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Corsair_I

Game cheating in Co-Op mode

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It is such a pain to play Co-Op in a destroyer. No matter how unpredictable you can be, the bots miraculously know when torps are coming to them and dodge them. Also, yesterday, I have a battleship chasing me although I was not visible. It was funny to see the bot constantly pointing the bow at my destroyer no matter how I position my ship compared to him.

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Well.. they are bots and they do know what's going on as they are quite literally part of the game. WG did dumb them down so.. /shrug

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Otherwise, Coop mode would be a snooze fest.

Bot don't use things like radar or hydro, because they can already see all the ships and torpedoes at all time. They simply don't need it.

Still, that doesn't mean you can't hit bots with torpedoes, ever. You just gotta adopt and be quite more skillful and aggressive to land torpedo hits. Note that I italicized the word "skillful," because if you be just aggressive without much thought, you'll just end up doing a yolo suicide rush. Not fun at all. Anyhow, don't expect to fire torps at max range while concealed, hoping to ambush them. That stuff only works in Random. In Coop, you gotta make sure that bots can't do anything even if they see your torps as they enter the water. Such as: (1) firing at close range where they don't have enough time to maneuver, (2) firing at narrow spaces where they have no room to maneuver, and/or (3) taking advantage of their predictable behavior to force them into your torps.

I'm not good with torps either, but I've seen plenty of people who have little to no trouble using torps in Coop and come out on top. If they can do it, so can you and I. We just gotta try harder.

If it's still too frustrating for you, then I suggest that you try those DD's that are more of a gunboat than a torpedo boat. It's far easier that way.

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23 minutes ago, Corsair_I said:

It is such a pain to play Co-Op in a destroyer. No matter how unpredictable you can be, the bots miraculously know when torps are coming to them and dodge them. Also, yesterday, I have a battleship chasing me although I was not visible. It was funny to see the bot constantly pointing the bow at my destroyer no matter how I position my ship compared to him.

What you have to do is aim your torps, then turn off the aiming reticle, and THEN fire the torps.  The bots know when they're targeted via the aiming reticle and avoid the torps accordingly.  But when you fire them without target lock, the bots don't realize torps have been launched on them.  This should improve your hit rate considerably.

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2 hours ago, Blorgh2017 said:

Otherwise, Coop mode would be a snooze fest.

Bot don't use things like radar or hydro, because they can already see all the ships and torpedoes at all time. They simply don't need it.

Still, that doesn't mean you can't hit bots with torpedoes, ever. You just gotta adopt and be quite more skillful and aggressive to land torpedo hits. Note that I italicized the word "skillful," because if you be just aggressive without much thought, you'll just end up doing a yolo suicide rush. Not fun at all. Anyhow, don't expect to fire torps at max range while concealed, hoping to ambush them. That stuff only works in Random. In Coop, you gotta make sure that bots can't do anything even if they see your torps as they enter the water. Such as: (1) firing at close range where they don't have enough time to maneuver, (2) firing at narrow spaces where they have no room to maneuver, and/or (3) taking advantage of their predictable behavior to force them into your torps.

I'm not good with torps either, but I've seen plenty of people who have little to no trouble using torps in Coop and come out on top. If they can do it, so can you and I. We just gotta try harder.

If it's still too frustrating for you, then I suggest that you try those DD's that are more of a gunboat than a torpedo boat. It's far easier that way.

I never play co-op unless it is a stand alone mission or a mission that is part of a campaign. I'm currently playing the HSF mission to get the HSF camo for a Yamato in my Harekaze. And I play Co -op to make sure I always have a victory to get my camo faster. But it is very frustrating. I have 5.4 km concealment and trust me, I use my concealment to the max meaning I'm as close to the enemy as it can be without getting detected. However, it is still not enough to prevent the bots from dodging my torps.

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21 minutes ago, Corsair_I said:

It is such a pain to play Co-Op in a destroyer. No matter how unpredictable you can be, the bots miraculously know when torps are coming to them and dodge them. Also, yesterday, I have a battleship chasing me although I was not visible. It was funny to see the bot constantly pointing the bow at my destroyer no matter how I position my ship compared to him.

Bot programming and priority targeting in that programming.

Cheating? Opinions vary; only thing to do is learn how it works and adapt accordingly.

As an example; knowing how the bots do things means my carrier wr in co-op is effectively 100% right now, even when my team Tanks and leaves me fighting at solo-warrior odds. Winning that way in other ships is tougher, but not impossible.

You can’t play destroyers in co-op the way you would in randoms, for the very reasons you mentioned. Best thing to do is just plain not get spotted. Stay far away and stealth torp, (* see below,) hide and close ambush, or smoke fire and run away before the smoke runs out and you get spotted.

If the bots mob you and follow you like some bad zombie flick, then drag them in front of your allies and hope they’re good at scoring citadels.

* Lock on to a bot, do whatever Kentucky windage lead you care to, then hit ‘x’ to unlock before launching. Sometimes this screws with the bots dodge programming and you can get hits.

12 minutes ago, Kousatsu said:

Well.. they are bots and they do know what's going on as they are quite literally part of the game. WG did dumb them down so.. /shrug

Actually, they made them smarter. They focus fire better, don’t ball up and get stuck, and are slightly better at choosing targets...

...they do still do stupid things sometimes, but not as much as before.

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32 minutes ago, Kousatsu said:

Well.. they are bots and they do know what's going on as they are quite literally part of the game. WG did dumb them down so.. /shrug

I do not want them to be dumb, I want them to be as smart as possible. It is not being smart by cheating.

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so charge down the enemies and launch torpedoes at point black range.. or hide by an island and wait for the bot train to reach you, then charge out and torp at point blank range. it's co-op - play to have fun and do the crazy stuff you can't do in randoms.

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40 minutes ago, Corsair_I said:

It is such a pain to play Co-Op in a destroyer. No matter how unpredictable you can be, the bots miraculously know when torps are coming to them and dodge them. Also, yesterday, I have a battleship chasing me although I was not visible. It was funny to see the bot constantly pointing the bow at my destroyer no matter how I position my ship compared to him.

Knowing they have all the cheats is half the battle. They are still dumb and can be had in a DD.

You simply have to understand they exactly where you are, and use it to your advantage. Drag them in front of your team to distract them. If they are shooting at someone else, they can't have their guns pre-aimed at you.

Spoiler

C6r6r1W.jpg

 

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LOL. The bots are not "cheating."

They are programmed.

The AI ships are actually programmed properly as far as when they face torps. They use their rudder and vary their speed to do their best to avoid as many or all of the torpedos as possible. There are a lot of human players who don't know how to do that, lol, even in higher tiers. How many of us have seen a BB or CA captain just sail in a straight line 4 to 9 km in front of a smoke screen and then cry that DDs are OP when they eat a full spread of torps? Or better yet, they detect the torps early but never do anything to avoid the torp spread? For whatever reason, it takes some players a long time to learn how to evade torpedos. 

Co-op is not especially hard, particularly once you know how the AI behaves... even in a DD. In fact, most of the time, the matches are far easier than a random match. I usually play them to take a break from the scenario battles and random battles or see how a new ship performs before taking it out in a random match.  However, just like in random matches, if your team doesn't play well, it can be very frustrating. 

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1 hour ago, Crucis said:

What you have to do is aim your torps, then turn off the aiming reticle, and THEN fire the torps.  The bots know when they're targeted via the aiming reticle and avoid the torps accordingly.  But when you fire them without target lock, the bots don't realize torps have been launched on them.  This should improve your hit rate considerably.

Hmm, I  need to try that :cap_yes:

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39 minutes ago, daVinci761st said:

LOL. The bots are not "cheating."

They are programmed.

The AI ships are actually programmed properly as far as when they face torps. They use their rudder and vary their speed to do their best to avoid as many or all of the torpedos as possible. There are a lot of human players who don't know how to do that, lol, even in higher tiers. How many of us have seen a BB or CA captain just sail in a straight line 4 to 9 km in front of a smoke screen and then cry that DDs are OP when they eat a full spread of torps? Or better yet, they detect the torps early but never do anything to avoid the torp spread? For whatever reason, it takes some players a long time to learn how to evade torpedos. 

Co-op is not especially hard, particularly once you know how the AI behaves... even in a DD. In fact, most of the time, the matches are far easier than a random match. I usually play them to take a break from the scenario battles and random battles or see how a new ship performs before taking it out in a random match.  However, just like in random matches, if your team doesn't play well, it can be very frustrating. 

No, they are cheating at times.  Maybe not when it comes to avoiding torps, but definitely other things.

When it comes to bots, I define cheating as acting in a way that requires information that a live player would not have.

1) If you're in a DD that's been unspotted the entire battle, a bot CV will still send planes DIRECTLY at you, even when you're unspotted and on a flank with no other possible target but your DD.  That's cheating.  They're using information that a normal player wouldn't have.

2)  If you're in a stealthy DD and you're unspotted but the nearest ship to the enemy, they won't fire on you (because you're unspotted), but they damned well will follow like they're bird dogs on a scent.  They'll chase you all around the map.  Again, that's cheating because they're using information that a normal player would not have.

Because of these two points, it's MONSTROUSLY frustrating to try to play stealthy ninja torpedo boat DDs in coop.  All in all, it's much better to play gunboat DDs.  After all, if they're going to cheat and know where you are whether you're spotted or not, you might as well play a gunboat DD and use your guns.  But be prepared.  Bots will almost very often decide that you're a nice juicy target even if you're much further away from them than a friendly BB trying to brawl with them.

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47 minutes ago, daVinci761st said:

LOL. The bots are not "cheating."

They are programmed.

The AI ships are actually programmed properly as far as when they face torps. They use their rudder and vary their speed to do their best to avoid as many or all of the torpedos as possible. There are a lot of human players who don't know how to do that, lol, even in higher tiers. How many of us have seen a BB or CA captain just sail in a straight line 4 to 9 km in front of a smoke screen and then cry that DDs are OP when they eat a full spread of torps? Or better yet, they detect the torps early but never do anything to avoid the torp spread? For whatever reason, it takes some players a long time to learn how to evade torpedos. 

Co-op is not especially hard, particularly once you know how the AI behaves... even in a DD. In fact, most of the time, the matches are far easier than a random match. I usually play them to take a break from the scenario battles and random battles or see how a new ship performs before taking it out in a random match.  However, just like in random matches, if your team doesn't play well, it can be very frustrating. 

If they can see the torps and they dodge, I would not have started this conversation. The bots start to change direction as soon as the torps are out in the water. That IS cheating. Also CV seems to always know where I am and directly send planes in my direction no matter if I start to run away from them as soon as I see them.

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25 minutes ago, Crucis said:

No, they are cheating at times.  Maybe not when it comes to avoiding torps, but definitely other things.

When it comes to bots, I define cheating as acting in a way that requires information that a live player would not have.

1) If you're in a DD that's been unspotted the entire battle, a bot CV will still send planes DIRECTLY at you, even when you're unspotted and on a flank with no other possible target but your DD.  That's cheating.  They're using information that a normal player wouldn't have.

2)  If you're in a stealthy DD and you're unspotted but the nearest ship to the enemy, they won't fire on you (because you're unspotted), but they damned well will follow like they're bird dogs on a scent.  They'll chase you all around the map.  Again, that's cheating because they're using information that a normal player would not have.

Because of these two points, it's MONSTROUSLY frustrating to try to play stealthy ninja torpedo boat DDs in coop.  All in all, it's much better to play gunboat DDs.  After all, if they're going to cheat and know where you are whether you're spotted or not, you might as well play a gunboat DD and use your guns.  But be prepared.  Bots will almost very often decide that you're a nice juicy target even if you're much further away from them than a friendly BB trying to brawl with them.

Exactly,  1) and 2) are exactly what happened to me. Point 2, not only they chase me although I'm invisible, they always have their bow pointing at me no matter how I maneuver. The only thing I disagree with your post is "at time". It is not at time, it is in every game I have when I'm in a DD. And yes, they cheat when they need to dodge the torps. What is funny to observe is that the ship that I aim always dodges my torps but one of the ships behind the one I aim hit the torps. So, yes, I believe your explanation about the bots knowing when you aim at them. The ship that is behind is not my target so it did not trigger the subroutine in the code to dodge my torpedoes even after they have been spotted by the enemy ship in front of it.

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2 hours ago, Crucis said:

What you have to do is aim your torps, then turn off the aiming reticle, and THEN fire the torps.  The bots know when they're targeted via the aiming reticle and avoid the torps accordingly.  But when you fire them without target lock, the bots don't realize torps have been launched on them.  This should improve your hit rate considerably.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. When I press 3, I got the band indicating where to aim the torps. Is that what you cal the aiming reticle? I know what the reticule is for a gun but I'm not sure what you mean by a reticle for torps. If that is what you mean, then I don't understand what you mean by turn off. That thing is always on when you press 3.

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1 hour ago, Crucis said:

No, they are cheating at times.  Maybe not when it comes to avoiding torps, but definitely other things.

When it comes to bots, I define cheating as acting in a way that requires information that a live player would not have.

1) If you're in a DD that's been unspotted the entire battle, a bot CV will still send planes DIRECTLY at you, even when you're unspotted and on a flank with no other possible target but your DD.  That's cheating.  They're using information that a normal player wouldn't have.

2)  If you're in a stealthy DD and you're unspotted but the nearest ship to the enemy, they won't fire on you (because you're unspotted), but they damned well will follow like they're bird dogs on a scent.  They'll chase you all around the map.  Again, that's cheating because they're using information that a normal player would not have.

Because of these two points, it's MONSTROUSLY frustrating to try to play stealthy ninja torpedo boat DDs in coop.  All in all, it's much better to play gunboat DDs.  After all, if they're going to cheat and know where you are whether you're spotted or not, you might as well play a gunboat DD and use your guns.  But be prepared.  Bots will almost very often decide that you're a nice juicy target even if you're much further away from them than a friendly BB trying to brawl with them.

That is true. The AI likely knows the position of all the players, and while that may not seem fair, I still think co-op mode is most of the time, very easy. That being said, I also think that plays a stealthy ninja torpedo DD is one of the most difficult skills to master in WoWs simply because when you make any mistake it is so unforgiving. And I can see how if the AI knows where you are but doesn't have you spotted via game mechanics also increases the difficulty of playing a DD in co-op.

What would be nice is if WG had different difficulty levels of co-op a player could choose.

58 minutes ago, Corsair_I said:

If they can see the torps and they dodge, I would not have started this conversation. The bots start to change direction as soon as the torps are out in the water. That IS cheating. Also CV seems to always know where I am and directly send planes in my direction no matter if I start to run away from them as soon as I see them.

I'm not saying that what your saying is not true about torps, but I haven't experienced that in a co-op game personally.

Could it be that instead of a programmed "cheat" that the enemy AI ship can detect the torps via a game mechanic such as an enemy ship is running hydro or there is a plane that is spotting them? Now, if that is not the case, and the bot ship is turning without detecting them via a game mechanic, I can understand the complaint and frustration. Again, I've just never experienced it nor can I remember seeing that type of behavior from bots.

I've also seen enemy BBs and CAs engaging with other ships on my team in a co-op match, with their turrets pointed the other direction, and I launch torps at them catching them by "surprise." They end up not turning and eating most of the torps. And in operation battle mode, those bots, while they are adept at turning to avoid torps, also can be surprised and sunk with torps.

So if the AI bots can always detect your torps when you fire them, I would think they would always turn to avoid them, should they not?

Edited by daVinci761st

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1 hour ago, Corsair_I said:

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. When I press 3, I got the band indicating where to aim the torps. Is that what you cal the aiming reticle? I know what the reticule is for a gun but I'm not sure what you mean by a reticle for torps. If that is what you mean, then I don't understand what you mean by turn off. That thing is always on when you press 3.

Actually, I meant to say hit the 'X' key.  That will turn off your target lock on the ship you want to fire your torps at.  Because you already aimed the torps, just turn off the target lock then "blind fire" the torps down the line where you know you were supposed to do  se when you had the target lock engaged and the torp target line showed you where to aim.

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3 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Actually, I meant to say hit the 'X' key.  That will turn off your target lock on the ship you want to fire your torps at.  Because you already aimed the torps, just turn off the target lock then "blind fire" the torps down the line where you know you were supposed to do  se when you had the target lock engaged and the torp target line showed you where to aim.

OK thanks.

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48 minutes ago, daVinci761st said:

That is true. The AI likely knows the position of all the players, and while that may not seem fair, I still think co-op mode is most of the time, very easy. That being said, I also think that plays a stealthy ninja torpedo DD is one of the most difficult skills to master in WoWs simply because when you make any mistake it is so unforgiving. And I can see how if the AI knows where you are but doesn't have you spotted via game mechanics also increases the difficulty of playing a DD in co-op.

What would be nice is if WG had different difficulty levels of co-op a player could choose.

I'm not saying that what your saying is not true about torps, but I haven't experienced that in a co-op game personally.

Could it be that instead of a programmed "cheat" that the enemy AI ship can detect the torps via a game mechanic such as an enemy ship is running hydro or there is a plane that is spotting them? Now, if that is not the case, and the bot ship is turning without detecting them via a game mechanic, I can understand the complaint and frustration. Again, I've just never experienced it nor can I remember seeing that type of behavior from bots.

I've also seen enemy BBs and CAs engaging with other ships on my team in a co-op match, with their turrets pointed the other direction, and I launch torps at them catching them by "surprise." They end up not turning and eating most of the torps. And in operation battle mode, those bots, while they are adept at turning to avoid torps, also can be surprised and sunk with torps.

So if the AI bots can always detect your torps when you fire them, I would think they would always turn to avoid them, should they not?

 

Please see the explanation from Crucis how the bots detect that you are aiming at them.

Bots should have subroutines where they act as an individual entity and not fishing information from the server database to know what you are doing.

Have you seen a computer chess game playing against itself? One has subroutines to try to predict what the other player controlled by the same computer is doing, not fishing information from the common logic to know what the other player is doing.

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36 minutes ago, daVinci761st said:

That is true. The AI likely knows the position of all the players, and while that may not seem fair, I still think co-op mode is most of the time, very easy. That being said, I also think that plays a stealthy ninja torpedo DD is one of the most difficult skills to master in WoWs simply because when you make any mistake it is so unforgiving. And I can see how if the AI knows where you are but doesn't have you spotted via game mechanics also increases the difficulty of playing a DD in co-op.

What would be nice is if WG had different difficulty levels of co-op a player could choose.

 

I understand how the server knows where you are at all times, but the bots do not need to act on it.  After all, if you're in smoke, they suddenly don't try blind firing you or charging the smoke, though they may head towards the smoke if that was their course before you smoke up.

And I fully understand that coop is easy.  But it should be fun to play, and it's not fun when they cheat by using information that no live player would have access to.   As for being a stealthy ninja torp boat DD being "one of the most difficult skills to master", I'm not entirely sure that I can agree.  Furthermore, it's more difficult if not outright impossible to do it in coop when they're constantly chasing you in spite of them not actually seeing you.  Like Corsair said, if they're chasing you, they're always going to be bow-on to you, which makes it nearly impossible to get good torp shots on the enemy.  And you can't learn a damned thing about torp boating when the bots cheat like that.  

Frankly it's to the point that I don't suggest that anyone play an IJN DD in coop.  It's just a waste of time.  USN DD's are much better in coop because, if you play it really smart, what you do is get in a good position a bit to the side of where the bots are advancing, and smoke up.  And then you smoke shoot them mercilessly and use your torps whenever possible.  And because you're in smoke, they won't ever try blind firing at you or charging you or any normal anti-smoke shooting DD tactic.  You can also try to do this in other nation's DDs, though they won't have smoke that's as long lasting as USN smoke.

 

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21 hours ago, Corsair_I said:

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. When I press 3, I got the band indicating where to aim the torps. Is that what you cal the aiming reticle? I know what the reticule is for a gun but I'm not sure what you mean by a reticle for torps. If that is what you mean, then I don't understand what you mean by turn off. That thing is always on when you press 3.

1. Press 3. 

2. Note gray area predicting the ship movement.

3. Press X and turn reticle off.

4. Watch movement of bot. Adjust aim accordingly, fire torps.

A variation on this is to put the reticle on another bot and launch the torps at the ship you want to hit. 

 

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21 hours ago, Crucis said:

No, they are cheating at times.  Maybe not when it comes to avoiding torps, but definitely other things.

When it comes to bots, I define cheating as acting in a way that requires information that a live player would not have.

1) If you're in a DD that's been unspotted the entire battle, a bot CV will still send planes DIRECTLY at you, even when you're unspotted and on a flank with no other possible target but your DD.  That's cheating.  They're using information that a normal player wouldn't have.

2)  If you're in a stealthy DD and you're unspotted but the nearest ship to the enemy, they won't fire on you (because you're unspotted), but they damned well will follow like they're bird dogs on a scent.  They'll chase you all around the map.  Again, that's cheating because they're using information that a normal player would not have.

Because of these two points, it's MONSTROUSLY frustrating to try to play stealthy ninja torpedo boat DDs in coop.  All in all, it's much better to play gunboat DDs.  After all, if they're going to cheat and know where you are whether you're spotted or not, you might as well play a gunboat DD and use your guns.  But be prepared.  Bots will almost very often decide that you're a nice juicy target even if you're much further away from them than a friendly BB trying to brawl with them.

Exactly. To this should be added the famous fire cheat -- the first salvo of HE causes a fire, thereafter, no other fires will be set for many many salvos. Utterly unlike Randoms in which fires are Random.

The bots also appear to have rudders that are much faster than their Random counterparts. 

And then there are the total BovineFeces(tm) citadel hits at incredible distances, angles, and amounts. High tier bots put suspiciously large numbers of cits on their human targets. Fortunately they like to broadside. 

I do not play DDs in high tier coop matches unless I am practicing a new DD. It is simply a colossal waste of time and no fun at all. With the idiotic addition of CVs to almost every match, you are constantly spotted and detected, and the CV will always hunt you all over the map. Tiresome and completely unnecessary. So sad that the devs spoiled my zenspace with those garbage ships....

I just play DDs in T6 and below, since you can still easily suicide torp bot BBs in those tiers. Especially with the Gun Canoe....

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8 hours ago, Destroyer_Suzukaze said:

Bots all have RPF - it actually started with bots and then was made available to players. 

  This is true.  I actually SEE the detected by icons- it was quite a surprise the first few times.  "Wait- since when did bots use consumables or high level skills??"   I've been radar'ed in Co-op. too.

  I still say it's ridiculous how focused they are on wiping out destroyers.  To the point that DD players are punished for trying to play their ships.   The rest of the team is punished as well, because it causes the bots to behave in ridiculous. stupid ways.  (the single minded chasing and swarming, for example.  I call it the SQUIRREL!!!!!! syndrome.) 

  There's making it challenging and difficult- then there's making it frustrating, irritating,  and punative towards certain ships/types.  They really need to make some adjustments.

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12 hours ago, Corsair_I said:

It is such a pain to play Co-Op in a destroyer. No matter how unpredictable you can be, the bots miraculously know when torps are coming to them and dodge them. Also, yesterday, I have a battleship chasing me although I was not visible. It was funny to see the bot constantly pointing the bow at my destroyer no matter how I position my ship compared to him.

If you want to run a dd in co op first learn how to do it on the Derzki.

shot-17_12.27_23_51.32-0637.thumb.jpg.f0948211954b6ff9347e7dbcc9bf6695.jpg

Aigle 6 DD france.svg 16 100.00% 59,005 575 12.5 1.6 0.1 88% 59% 23% 1,906
HSF Harekaze 8 DD japan_wows.svg 20 100.00% 59,218 649 1.9 1.3 2.6 35% 62% 25% 2,304
Fūjin 5 DD japan_wows.svg 66 98.48% 39,438 466 2.9 1.6 0.0 44% 59% 17% 1,254
Derzki 3 DD ussr.svg 114 97.37% 32,315 389 5.9 2.1 0.0 64% 55% 16% 1,857
Edited by Sovereigndawg

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