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Sventex

China Can Produce Larger Carriers

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They haven't produced any carriers. The only one they have they bought  and it was made in the Ukraine.

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Just now, jager_geist said:

They haven't produced any carriers. The only one they have they bought  and it was made in the Ukraine.

I'm certain its only a matter of time before they develop their own platform.

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They're very good at what they do. They take things apart, find out what makes them tick, and make more. I don't like it, but I can admire it.

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26 minutes ago, pewpewpew42 said:

They're very good at what they do. They take things apart, find out what makes them tick, and make more. I don't like it, but I can admire it.

They reverse engineer things, yes. They just don't produce quality products.

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34 minutes ago, Ace_04 said:

I'm certain its only a matter of time before they develop their own platform.

They are way behind and it will be a long time till they are producing their own. Its not just building a ship but the facilities and all the logistics behind it. That is why they bought the only one they have.

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Just now, jager_geist said:

They reverse engineer things, yes. They just don't produce quality products.

They don't produce quality products... for everyone else. The products that they make for internal use and sale are quite good. They don't ship the good stuff overseas. 

Keep in mind that their copy of the F-23 (J-21) was actually flight worthy before the F-23 was. 

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Problem with building all this 'stuff' is that they become more prone to -JUSTIFY- the expense by creating a war.

Building a military is a very inefficient and ineffective way to take over the world these days.  They were doing great by undercutting prices and commercially overtaking everyone.

But, like Nelson said, "If the enemy is making a mistake, don't interrupt them."

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32 minutes ago, OgreMkV said:

They don't produce quality products... for everyone else. The products that they make for internal use and sale are quite good. They don't ship the good stuff overseas. 

Keep in mind that their copy of the F-23 (J-21) was actually flight worthy before the F-23 was. 

When you’re so poorly informed on your factual statement, in casts doubt on your statement of opinion, too.  The F-23 flew in 1990.  The J-31 (I assume that’s what you meant) flew in 2012.

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1 hour ago, pewpewpew42 said:

They're very good at what they do. They take things apart, find out what makes them tick, and make more. I don't like it, but I can admire it.

Copying something can be a great shortcut.  However, I don't suspect a Chinese aircraft carrier will be very effective for a looong time.  The US has perfected CV systems, tactics, procedures, technology, etc over the last 96 years.  You can copy hardware, but not experience and expertise.

46 minutes ago, OgreMkV said:

Keep in mind that their copy of the F-23 (J-21) was actually flight worthy before the F-23 was. 

Again, I suspect the J-31 is a fancy copy, mostly in appearance.  I don't think it's capabilities (nor pilot expertise) is even close to its USAF counterpart.  That isn't just "'Murica!" fanboy talk, either.  Being flight worthy is a far cry from being capable of dominating the skies.  It isn't just the air frame and skin that makes the F-22 so dangerous.  It is the technology in its systems, and the training, tactics and experience of its pilot.

Edited by desmo_2
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CV-16 which is the Liaoning, is 67,000 tons.  That's the ex-Varyag.  Compared to the Admiral Kuznetsov, the battle

1 hour ago, Sventex said:

While I was flying to China 3 weeks ago, I read this lovely gem in the China Daily paper.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/201803/02/WS5a98882aa3106e7dcc13f009.html

0l973GI.jpg

 

 

CV-16, Liaoning, weighs around 67,000 tons.   We know it works well --- unlike its Russian counterpart, its never followed by a tugboat, and just a day ago, zipped through the Taiwan Straits as an entire battle group for over 28 knots, heading to a training live fire exercise in the South China Seas that will begin today.

 

JnxIINa.jpg

 

What a PLAN battlegroup looks like.  Interesting to know what are the two subs in front.

 

rM2wm3M.jpg

 

I think its an SSBN.

 

DEAtDv8.jpg

 

Second carrier is CV-17, name is said to be Shandong.  Her weight displacement is heavier than the Liaoning, likely around 70,000 to 75,000 tons.

 

She's ready for her trials as soon as her deck is cleaned up.  Her radars, particularly her AESA radars, are installed.

 

lzfk4DI.jpg

 

Third carrier is probably 80,000 tons, like a Kitty Hawk with EMALS and IEP.  Construction has already started with this ship.

 

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/navy-ships/a15392390/chinas-next-aircraft-carrier-002/

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Making a bigger carrier, sure. Anyone can do that provided they have a shipyard that's big enough and can build a new drydock for it. It being any good or their navy being able to operate it effectively? That's the bigger problem, and their starting off from where the Russian's left off. I suspect the Japanese would be better off if they got back in the CV game after not touching them for 73 years than China is at it today.

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1 minute ago, AVR_Project said:

Problem with building all this 'stuff' is that they become more prone to -JUSTIFY- the expense by creating a war.

Same could be said for the largest military in the world....:Smile_hiding:

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1 hour ago, OgreMkV said:

They don't produce quality products... for everyone else. The products that they make for internal use and sale are quite good. They don't ship the good stuff overseas. 

Keep in mind that their copy of the F-23 (J-21) was actually flight worthy before the F-23 was. 

Not true. The person I work with he has made several work trips over there doing work at a new theme park. The products and the assembly done there is very low quality. The CAD drawings that I have seen are very bad quality and is not uncommon to find scaling errors and schematic errors. Very bad quality all around.

Edited by jager_geist

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Routine training exercise.  Shows J-15s firing YJ-83s against a target, HQ-10s and Type 1130 CIWS on board the Liaoning against targets.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Sventex said:

We were just discussing that today.

As any industry in business today, we are looking for niche markets where we can make some sales.

We can make something for this weapon system...  even if it's just throwing snowballs.

-- Maybe the Chinese can make something cheaper ?? --   Problem is that they don't have anything to copy off of.

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14 minutes ago, jager_geist said:

Not true. The person I work with he has made several work trips over there doing work at a new theme park. The products and the assembly done there is very low quality. The CAD drawings that I have seen are very bad quality and is not uncommon to find scaling errors and schematic errors. Very bad quality all around.

I've submitted CAD drawings to China several times at my last job, and they always managed to screw it up.  Sometimes they outright redrawn everything I just did and make it all worse and off centered, but the worst thing is that they often see no problem with altering/redrawing licensed logos and wasting everyone's time with the useless prototypes.  Do they not understand how to use a .pdf?

Edited by Sventex

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2 hours ago, jager_geist said:

They reverse engineer things, yes. They just don't produce quality products.

They certainly do produce quality products...

Easy misconception when you don’t want to spend money but expect the same quality as a premium brand which costs ten times as much.

Edited by LemonadeWarrior

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2 hours ago, jager_geist said:

They haven't produced any carriers. The only one they have they bought  and it was made in the Ukraine.

They have, I believe, two under construction.

Still a long way from the number currently fielded by the USN though.

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There's a big difference between those ski ramp CVs and the 100K ton nuclear powered CVs the US runs currently. Also, we have 3 times the number of those than they do. The Chinese are significant military threat, but they're not going to be winning naval battles against the USN any time soon (assuming we get some guys who can drive a boat without hitting something).

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In the home building industry when a new part fails, they usually say Hencho in China on it. 

Edited by Sovereigndawg

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