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CriMiNaL__

CA's need some lovin

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To begin with I do not play CA's at all, except in the scenarios.

But what I have noticed, is 5 DD and 7 BB or 6 BB and 1 CA.

I do realise with the french line there are a lot of players grinding them up but where are all the CA players.

So my question is this

What do you guys (CA players) need in terms of refinement in the game for you.  We always hear of BB or DD (complaining mostly), but hardly anything about CA's at all.

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High Tier CA are good, and at Tier X, they are even better than BBs.

The reason I don’t play them is not that they are weak, but because they are boring to play. I play DD because it’s engaging and exciting, even if they are the weakest class at high tiers. My favorite CA is Pensacola, and you know why. 

Maybe there are many players who are similar to me, who does not like tossing HE and starting fires and wear down an enemy.

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1 hour ago, CriMiNaL__ said:

To begin with I do not play CA's at all, except in the scenarios.

But what I have noticed, is 5 DD and 7 BB or 6 BB and 1 CA.

I do realise with the french line there are a lot of players grinding them up but where are all the CA players.

So my question is this

What do you guys (CA players) need in terms of refinement in the game for you.  We always hear of BB or DD (complaining mostly), but hardly anything about CA's at all.

In what context are you referring to? Randoms or operations?

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1 hour ago, CriMiNaL__ said:

To begin with I do not play CA's at all, except in the scenarios.

But what I have noticed, is 5 DD and 7 BB or 6 BB and 1 CA.

I do realise with the french line there are a lot of players grinding them up but where are all the CA players.

So my question is this

What do you guys (CA players) need in terms of refinement in the game for you.  We always hear of BB or DD (complaining mostly), but hardly anything about CA's at all.

I  play mostly CAs, I don’t really need anything...we or Me I guess I should say have had there day in the sun to whine and complain about Big Bad BBS,Torps or invisa fire when I Thought I new it all .. but didn’t and still don’t .. so other than some better MM occasionaly...I’m happy here having fun learning how to avoid the many many traps that as a newbie never saw coming  but now it’s just second nature to avoid so if I get obliterated it’s rarely that my spidy Sences aren’t tingling  it’s just that now I know when I’m taking that dangerous chance

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2 hours ago, Plaatduutsch said:

High Tier CA are good, and at Tier X, they are even better than BBs.

The reason I don’t play them is not that they are weak, but because they are boring to play. I play DD because it’s engaging and exciting, even if they are the weakest class at high tiers. My favorite CA is Pensacola, and you know why. 

Maybe there are many players who are similar to me, who does not like tossing HE and starting fires and wear down an enemy.

Lol Graf Spee has great AP, Torps, a heal, and is so much fun lol.

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18 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Lol Graf Spee has great AP, Torps, a heal, and is so much fun lol.

Honestly, I don't enjoy the Spee much.  While its large guns are great for hammering BBs and other cruisers, they're terrible VS DDs, because you have too few guns and too long a reload time to be an effective DD hunter, which frankly is one of a cruiser's primary jobs.

 

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3 hours ago, CriMiNaL__ said:

To begin with I do not play CA's at all, except in the scenarios.

But what I have noticed, is 5 DD and 7 BB or 6 BB and 1 CA.

I do realise with the french line there are a lot of players grinding them up but where are all the CA players.

So my question is this

What do you guys (CA players) need in terms of refinement in the game for you.  We always hear of BB or DD (complaining mostly), but hardly anything about CA's at all.

I really ought to keep a copy of this somewhere.

I don't think that cruisers really need any directly loving, per se.  However, MM could stand to be tweaked in a couple of ways that would help cruisers indirectly.

Tweak #1:  There is currently an obvious soft limit on the number of BBs and DDs per team of 5 each.  I say "soft limit" because on occasion (usually a queue dump), you'll see battles where there are more than 5 BBs or DDs on a team.  What I suggest is reducing this soft limit from 5 to 4 for both DDs and BBs.  This wouldn't outright prevent more than 4 BBs and/or 4 DDs per team, but you'd have to reach whatever threshold that MM currently passes to trigger exceeding the soft limit.

 

Tweak #2: WoWS' MM should take a page from the WoT MM, which makes certain that the bottom tier in any battle always has more tanks than the mid or top tier.  There are 3 possible options that WoT's MM gets to choose from, depending on what's in the queue at any given moment.  For WoWS, it could look like this.  (Assume a tier 10 battle.)

Option #1: Same tier MM:  All ships would be tier 10.

Option #2: +/-1 tier MM: 4 tier 10 ships and 8 tier 9 ships.

Option #3: +/-2 tier MM: 2 tier 10 ships, 4 tier 9 ships, and 6 tier 8 ships.

With this model, ships in the bottom tier will always be plentiful and top tier ships will be smaller in number than the lower tier ships on each team.  And all 3 options are necessary because you never really know what the state of the MM queue will be from moment to moment, and MM needs to be able to choose whichever one best fits the current queue.

This may or may not exactly benefit cruisers directly, but it certainly would benefit bottom tier cruisers if there weren't so many higher tier ships on the enemy team to smack them silly.

 

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Tier 8 CAs should always be top tier since they don't have a heal yet. Facing tier 10 BBs with no heal is problematic.

 

 

 

 

Edited by CaptainTeddybear
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3 hours ago, SithSteel said:

In what context are you referring to? Randoms or operations?

Randoms, as far as operations go, its the only time I ever use one, but that's me

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You don't see a lot of CAs in operations because CLs sort of rock there. You do see lots of CAs in high-tier Random games. Perhaps not as many as DDs and BBs but most seem to like to play these ships. Personally, after unlocking the Gearing I like it so much that I wouldn't even play anything else were it not for the fact that it loses credits most of the time and I have to play mid-tier games in a Premium ship or my Cleveland to build them back up. 

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18 minutes ago, CaptainTeddybear said:

Tier 8 CAs should always be top tier since they don;t have a heal yet. Facing tier 10 BBs with no heal is problematic.

Not for Wargaming it isn't. They would rather you keep playing and not stop at T8. This gives you "incentive". Tired of getting beat down? Tier ten is top tier every game! Try it!!! Peer Pressure!!! Ahhh!

Where it bothers me is that WG has sold so many T8 premiums for a MM that is trash levels amounts of fun most of the time. I wanted Kidd this last release but the reality of its matchmaking made it a no buy this time.

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Honestly, what cruisers need is a guaranteed number of them per match.  Let's say 4 or 5.  A heal starting at tier 6 would also be most welcome.

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Echoing other sentiments, in hopes WG is listening, that cruisers T6 to T8 could use a modicum of a heal. Nothing crazy like RN super heal, just something to increase survivability a bit.

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IMO, in general cruisers are fine and competitive. 

 

The reason we often see few of them is because they are hard to play, cruisers are the hardest ships to play in game.

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Cruisers just need a few less BB in each match and I'm sure you'd see a population rebound of sorts. The pressure of having a BB able to get a firing solution on you from every angle while also enjoying the graces of overmatch is certainly a factor in people eschewing Cruiser play for other types. I know I am not excited about the prospect of grinding mid tier cruisers to "finally" get to the good ones at the end. That's a lot of pain for the XP gain for many people.

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Cruisers are hard for a lot of people because they are so easily removed due to moments of carelessness.  You can make a mistake in BBs and maybe walk away with a citadel or a torpedo or two.  Big mistakes end all ships sure, but casual moments of inattentiveness (not noticing that spotted marker and failing to prepare for torps, or not noticing that aim counter being at two and that other BB off to your broadside aiming at you) usually only ends in massive damage to the tune of a citadel or two for pretty much any non CV ship class.  A BB has the health pool to take that kind of damage.  It hurts, no doubt, but it's something like 20-50% damage total.  A dd will take overpen damage to about the same damage.  They're more fragile sure and it sucks in terms of limiting your future potential but you're probably still alive. 

CAs get the worst of it.  They get citadeled from just about any direction, and moments of inattentiveness aren't just bad, they're often fatal.  A CA can't take two cits with out literally dying or losing 90% health.  Cits aren't always alone, either, they're often accompanied by random other pens or overpens, and the net damage is often immediate death.  That makes it hard for people who don't CA a lot to accept.  

CAs often also are played incorrectly.  People don't know what to do with them.  They charge in (which is bad), or they are too far away to be of much use which is unfortunate because it will often be the death of the teams dds as a result, and so generally a loss.  Either you die if you move up or you lose if you don't.  

It's not that they need buffs, they need player education telling people what to do with them, because honestly, they're hard to figure out.

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8 hours ago, CriMiNaL__ said:

To begin with I do not play CA's at all, except in the scenarios.

So my question is this

What do you guys (CA players) need in terms of refinement in the game for you.  

Why don't you play cruisers? That might be a good place to start, assuming you have reasons that aren't just personal preference.

Only thing I could really think of is maybe a bit of a range buff for some CAs, and maybe a bit more survivability, maybe remove the citadel under the turrets on CAs.

Other than that, I'm pretty happy with CAs.

As far as how to get the masses to play them more, I dunno how you'd do that.

Maybe WG could institute some kind of credit bonus, like a handicap. Most played ship gets no bonus, next most played gets +5%, then +10%, then +15% for the least played class. I realise that this would likely give CVs the highest bonus, but hopefully players that aren't playing CVs now would realise that +10%  in a ship they don't do all that great in is better than +15% in a ship they get shut down in if they can't play decently.

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56 minutes ago, Xlap said:

 

The reason we often see few of them is because they are hard to play, cruisers are the hardest ships to play in game.

Personally I disagree, I find DDs much harder to play. 

Assuming you're correct in general though, that can be a problem. Many want to see fewer BBs. If steps are taken to remedy that, and people play fewer BBs, we'll just end up with a DD overpopulation.

Not that I have an issue with where cruisers are, but if you want BBs to be played less, and not result in an overpopulation of DDs, it seems the only solution would be to make cruisers easier to play than BBs.

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5 hours ago, Crucis said:

effective DD hunter

Few cruisers are effective DD hunters, most of them dont have the speed, concealment or both to hunt DDs. 

5 hours ago, Crucis said:

which frankly is one of a cruiser's primary jobs.

This is not true for most cruisers in the game and what get most of them killed. 

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Bad DD players who should not play DDs because they lack the courage and brains to do it are always complaining about cruisers.  A cruiser that can't facerape a DD and destroy it is not a very good cruiser.  It's what they are good at in game and what they were designed to do irl.  When someone starts kvetching and wringing their hands about radar I know that I am hearing the mewling of a coward who is inferior to me in every way.

It's still a toss up whether a bad cruiser or a bad DD is worse for your team.  I lean towards cruisers, most of the time.  Although caps are important, the versatility of a cruiser is what makes it so valuable.  When I see one being useless or being used for only one thing, it makes me think of someone with a swiss army knife who is only using one of its blades.

Edited by Bolo_MkXX_Tremendous_DMD

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5 hours ago, Pope_Shizzle said:

Honestly, what cruisers need is a guaranteed number of them per match.  Let's say 4 or 5.  A heal starting at tier 6 would also be most welcome.

Shizzle, read my post above about MM tweaks, and I think that you'd find an idea that would accomplish this without any hard limits.

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5 hours ago, CriMiNaL__ said:

Randoms, as far as operations go, its the only time I ever use one, but that's me

Personally, I think cruisers are quite hard to play effectively. They're squishy, sometimes move like a rock, and are often times not overly stealthy or fast. You can't just hide behind some smoke and run like a destroyer or soak up damage like a battleship. More than any other ship type, you have to be smart when you play in a cruiser. 

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6 minutes ago, Bolo_MkXX_Tremendous_DMD said:

Bad DD players who should not play DDs because they lack the courage and brains to do it are always complaining about cruisers.  A cruiser that can't facerape a DD and destroy it is not a very good cruiser.  It's what they are good at in game and what they were designed to do irl.  When someone starts kvetching and wringing their hands about radar I know that I am hearing the mewling of a coward who is inferior to me in every way.

It's still a toss up whether a bad cruiser or a bad DD is worse for your team.  I lean towards cruisers, most of the time.  Although caps are important, the versatility of a cruiser is what makes it so valuable.  When I see one being useless or being used for only one thing, it makes me think of someone with a swiss army knife who is only using one of its blades.

I agree that it'd be nice if weaker players wouldn't play DDs.  But it's not always because of a lack of courage.  Sometimes they have more courage than brains, and do  dumb things that get themselves killed far too quickly.

As for saying that a  cruiser that can't wipe out a DD being a bad cruiser (presumably player), I disagree.  I'd adjust this to say that a LIGHT cruiser (or high tier CA's with very high rates of fire) player who can't wipe out a DD isn't that good a player.  Most heavy cruisers, OTOH, don't really have the rate of fire to wipe out DDs all that easily, which is why CL's are generally better DD hunters.  That said, CA's can be good at damaging DDs and hurting them badly.  Their problem comes when the DD decides to make a run for it and the CA just doesn't have the RoF/reload rate to get the dead before it escapes.

As for your comment about radar, just stop.  You're making yourself look like a moron.  The first rule of DD play is to survive.  And you don't do that by taking stupid chances, which includes making stupid decisions when in the vicinity of a radar ship whose radar isn't on cooldown.

As for the tossup, oh, that one's easy.  Bad DDs are the bane of any team.  If your team loses all its DDs while the enemy team keeps all of its DDs, you're in a world of hurt.

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3 minutes ago, SithSteel said:

Personally, I think cruisers are quite hard to play effectively. They're squishy, sometimes move like a rock, and are often times not overly stealthy or fast. You can't just hide behind some smoke and run like a destroyer or soak up damage like a battleship. More than any other ship type, you have to be smart when you play in a cruiser. 

I don't think that cruisers are THAT hard to play effectively.  The problem is that too many players insist on trying to take them in close and using them like BBs, when it's clear that the best way to use most cruisers effectively is as long range kiters.  Furthermore, if you've ever played DD, particularly Russian run and gun sniping DDs, then you actually have the experience to play cruisers well.  Do the same thing, just at the edge of the cruiser's gun range, which is obviously going to be greater than a DD's.  Snipe at long range, usually spamming HE, and pay attention to whomever is shooting at you and dodge like crazy when the enemy shoots at you.  And if you've taken Priority Target skill, if you start to be targeted by too many enemies, you need to go dark and reposition, so that you're not quite such a popular target when you start to fire again.

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