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Flamu's right about a need to change to non-damage Rewards system.

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The upper tier (and it now starts at T7) meta is getting worse.  Camping and terrible positional play is now the complete norm in Random.

And I think Flamu is right as to the cause:  the total focus on causing damage, reinforced by the rewards system which seems to give virtually no benefit to anything except causing damage.

 

 

 

I've long complained that the spotting rewards system for DD (in particular) is completely opaque, completely undervalued, and invisible to newbies.  But, when I think about it, that's just the tip of the iceberg.

The reality is that winning a match has VERY little to do with causing raw damage, and mostly to do with all the things that DON'T get rewarded, or, if they are rewarded, are done so in a fashion that is either completely hidden from the player, or in a sort of "oh, by the way, maybe you got this medal" thing long after play is over.

I'd like to propose the following changes to the XP earning system:

Add these new awards:

  • SuperCapper:  (2) +25% Captain Experience flags.   For people getting 4 or more Cap or Shared Caps in a game. Should be able to be awarded multiple times per day.
  • SuperTanker:  (2) +25% Experience flag.  For those tanking 1 million or more potential damage. Able to be received multiple times/day.
  • Protector:  (10) +10% to AA guns flags. If you shoot down at least 20 planes which are attacking ships. Once per day.
  • Ace:  (5) +10% to damage caused by your fighters (from CV or ship-launched) flags. If you shoot down at least 20 fighters. Once per day.
  • Shredder: (1) -10% to DAA cooldown flag. Every time you kill an entire full-strength squad of planes yourself. Multiple times/game and /day.
  • Lookout:  (5) +20% to silver earned.  If you get 100k or more spotting damage rewards (see below).  Multiple times/day, once per game.
  • Defender: (10) + 25% Captain Experience flags. Earn 10 Cap Defense ribbons in a game OR kill a ship while it's capping a spot owned by your team. Once per day.
  • Marksman:  (1) +10% Experience flag.  Any game where you score 3 or more citadels, or 3 or more torpedo hits in a single salvo/volley. Once per game, multiple times per day.

Change these ones:

  • Dreadnought - should be awarded if you remain at below 5% health for 4 minutes total during the game (doesn't have to be in a single block). Doesn't matter if you live the entire match or not, just that you fought on for an extended period at very low health. That makes is available to ALL ships, not just those with a heal.
  • Liquidator - remove the requirement that you kill the ship you caused the flooding on.
  • Arsonist - remove the requirement you kill the ship you caused the fires on.
  • High Caliber - change to require that you do 50%+ damage to at least 4 ships. Remove the requirement that it be a percentage of the entire opposing force.
  • Kraken - change to be +300% FreeXP and get 5 rather than 10 flags.  Multiple times per day.

Remove these rewards completely:

  • Solo Warrior - it so VERY rarely happens that it's not worth rewarding.
  • Clear Skies - same here. Virtually no one except CVs get this, and it's quite rare there too.
  • Confederate - just an excuse to damage farm.
  • First Blood - leads to very bad over-aggressive play.
  • Devastating Strike - you don't get any rewards for it anyway, and it just reinforces the "damage is everything" meme.
  • Close Quarters Expert - given the automatic nature of the guns, no flags should be earned.

Additional rewards and changes that should result in in-game ribbons (awarded each and every time the conditions are met, so multiple per game):

  • Spotting damage should be calculated as follows:
  1.  You spot a previously unseen ship:  +1 XP.  Not awarded if multiple ships simultaneously spot the same ship.  "Previously unseen" does NOT mean "was never before seen". It means "was hidden from view until you saw it". In short, every time an enemy ship gets spotted, someone should potentially qualify for this reward.
  2. You keep a specific ship spotted for 1 minute: +25 XP and a spotting ribbon.
  3. If you spot an unseen ship, you are considered to STILL BE SPOTTING IT until another ship or plane can spot it INSIDE THAT ENEMY'S BASE CONCEALMENT RANGE.  Gun bloom range does NOT count towards removing your spotting.  This fixed the problem that you lose spotting damage because the enemy opens fire and the gun bloom gets the enemy spotted by others on your team.
  4. As a spotter, you are considered to have done 10% of the damage anyone on your team inflicts on the enemy you spot.
  5. If, when you turn on Radar or Hydro, you immediately spot any ship, +5 XP per ship spotted.  Does not apply if you don't instantly spot ships.
  • Replace the Damage Counter with a Base XP counter, so people see their rewards immediately upon doing the action.
  • Remove any ribbons and XP reward for secondary gun damage. It's automatic and does not require any player skill, so the only reward you should get is it saving your bacon, not anything else. You should still get ribbons for fires and kills secondary guns cause.
  • Every time you lay a smoke screen, and a friendly ship is entirely within the smoke puff when it comes out, you should get a Smoker ribbon, worth 5 XP.
  • Each Torpedo you spot should earn you a ribbon and 1 XP.
  • Each second you cap (whether taking an open one, or flipping an enemy-held one) should earn you 1 XP, whether or not you actually finish capping or not.
  • Each full 10 seconds you hold a cap preventing the enemy from completing their cap, or in opposition to someone trying to take over your cap, should earn you 5 XP.
  • Capping while never spotted earns you TWICE the normal amount.
  • A ribbon should be earned for every time your ship is shot at by at least 4 ships during a 1 minute interval.
  • Double the damage reward (whatever it is) for every point of damage you do to a ship trying to cap, or opposing your team capping. This is different than the Defender ribbon, which only applies for someone trying to cap a spot your team already owns.

 

OK, people, what other ways can you think of to reward good general tactical play, and not just for causing damage to an opponent?  And please, none of this "winning is its own reward" stuff.

 

 

Edited by EAnybody
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The guy is right about literally everything, he's my fav youtuber. No bullsh*t.

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Did not expect a full Documentary reading, I would add that in World of Planes. Bad play is not as bad as is with World of Warships. Each class plane have there own ways of contributing to the success of the mission while adding to your experience/coffers. I think Flamu started the discussion, but I would like to see it done for WOWS as well.

and on a funny note

STOP WRITING ESSAYS, LOL

Must of the regular community have jobs and dont have time to read it all (family, job, wife, Girlfriend, Boyfriend, ect.). My suggestion is, in the end make a final summery. I appreciate the time you had to write this and yes I agree.

+1 on my part..

Edited by Navalpride33

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I can agree with much of what he is saying, but not exactly everything.

More rewards to spotting in particular we've been talking about for as long as I remember.

A welcomed change to something that is the #1 priority of a DD who is "team play minded". 

I often put myself in situations where I get little because I'm giving my team the opportunity to shine.

The needs of the many outweighing the few should be rewarded more.

I'm not talking about something crazy, just more fair.

Edited by Wulfgarn
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Make a goal system for every class where after 1 mil points you get doubloons or premium or something. 

I find it dumb a bb that camped and farmed damage can be number one in a comeback because he had the hp to do it vs helping like he is  now, vs a ship that killed some ships and tanked to help make the comeback possible, gets maybe 2nd or 3rd.

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I think the point your missing is most players have no idea there is a spotting reward. Have no idea what free XP is or Ship XP is.  Most of random players are there to drive ships and shoot guns. I think most people playing like to win but there perception of winning is if you can sink a ship. I believe war gaming has learned most people do not have time for all the intricacies of this game. And to prove it you can see the slow moving to full Arcade type of game play. In CBT this game was a simulator type game, this proved not to be very useful as a globule free game. They are moving away from complicated to the simple and it shows. Comical camo, colored tracers, anime sponsors.  Why do you see the weekend players are so different? If you take the common player, a couple of games a week person and let them read that post the OP has written and they would say that's to much to know how do I shoot at ships, that's fun. I wish the game was more Historical I do, But I have grown to realize 90% of the people who sign in just want to shoot at ships. 

Edited by Raven114
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A destroyer gets 3 solo caps and spotting damage of 1 million, yet does no damage himself...

And ends up on top of team.  

I think it' in the game allready.

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I kind of think changing all the reward system to stop camping is doable. But why all the work ?

Just make hitting anything over 15K hit in the 10% only range :cap_look:

I know some of you think I'm crazy but the smoke changes they did I saw the meta change the let's work together because we can do teamwork just doesn't happen as much anymore

 nobody was going to push for it anymore nobody wants to be the first guy because that one gets focused on

So if nobody wants me the front guy you always have to be behind somebody so it's always a jockeying position to see who can get further back:cap_popcorn:

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If you just have the balance between the ships in game be better for the damage and survivability then the Credits and XP will fall in line. You will also have a situation where anyone playing this game will have equal chance whatever ship they have.

If all ships have balance then it will all come down to playing the ship they choose with skill rather than the ship being the thing that reflects how well you do.

All ship roles will still be different and will play different in regards to trying to achieve the objectives - the objectives will be a team win achievement and any rewards for the objectives are shared amongst the team (let's face it, objectives are rarely captured/kept without team play/support; so why shouldn't rewards for objectives be shared amongst the team?). :Smile_honoring:

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To many bottom feeders, Im so sick of the game meta , watching players being freaking selfish farming damage with 0 support nore cooperation. The few who cap, spot, rest etc.. are getting ZIP nothing....Yes flamu has a point...WG have to address the situation otherwise players will start moving away from it.

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Wanna adopt Planes 2.0 model? You get EXP based on what you do in battle (kills/assist/cap; maybe on number of ribbons serving as "milestones") and silver based on damage/kills...

...then people will fail to comprehend any of that...

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1 hour ago, EAnybody said:

The upper tier (and it now starts at T7) meta is getting worse.  Camping and terrible positional play is now the complete norm in Random.

And I think Flamu is right as to the cause:  the total focus on causing damage, reinforced by the rewards system which seems to give virtually no benefit to anything except causing damage.

 

 

 

I've long complained that the spotting rewards system for DD (in particular) is completely opaque, completely undervalued, and invisible to newbies.  But, when I think about it, that's just the tip of the iceberg.

The reality is that winning a match has VERY little to do with causing raw damage, and mostly to do with all the things that DON'T get rewarded, or, if they are rewarded, are done so in a fashion that is either completely hidden from the player, or in a sort of "oh, by the way, maybe you got this medal" thing long after play is over.

I'd like to propose the following changes to the XP earning system:

Add these new awards:

  • SuperCapper:  (2) +25% Captain Experience flags.   For people getting 4 or more Cap or Shared Caps in a game. Should be able to be awarded multiple times per day.
  • SuperTanker:  (2) +25% Experience flag.  For those tanking 1 million or more potential damage. Able to be received multiple times/day.
  • Protector:  (10) +10% to AA guns flags. If you shoot down at least 20 planes which are attacking ships. Once per day.
  • Ace:  (5) +10% to damage caused by your fighters (from CV or ship-launched) flags. If you shoot down at least 20 fighters. Once per day.
  • Shredder: (1) -10% to DAA cooldown flag. Every time you kill an entire full-strength squad of planes yourself. Multiple times/game and /day.
  • Lookout:  (5) +20% to silver earned.  If you get 100k or more spotting damage rewards (see below).  Multiple times/day, once per game.
  • Defender: (10) + 25% Captain Experience flags. Earn 10 Cap Defense ribbons in a game OR kill a ship while it's capping a spot owned by your team. Once per day.
  • Marksman:  (1) +10% Experience flag.  Any game where you score 3 or more citadels, or 3 or more torpedo hits in a single salvo/volley. Once per game, multiple times per day.

Change these ones:

  • Dreadnought - should be awarded if you remain at below 5% health for 4 minutes total during the game (doesn't have to be in a single block). Doesn't matter if you live the entire match or not, just that you fought on for an extended period at very low health. That makes is available to ALL ships, not just those with a heal.
  • Liquidator - remove the requirement that you kill the ship you caused the flooding on.
  • Arsonist - remove the requirement you kill the ship you caused the fires on.
  • High Caliber - change to require that you do 50%+ damage to at least 4 ships. Remove the requirement that it be a percentage of the entire opposing force.
  • Kraken - change to be +300% FreeXP and get 5 rather than 10 flags.  Multiple times per day.

Remove these rewards completely:

  • Solo Warrior - it so VERY rarely happens that it's not worth rewarding.
  • Clear Skies - same here. Virtually no one except CVs get this, and it's quite rare there too.
  • Confederate - just an excuse to damage farm.
  • First Blood - leads to very bad over-aggressive play.
  • Devastating Strike - you don't get any rewards for it anyway, and it just reinforces the "damage is everything" meme.
  • Close Quarters Expert - given the automatic nature of the guns, no flags should be earned.

Additional rewards and changes that should result in in-game ribbons (awarded each and every time the conditions are met, so multiple per game):

  • Spotting damage should be calculated as follows:
  1.  You spot a previously unseen ship:  +1 XP.  Not awarded if multiple ships simultaneously spot the same ship.  "Previously unseen" does NOT mean "was never before seen". It means "was hidden from view until you saw it". In short, every time an enemy ship gets spotted, someone should potentially qualify for this reward.
  2. You keep a specific ship spotted for 1 minute: +25 XP and a spotting ribbon.
  3. If you spot an unseen ship, you are considered to STILL BE SPOTTING IT until another ship or plane can spot it INSIDE THAT ENEMY'S BASE CONCEALMENT RANGE.  Gun bloom range does NOT count towards removing your spotting.  This fixed the problem that you lose spotting damage because the enemy opens fire and the gun bloom gets the enemy spotted by others on your team.
  4. As a spotter, you are considered to have done 10% of the damage anyone on your team inflicts on the enemy you spot.
  5. If, when you turn on Radar or Hydro, you immediately spot any ship, +5 XP per ship spotted.  Does not apply if you don't instantly spot ships.
  • Replace the Damage Counter with a Base XP counter, so people see their rewards immediately upon doing the action.
  • Remove any ribbons and XP reward for secondary gun damage. It's automatic and does not require any player skill, so the only reward you should get is it saving your bacon, not anything else. You should still get ribbons for fires and kills secondary guns cause.
  • Every time you lay a smoke screen, and a friendly ship is entirely within the smoke puff when it comes out, you should get a Smoker ribbon, worth 5 XP.
  • Each Torpedo you spot should earn you a ribbon and 1 XP.
  • Each second you cap (whether taking an open one, or flipping an enemy-held one) should earn you 1 XP, whether or not you actually finish capping or not.
  • Each full 10 seconds you hold a cap preventing the enemy from completing their cap, or in opposition to someone trying to take over your cap, should earn you 5 XP.
  • Capping while never spotted earns you TWICE the normal amount.
  • A ribbon should be earned for every time your ship is shot at by at least 4 ships during a 1 minute interval.
  • Double the damage reward (whatever it is) for every point of damage you do to a ship trying to cap, or opposing your team capping. This is different than the Defender ribbon, which only applies for someone trying to cap a spot your team already owns.

 

OK, people, what other ways can you think of to reward good general tactical play, and not just for causing damage to an opponent?  And please, none of this "winning is its own reward" stuff.

 

 

Maybe some balance issues with some of the flags you mentioned, but I think this would definitely be an improvement over the current system. Don't assume people will learn the nuances alone if you reinforce negative behavior, you have to reinforce the positive behaviors for them to increase :)

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First, I am in agreement with Flamu regarding the need to revamp the award system to encourage better team play, cooperation, and less damage farming. I feel that the developers at Wargaming are aware of what is occurring in game and I imagine they have to balance the concerns of veteran players as well as the limitation of new players.

Damage is awarded because it's really the easiest concept for new players to understand. Many people who first play don't understand much about the subtleties of the game. I think in addition to all of Flamu's recommendations another way to "train" new players is the expansion of an online chat or forum. Perhaps a system can be put in place where new players are automatically placed into a training fleet and there would be easy access to an online chat area where some designated volunteer veteran players could dispense advice, answer questions, and help. In essence this would be easing newer players into the real role of the ships they play. Some may say we have these forums however in truth only the more dedicated players even both to come to the web forums so almost everyone here has the least to learn from new players who just start. The whole point is to make it easy for new players to receive information.  

At the same time these players would be introduced to people who are part of clans and I think that is where a lot of the learning does occur when casual players make a transition to join a fleet and where other people can take ownership of the learning process. 

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53 minutes ago, buzz_bomb said:

First, I am in agreement with Flamu regarding the need to revamp the award system to encourage better team play, cooperation, and less damage farming. I feel that the developers at Wargaming are aware of what is occurring in game and I imagine they have to balance the concerns of veteran players as well as the limitation of new players.

Damage is awarded because it's really the easiest concept for new players to understand. Many people who first play don't understand much about the subtleties of the game. I think in addition to all of Flamu's recommendations another way to "train" new players is the expansion of an online chat or forum. Perhaps a system can be put in place where new players are automatically placed into a training fleet and there would be easy access to an online chat area where some designated volunteer veteran players could dispense advice, answer questions, and help. In essence this would be easing newer players into the real role of the ships they play. Some may say we have these forums however in truth only the more dedicated players even both to come to the web forums so almost everyone here has the least to learn from new players who just start. The whole point is to make it easy for new players to receive information.  

At the same time these players would be introduced to people who are part of clans and I think that is where a lot of the learning does occur when casual players make a transition to join a fleet and where other people can take ownership of the learning process. 

I've always liked the idea of some form of training.

I'm actually quite surprised we don't have "training" clans that are WG approved.

Idk if I can get behind a chat, or forum though. I say that because this forum and port chat are way too toxic as it is.

If I was a new player, I'd uninstall pretty quickly after a few conversations with some of these forks around.

When you have even CCs blasting a new player (first post) for asking a common knowledge question, it's not a place a new player needs to be.

Overall the community is unhelpful and borderline bullies.

Edited by Wulfgarn
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I'm all for DDs getting more spotting credit. I'd rather they use their concealment to that end more instead of breaking concealment to fire guns for damage. Being sneaky and keeping targets lit goes a long way for success. May cause opposing DDs to have to hunt the spotter instead of other things. IJN and PA would probably benefit most.

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I think the core problem is not rewards, but game design. Once the shells start flying, average player does not care about rewards or any complicated victory system, just damage done and damage taken. While flamu's suggestion would be a good improvement, I doubt it world impact the play of most players.

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Lol @ the guys who only post videos of their 120k+ games complaining about other players over-valuing damage stats.

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Honestly, they just need visual ribbons for initial spots and spotted target damage, like tanks. It will encourage DDs to be spotters. I know tanks is a dirty word to some of you, but as a person that was a big light tanker, spotted target hit ribbons popping up has an encouraging affect. 

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I see the Flamu fan-club is in full swing... People have been saying and posting this for 2 years, but the second "Flamu" or any other CC mentions it... suddenly it's a good idea?

Edited by FleetAdmiral_Assassin
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2 hours ago, dEsTurbed1 said:

A destroyer gets 3 solo caps and spotting damage of 1 million, yet does no damage himself...

And ends up on top of team.  

I think it' in the game allready.

Yeah, this. The last really good game I had in my Nicholas, I did not all that much damage and I'm not sure I sank anything. But I took the (standard battle) cap point as the sole ship to do so, and I was top of team. (Credit mostly belongs to the team-mates who were doing the fighting while I quietly capped behind them, but still... the point about capping vs. killing remains.)

 

Unfortunately I feel that Flamu weakens his case by his very existence, because right or wrong, it is certainly my perception that if there is any WOWS YouTuber with whom I habitually associate the term "damage farmer", it's him.

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7 minutes ago, FleetAdmiral_Assassin said:

I see the Flamu fan-club is in full swing... People have been saying and posting this for 2 years, but the second "Flamu" or any other CC mentions it... suddenly it's a good idea?

Why not just be happy the idea is getting some traction? I'm personally just glad it is getting all this attention right now and maybe that means in the next 6 months the game can just be all the better for it :)

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35 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

Unfortunately I feel that Flamu weakens his case by his very existence, because right or wrong, it is certainly my perception that if there is any WOWS YouTuber with whom I habitually associate the term "damage farmer", it's him.

Exactly

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Given how rarely people play for objectives, I have a hard time believing they go out of their way to get damage.  Sure they drive around and try to shoot at things, but often people focus on survival even more than damage.

The best exp booster, is the one you get for winning.  I personally believe that the passivity in this game is due to the damage period.  People are afraid of being "punished" so they never leave their room.

Edited by crzyhawk

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44 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

Unfortunately I feel that Flamu weakens his case by his very existence, because right or wrong, it is certainly my perception that if there is any WOWS YouTuber with whom I habitually associate the term "damage farmer", it's him.

Really?  I'd vote for Panzerknacker as the #1 culprit there.

I'm not absolving Flamu here, but let's focus on the message, NOT the messenger.

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Whether one is a fan of Flamu or not, I believe there is a lot of merit in his message here. In essence, he seems to be saying "let's reward team play and make it apparent that we are doing so in order to incentivize players to focus on learning sound team tactics rather than on farming damage, possibly to the exclusion of every other consideration." We can argue about how to do that, but do any of us believe this is a bad idea? I certainly do not. I think his ideas are excellent, and his reasoning sound. I do not say this as a fan-boy. I say this as a player who would love to see in-game incentives for what I believe most of us consider intelligent team play. Particularly for newer players who may not have the time or inclination to study the game beyond the messages and rewards they are given while playing.

Respects,

Am

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