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Sventex

Richelieu Turrets Too Fragile?

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So this just happened to me.  A 15" shell from a TIrpitz, at 13km landed a shell dead on the front turret face of my Richelieu and destroyed it, killing the Richelieu already low DPM.  I had taken every precaution to prevent losing a turret, "Main Battery Mod 1" and "Preventive Maintenance", while also taking care to have the turret's thickest armor face the incoming fire, and all still was not enough.  What's strange is that these same precautions are what I use on the Dunkerque, and in 196 Battles I've had with her, I've NEVER lost a turret.  

5VJpysH.jpg

Tipritz at 13km

Spoiler

U8bs0YK.jpg

Skills and Mods if anyone doubts me

Spoiler

rkfFnxr.jpg

Now, I've seen Armada, I know the Tirpitz has incredible penetration, but I've fought tier 8 ships plenty of times in my Dunkerque, and have never lost a turret, so why does my Richelieu turret, with it's extra armor seem weaker?

PjVQFeP.jpg

1m5d1G6.png

 

I've played the Bismarck agressively just about a 100 times, and even against Yamatos, I've never lost a turret, and those guns have far weaker armor, and my German Captain didn't even have Preventative Maintenance.  Something is not right here. 

j419zw4.jpg

 

Has anyone encountered this issue, where they take every precaution on the Richelieu to avoid losing a turret, and it still happens?  The Richelieu historically had special functionality that made them extra durable, because they were really two turrets sharing the same barrette.  But in game, they seem extra vulnerable?  Is this a bug?  Poor balance?  Thoughts anyone?

20180323_203532_PFSB108-Richelieu_16_OC_bees_to_honey.wowsreplay

Edited by Sventex

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Unlucky RNG, that's all there is to it.

  • Cool 2

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5 minutes ago, Kousatsu said:

Unlucky RNG, that's all there is to it.

Actually I read this not long ago.  I wonder if it’s a pattern.

 

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When I shoot a Rich, I aim for the turrets with 16 inch AP. One time I ko'd both turrets of a Rich from about 8 km, then he ran aground no doubt distracted. I won that duel. Since then I rarely ko a turret, because I suspect everyone is running preventive maintenance and main battery upgrade 1, but I have ko'd at least 1 turret one other time. Try it without upgrades and see how they do, I'm guessing people aim for the turrets. I get turrets ko'd all the time on my NC and Gas can, admittedly it's usually by tier x ships. I think the Iowa too. All have preventive maintenance and main battery upgrade 1. Also in recent weeks there has been a penetration bug, so this might be another side of the citadel bug. I hope not, otherwise there'll be no incentive at all to not aim for the waterline. And rng being king of the game mechanics, aim has little to do with where shells hit anyway.

So yeah, if you're bow camping in the Rich, expect people to aim for the turrets.

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10 minutes ago, 44_percenter said:

When I shoot a Rich, I aim for the turrets with 16 inch AP. One time I ko'd both turrets of a Rich from about 8 km, then he ran aground no doubt distracted. I won that duel. Since then I rarely ko a turret, because I suspect everyone is running preventive maintenance and main battery upgrade 1, but I have ko'd at least 1 turret one other time. Try it without upgrades and see how they do, I'm guessing people aim for the turrets. I get turrets ko'd all the time on my NC and Gas can, admittedly it's usually by tier x ships. I think the Iowa too. All have preventive maintenance and main battery upgrade 1. Also in recent weeks there has been a penetration bug, so this might be another side of the citadel bug. I hope not, otherwise there'll be no incentive at all to not aim for the waterline. And rng being king of the game mechanics, aim has little to do with where shells hit anyway.

So yeah, if you're bow camping in the Rich, expect people to aim for the turrets.

Well I wasn’t bow camping, I was chasing a Tirpitz that was trying to run away.  Naturally you have to point the ship at the enemy.  Now I’m wondering if I have to angle the turrets against incoming fire cause their so fragile.  I’ve never had to think about this before.

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In my experience, there is no doubt about it - the Richelieu turrets are vulnerable.  On the Public Test Server I managed to lose both turrets permanently, and have single turrets permanently several times in the 20 or so matches on the live server.  In one of those matches, an allied Richelieu also permanently lost both turrets.  The rate at which Richelieu turrets are destroyed feels considerably higher than other battleships.

Edited by CuriousShadow

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32 minutes ago, Sventex said:

Actually I read this not long ago.  I wonder if it’s a pattern.

 

Richelieu turret breaks are going to be more public as it's 50% of your firepower gone so of course people are going to talk about it and not the single turret Iowa break.

 

Just a meme I'm afraid and you got had.

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2 minutes ago, Kousatsu said:

Richelieu turret breaks are going to be more public as it's 50% of your firepower gone so of course people are going to talk about it and not the single turret Iowa break.

 

Just a meme I'm afraid and you got had.

Well, for one, I've played the Iowa a bunch, and I've never lost a turret.

Edited by Sventex

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Just now, Sventex said:

Well, for one, I've played the Iowa a bunch, and I've never lost a turret.  

I have a few times.

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While they're not particularly badly armed Richelieu's turrets are broad and therefore pretty big targets.

I'm not sure how much HP they have or if it's larger than normal to compensate. I believe Grosser Kuerfurst's turret HP is double normal as they're fat targets with poor armor - so there would be a case for increasing Richelieu's turret HP.

It is possible to exploit it, especially as a Richelieu is likely to be in a bow-on posture without having to wiggle to bring rear turrets in, inviting more turret hits. I've done it on purpose -

UHgweDM.png

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6 minutes ago, mofton said:

While they're not particularly badly armed Richelieu's turrets are broad and therefore pretty big targets.

I'm not sure how much HP they have or if it's larger than normal to compensate. I believe Grosser Kuerfurst's turret HP is double normal as they're fat targets with poor armor - so there would be a case for increasing Richelieu's turret HP.

It is possible to exploit it, especially as a Richelieu is likely to be in a bow-on posture without having to wiggle to bring rear turrets in, inviting more turret hits. I've done it on purpose -

UHgweDM.png

Well the Richelieu turrets are basically two dual turrets in one barbette, so having double health would make sense.  Plus the balance issue, the Richelieu has such wonky dispersion that having 4 guns isn't even enough to score hits at close range.  I remember in another thread talking about Concealment Expert, that "required" skills are bad game design, but this goes beyond the issue.  Not only is Preventative Maintenance and Main Battery Mod 1 Mandatory, it's not even enough.

Edited by Sventex

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It's still rng. Not like we can hit anything in this game on purpose, even less so a little turret. Any shot over 6 km, or maybe not even that far, is a complete [edited] shoot where it will hit. I always try to aim for Rich's turrets, and since the public test I've ko'd one Rich's turret one time. It may be that the turrets are weaker to compensate for the Rich being able to fire all guns without having to angle at all. Turn the Lyon enough to fire that fourth turret, and you risk being deleted. Anyway, this gives me hope that I can succeed in my strategy of knocking out Rich's guns in a duel.

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25 minutes ago, 44_percenter said:

It's still rng. Not like we can hit anything in this game on purpose, even less so a little turret. Any shot over 6 km, or maybe not even that far, is a complete [edited] shoot where it will hit. I always try to aim for Rich's turrets, and since the public test I've ko'd one Rich's turret one time. It may be that the turrets are weaker to compensate for the Rich being able to fire all guns without having to angle at all. Turn the Lyon enough to fire that fourth turret, and you risk being deleted. Anyway, this gives me hope that I can succeed in my strategy of knocking out Rich's guns in a duel.

If it was just incapacitates the turret, it would be a valid tactic to prevent bow camping.  But total destruction of the turrets?  The Richelieu's damage output drops to tier 3 levels cause the guns aren't accurate enough to score hits, that's unbalanced.

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I have heard nothing but how the 'Rich' kid on the block is nothing short of a beast; that's from those playing her. If there is a weakness to her play that is good to know.

A DD will inevitably use half the Captain points on survival alone  (PM, LS, SE, CE), then there are more and more that end up having to use extra Captain skills that will make them playable: EM because their gun traverse is slower than Cruisers lol, or IFHE in order to get a good ship (Harekaze).

 

Or to put it another way let's look at other ships in her tier before we look at one that sits:

8 out of 37 for WR

3 out of 37 for Damage (2nd in last 2 weeks)

3 out of 37 for XP (2nd in last 2 weeks)

9 out of 37 for K/D (6th in last 2 weeks)

6 out of 37 for Avg Kills (3rd in last 2 weeks)

and 18 out of 37 for survival (Hooray not actually in the top 10 for something!). :Smile_teethhappy: (Oh 15th in last 2 weeks! :Smile_smile:)

Edited by _WaveRider_

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5 minutes ago, _WaveRider_ said:

I have heard nothing but how the 'Rich' kid on the block is nothing short of a beast; that's from those playing her. If there is a weakness to her play that is good to know.

A DD will inevitably use half the Captain points on survival alone  (PM, LS, SE, CE), then there are more and more that end up having to use extra Captain skills that will make them playable: EM because their gun traverse is slower than Cruisers lol, or IFHE in order to get a good ship (Harekaze).

 

Or to put it another way let's look at other ships in her tier before we look at one that sits:

8 out of 37 for WR

3 out of 37 for Damage (2nd in last 2 weeks)

3 out of 37 for XP (2nd in last 2 weeks)

9 out of 37 for K/D (6 in last 2 weeks)

6 out of 37 for Avg Kills (3rd in last 2 weeks)

and 18 out of 37 for survival (Hooray not actually in the top 10 for something!). :Smile_teethhappy: (Oh 15th in last 2 weeks! :Smile_smile:)

I suspect the campaign requiring lots of tier 8-10 French Battleship play might be fudging the numbers.

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7 minutes ago, Sventex said:

I suspect the campaign requiring lots of tier 8-10 French Battleship play might be fudging the numbers.

Not really, as the number of players will include those bad players along with the good; whatever ships it faces, the Rich kid's results speak volumes.

You could also say the fact that the French BBs are new, also has an effect on results - due to the new ships not being familiar with most of those who play her, they will probably improve(?)

Edited by _WaveRider_

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Just now, _WaveRider_ said:

Not really, as the number of players will include those bad players along with the good; whatever ships they face, the Rich kid's results speak volumes.

You could also say the fact that the French BBs are new, also has an effect on results - due to the new ships not being familiar with most of those who play her, they will probably improve(?)

Unless they got the Personal Mission, I don't think bad players would have reached the Richelieu yet.

Edited by Sventex

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Just now, Sventex said:

Unless they got the Personal Mission, I don't think bad players would have reached the Richelieu yet.

You don't think 'some' (?) unskilled players out there have the Richelieu; I'm happy to admit that may be the case, however with the current stats available (and comparing her results with other ships) it really does not look as though she has any real issues across the board. :Smile_Default:

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Just now, _WaveRider_ said:

You don't think 'some' (?) unskilled players out there have the Richelieu; I'm happy to admit that may be the case, however with the current stats available (and comparing her results with other ships) it really does not look as though she has any real issues across the board. :Smile_Default:

I think the turrets are an issue, there's no way to prevent turret destruction, which severely hampers player engagement.  If there needs to be a weakness, it should be elsewhere.  LWM already rated the ship a "Mehboat".

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6 minutes ago, Sventex said:

I think the turrets are an issue, there's no way to prevent turret destruction, which severely hampers player engagement.  If there needs to be a weakness, it should be elsewhere.  LWM already rated the ship a "Mehboat".

A Mehboat that sits in 2nd place for damage - that's pretty good if it's turrets keep getting destroyed(?) - and, as you say, if more people are playing it because of the missions wouldn't that damage be reflected in the fact that the turrets keep blowing up? (39,000+ games). Doesn't add up.

I can list a whole line that has pish damage - we could have a look at how that is affecting all those player's 'engagement'. :Smile_Default:

(Got to go shopping now, so will be unable to reply for a while :Smile_honoring:)

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3 minutes ago, _WaveRider_ said:

A Mehboat that sits in 2nd place for damage - that's pretty good if it's turrets keep getting destroyed(?) - and, as you say, if more people are playing it because of the missions wouldn't that damage be reflected in the fact that the turrets keep blowing up? (39,000+ games). Doesn't add up.

I can list a whole line that has pish damage - we could have a look at how that is affecting all those player's 'engagement'. :Smile_Default:

(Got to go shopping now, so will be unable to reply for a while :Smile_honoring:)

Not having guns is going to effect player "engagement" far more then having weak guns.

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36 minutes ago, _WaveRider_ said:

A Mehboat that sits in 2nd place for damage - that's pretty good if it's turrets keep getting destroyed(?) - and, as you say, if more people are playing it because of the missions wouldn't that damage be reflected in the fact that the turrets keep blowing up? (39,000+ games). Doesn't add up.

I can list a whole line that has pish damage - we could have a look at how that is affecting all those player's 'engagement'. :Smile_Default:

(Got to go shopping now, so will be unable to reply for a while :Smile_honoring:)

 

I've lost both turrets before as well, and more than once. More than two-three times, even, which is impressive considering how long the ship has been out. And I've got preventive maintenance, too. Unfortunately I didn't take screenshots.

It's annoying AF, though. The only ship that I lose main battery on more often than Richelieu is Khab.

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TLDR:  French 15" turrets, barbettes have a lot of surface area to hit.

 

I've had this problem for Richelieu and Alsace turrets.  They are the same, after all.  I think the problem is the size.  Look at how big, wide they are, how much space on the deck they take compared to the narrower Bismarck turrets.

 

Now, here's the fun part.  Richelieu's turret faces are thicker than North Carolina's, and are roughly equivalent in angle.  430mm vs 406mm.  The turret barbettes they sit on are close, 406mm vs 405mm.  But Richelieu's barbettes are also relatively tall.

 

Forward angle, North Carolina - Pretty well protected, IMO.  Note that NC has a tall No.2 barbette, but it's also shielded by the No.1 turret.  Unless you catch NC at the sides, you're not really striking the No.2 barbette, especially the shorter the range gets.

JpBVV7r.jpg

Forward angle, Richelieu - Look at all that area to hit.

3VS4Qqm.jpg

Same thing, Alsace.

JGGEZ84.jpg

 

If you really want to screw with a French Tier VIII-IX BB that is trying to brawl with you, slot your AP shells and aim right in between the area between the bottom of the No.2 turret, above the No.1 turret.  You'll punish them heavily and strip their firepower.  Gas Can is of course different because of her turret arrangement.

 

The problem for the French BBs these tiers is not in the thickness of the barbettes and turret faces, nor the angle of the turret faces.  It's just there's so much surface area to smash with AP.  I haven't had this problem with Republique.  She has an angled 590mm turret face (compared to LOL 381mm of vertical face on 419 Conqueror) and 560mm barbette.  She has the Gas Can / Graf Spee turret setup and her turrets aren't sitting atop tall barbettes.  NC has thinner turret faces than Richelieu, yet you don't really get complaints that NC turrets get KO'd easily.

 

Anyways, I've complained quite a bit of how those French 15s get KO'd frequently. 

The worst time I had was my Richelieu brawling with a smart Missouri player in sub-10km ranges.  MO wasn't stupid and protected his sides, used islands to prevent me from maneuvering for side shots while he reversed (the setting is the Cap A area of Islands of Ice).  I'm trying to do hits and damage, even resorting to HE to set fires and AP into the turrets.  But MO AP at that range was ripping my turrets apart and he outright destroyed my No.2 turret.  If I didn't have help I'd have been focked.  4x 381mm guns vs a bow on Missouri with 6 406mm guns and American Piercing Shells?  HELL NO! :Smile_teethhappy:

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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1 hour ago, Sventex said:

Not having guns is going to effect player "engagement" far more then having weak guns.

:Smile_teethhappy: Hmmm, lets look at that statement and the state of the game....Your ship that sits at 2nd in tier for damage, with guns that are blown up so much you feel it needs changing to assist with 'player engagement', STILL does better than the guns for every other ship but one in the tier! The stats really don't support your statement.

1 hour ago, LT_Rusty_SWO said:

 

I've lost both turrets before as well, and more than once. More than two-three times, even, which is impressive considering how long the ship has been out. And I've got preventive maintenance, too. Unfortunately I didn't take screenshots.

It's annoying AF, though. The only ship that I lose main battery on more often than Richelieu is Khab.

Yet even with your losses, the Rich kid sits 2nd in the tier for damage....imagine what it would be like if it didn't lose those guns every once in a while; wow!

However, I've made my point and if you think there is something wrong with a ships  guns (a ship that sits in 2nd place in its tier for damage), then that's your prerogative to think so. :Smile_honoring:

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1 hour ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

TLDR:  French 15" turrets, barbettes have a lot of surface area to hit.

 

I've had this problem for Richelieu and Alsace turrets.  They are the same, after all.  I think the problem is the size.  Look at how big, wide they are, how much space on the deck they take compared to the narrower Bismarck turrets.

 

Now, here's the fun part.  Richelieu's turret faces are thicker than North Carolina's, and are roughly equivalent in angle.  430mm vs 406mm.  The turret barbettes they sit on are close, 406mm vs 405mm.  But Richelieu's barbettes are also relatively tall.

 

Forward angle, North Carolina - Pretty well protected, IMO.  Note that NC has a tall No.2 barbette, but it's also shielded by the No.1 turret.  Unless you catch NC at the sides, you're not really striking the No.2 barbette, especially the shorter the range gets.

JpBVV7r.jpg

Forward angle, Richelieu - Look at all that area to hit.

3VS4Qqm.jpg

Same thing, Alsace.

JGGEZ84.jpg

 

If you really want to screw with a French Tier VIII-IX BB that is trying to brawl with you, slot your AP shells and aim right in between the area between the bottom of the No.2 turret, above the No.1 turret.  You'll punish them heavily and strip their firepower.  Gas Can is of course different because of her turret arrangement.

 

The problem for the French BBs these tiers is not in the thickness of the barbettes and turret faces, nor the angle of the turret faces.  It's just there's so much surface area to smash with AP.  I haven't had this problem with Republique.  She has an angled 590mm turret face (compared to LOL 381mm of vertical face on 419 Conqueror) and 560mm barbette.  She has the Gas Can / Graf Spee turret setup and her turrets aren't sitting atop tall barbettes.  NC has thinner turret faces than Richelieu, yet you don't really get complaints that NC turrets get KO'd easily.

 

Anyways, I've complained quite a bit of how those French 15s get KO'd frequently. 

The worst time I had was my Richelieu brawling with a smart Missouri player in sub-10km ranges.  MO wasn't stupid and protected his sides, used islands to prevent me from maneuvering for side shots while he reversed (the setting is the Cap A area of Islands of Ice).  I'm trying to do hits and damage, even resorting to HE to set fires and AP into the turrets.  But MO AP at that range was ripping my turrets apart and he outright destroyed my No.2 turret.  If I didn't have help I'd have been focked.  4x 381mm guns vs a bow on Missouri with 6 406mm guns and American Piercing Shells?  HELL NO! :Smile_teethhappy:

The Alsace too! Well it's true that it does sit worse in its tier in relation to the 2nd place Rich for damage - yes, the Alsace sits at 3rd place behind the Musashi and Taiho for damage; those guns really need fixing. :Smile_smile:

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