooperate well. 

But usually that isn't the case.  The 5 star 3 DD Gnevny screenie I posted, we lost 3 ships by the end of the 2nd wave, a DD and two CA's.  Mistress RNG smiled on the survivors, cept the other Gnevny.  He pissed her off later in that match...:Smile_hiding:

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To echo Taichunger, I would summon the Dread God of DD Operations Destruction, @Lightninger, to this thread.  Having that guy on your side is like having an invisible, 35kn BB.

Perhaps he will reveal some of his secrets.

 

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Interesting.  I was one of the Farragut's in that  operation with you.  I was still alive at the end of the match and ended in fifth place, but my damage was bad.  I've done fairly well in many operations with the Farragut, but this operation is not at all suited for a  DD.  Yes, two DDs does present an exceptional challenge.  That said;

1.  The first thing that happened was that you started screaming about having two dds on  the team.  It was unnecessary and frankly put everybody else off their game.

2.  The Cleveland, the best ship for that operation, tanked in  the first 30 seconds.  Probably because he didn't want to bother dealing with you.

You have a responsibility to your team.  Crying and whining is never helpful.  Next time , do you best.  If you excel under extreme circumstances you will learn more than an easy win.

 

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I agree that playing DD's in Operations can be more challenging. However, as @Volron has demonstrated, I do not think it's as bad as OP says. I've seen plenty of DD players in Operations who just mop the floor with bots, survive to the end, and even come out on top on occasion.

Let's face it, it's all up to each player. How well does the player understand his/her ship? How much does he/she understand about bot behaviors and the Operation details (such as the map, bot spawns, and such)?

It doesn't actually differ even if there were NO destroyers on your team. If your team isn't skilled, it's gonna be a struggle one way or another. Best you can do is to just do your best and make it to the end to at least get the mission success. I've had few occasion where we had no DD's and 5 or 6 BB's... and still lost because too many players yoloed and died too early.

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5 hours ago, Helstrem said:

So, my question is, how best to handle having 2+ DDs on your team in an operation?  What do you do to compensate for them?

My advice, be happy. Because if DDs die then all the work falls on the cruisers and the fastest ship alive. You get monster returns in DMG along with the rewards that come along with it. I also blame the DD drivers in your example, they should'nt treat Operations like regular battle. BOTs do dodge torps lol. Thank of it as a 5 ship operation rather then the full 7. IF the DDs know what they're doing its easy for everyone. IF not hold on to your britches, its going to get wild real fast. Cheers!

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Play to your best and hope the DDs do the same. That there are DDs in any given game doesn't mean much ~ Plenty of games without DDs in them will fail because the players of those ships are not upto spec ~ i have had to chase the blipping south CV on Raptor Rescue in a Warspite because not one of the rest of the team could be bothered to do it and my Division mate was in a even slower ship than me.

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I've been called on to answer this age old myth about destroyers being bad in operations again? How fun. Let's see what we can come up with here. I don't keep many screenshots any more otherwise I'd have easily 100+. I decided to just make an imgur account, figured it would be the easiest way to reference these.

Ultimate Frontier - Been top of the team several times with Leningrad, had a few 200k+ games, easily a number of 150k+ games as well

Spoiler

These are the experience and team screenshots of my highest damage record.
https://imgur.com/v3PcO1N
https://imgur.com/uaFZFi4

Replay: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/237861550

This is the experience screenshot to go with it.
https://imgur.com/YnCnG44


Narai - A few more 200k+ games than Frontier, a lot of 150k+ games

Spoiler

Highest run screenshots
https://imgur.com/RCAzVq0
https://imgur.com/weN1XJg

Here is a replay from another run:

 


Rescue Raptor - A couple 200k+ games which didn't get saved, don't run this one all that often.


Aegis

Spoiler

I don't have any personal run screenshots for this one. I lost my personal best of 239k damage due to accidentally saving over them. Also had other games with 234k, 224k, and a couple others over 200k. However, what I have is even better, as I had developed a tactic to do extra damage farming by purposely spawning the battleships. A couple of my operations division mates gave it a shot at being the destroyers with me coaching them, one of which wasn't confident in his destroyer skills. Here is the team screenshot from that game.

https://imgur.com/NwJTbf3

You don't need an expert destroyer player to do well in an operation at all.


Newport - Also don't run this one all that often.


Killer Whale

The number of times I have been top of the team in a destroyer as been easily 100+ times, and if you count more games where top three, it would be so many more. And actually @Helstrem, being in a competent division actually makes it harder to be top in a destroyer vs with a team of randoms. You have more chances to have bad teammates when solo, allowing you do more damage and have a better chance of being top. You just also have a greater chance to lose as well.

Edited by Lightninger
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To the OP's statement and question about 2 or more DDs in an operation scenario.

It doesn't matter how many DDs are on the team, only how good the players are that are in those DDs. And that really goes for any of the ships on your team in an operation battle, whether they be in a BB, CA, CL, CV, or DD. I've seen plenty of DD captains be the difference in completing the scenario with 5-stars or completing it successfully because of their competence, experience, and skill or a combination of the three.

I think a better question is, how do you compensate if you have two or more players who have never played the operation scenario before or even played an operation battle mode before?

If the majority of the seven players have never played that particular operation scenario before, it is going to be much more difficult to 5-star the operation because a lot of times, those other four to six players in addition to not knowing how the operation battle may not pay attention to the objectives or follow the directions of experienced players who have played the op already. I think the reason that a team doesn't 5-star an operation or complete it successfully is due more to having players who are inexperienced or have never played the op before more so than the makeup of ships on the team.

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On 3/24/2018 at 6:28 PM, Sovereigndawg said:

That and the bots beat the torps anyway 

The bots are apparently programmed to have complete map awareness at all times. I can line up a torpedo spread, while undetected at 10 km, and the instant I release it the bot begins to turn. Bot CVs also seem to know exactly where you are at all times. I once took off with a DD and went clear across the map undetected only to have a bot CV send planes directly to me when I got close to being within torpedo range. 

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19 hours ago, Lightninger said:

 

The number of times I have been top of the team in a destroyer as been easily 100+ times, and if you count more games where top three, it would be so many more. And actually @Helstrem, being in a competent division actually makes it harder to be top in a destroyer vs with a team of randoms. You have more chances to have bad teammates when solo, allowing you do more damage and have a better chance of being top. You just also have a greater chance to lose as well.

I div with @Lightninger and iDuckman above regularly to do operations. One thing that playing a DD well requires is knowing the operation -- which ships will be where, and when, and then assigning a role to yourself to exploit your ship's capabilities. On Raptor, for example, if I am in Buddy or Nurn or De Grasse I break off early and head south to kill the CV with @Lightninger. He knows exactly where the CV will stop and in a DD will always hit it with torps, making us both laugh. We finish the CV, then we kill the Kuma in a hail of cits, caulk the DD, and head back. 

That sort of knowledge of how the operation works is vital to making the DD shine. Mastering ops requires practice and goal setting, just like Randoms. It is just more fun in many ways, especially if you do it with a group of friends.

What happens is that random players don't know what they are doing and even if directed properly, often can't execute. That is just as  true of cruiser players and BB players as it is with DDs. It is just more obvious when the DD screws up because it doesn't have the HP to survive its errors.

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