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capncrunch21

Curious - why Lyon at T7 and Richelieu at T8?

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I was wondering what the thinking was behind making the French BBs Lyon and Richelieu Tiers 7 and 8 respectively.

Wouldn't it have made more sense to make Richelieu the Tier 7 Battleship (a step up from her Tier 6 sister Dunkerque) and made the fake Lyon Tier 8 with a conventional turret arrangement? (it is unclear how the turrets would have been laid out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyon-class_battleship - so WG has freedom her to do what they want). With a conventional turret layout (2 forward, 2 aft) Lyon with its sixteen guns would be better suited for T8. All WG would have to do is tweak the sigma values a bit (and play with the armor arrangement/thickness - easily done with a fake ship). 

Again, I'm just curious why this more logical progression wasn't followed - Richelieu and Dunkerque closer together like they should be and Lyon higher up with a conventional layout. Anyone know?

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exactly how many designed (and or built and launched) pre 1920 ships sit above tier VII?

 

 

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Because Richelieu has too much guns/armor to be put at Tier VII, and Lyon too little to be tier VIII. Dunkerque is not a tree ship, and putting Lyon at VIII would just move the problem to be in relation to Alsace.

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WG works in mysterious ways. Where do you think his only begotten son RNGESUS came from? MM of course is the virgin mother.

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I have no insightful answer to your question Op. However, playing the Richelieu in the current Scenarios Operation...it's a freaking beast-mode of a ship!

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The Rich is supposed to be the 'ultimate' ends of the 'bow tank' concept; if you put it at 7 it gets T7 plating which can be overmatched by 16" guns and 15" guns whereas if you place it at T8 it gets 32mm plating which is immune to all but the Musashi/Yamato. It would be kind of sad for the archetype of bow tanking to be basically unable to do so because of overmatch mechanics.

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WG is happier to massage some stats more than others. At the moment the main gun caliber and in particular HP pool are fairly 'solid'.

Lyon has very low HP even for T7 and would be fairly unworkable at T8.

 

The other consideration would be WG's stance on gun-caliber progression, reversing them would mess with that...

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1 hour ago, capncrunch21 said:

I was wondering what the thinking was behind making the French BBs Lyon and Richelieu Tiers 7 and 8 respectively.

Wouldn't it have made more sense to make Richelieu the Tier 7 Battleship (a step up from her Tier 6 sister Dunkerque) and made the fake Lyon Tier 8 with a conventional turret arrangement? (it is unclear how the turrets would have been laid out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyon-class_battleship - so WG has freedom her to do what they want). With a conventional turret layout (2 forward, 2 aft) Lyon with its sixteen guns would be better suited for T8. All WG would have to do is tweak the sigma values a bit (and play with the armor arrangement/thickness - easily done with a fake ship). 

Again, I'm just curious why this more logical progression wasn't followed - Richelieu and Dunkerque closer together like they should be and Lyon higher up with a conventional layout. Anyone know?

so you may want to look through the Wikipedia you link before posting as it answers your question ...

1. though the arrangement is not clear. According to Conway's All the World's Fighting Ships, one turret was placed forward, one amidships, and two in a superfiring pair aft.

2. Preceded by: Normandie class  Succeeded by: Dunkerque

 

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10 minutes ago, _RC1138 said:

The Rich is supposed to be the 'ultimate' ends of the 'bow tank' concept; if you put it at 7 it gets T7 plating which can be overmatched by 16" guns and 15" guns whereas if you place it at T8 it gets 32mm plating which is immune to all but the Musashi/Yamato. It would be kind of sad for the archetype of bow tanking to be basically unable to do so because of overmatch mechanics.

"Bow tank" was not a real naval strategy/concept, it's a product of game mechanics. The all forward arrangement was developed to attempt to minimize the area requiring heavy belt/deck armor, as well as maximize the amount of firepower for a given displacement at the time. 

Turns out it wasn't a great concept and France would have moved away from it for the third ship of the class (Gascogne). 

And to answer OP's question, Rich was a fast BB from the interwar period, Lyon would have been a modernized super dreadnought. Plus 13" guns at T8 would have been beyond bad. It makes the most sense the way it is now (although with the Republique as the T10, they probably should have put the Gascogne in as the tech tree ship and made the Rich a premium) 

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1 minute ago, Show_Me_Your_Cits said:

"Bow tank" was not a real naval strategy/concept, it's a product of game mechanics. The all forward arrangement was developed to attempt to minimize the area requiring heavy belt/deck armor, as well as maximize the amount of firepower for a given displacement at the time. 

Turns out it wasn't a great concept and France would have moved away from it for the third ship of the class (Gascogne). 

And to answer OP's question, Rich was a fast BB from the interwar period, Lyon would have been a modernized super dreadnought. Plus 13" guns at T8 would have been beyond bad. It makes the most sense the way it is now (although with the Republique as the T10, they probably should have put the Gascogne in as the tech tree ship and made the Rich a premium) 

Of course not, but we're talking the concept in WoWs, where bow tanking is *very* much a thing, and the Rich and Dunk are the Queens of Bow tanking, sacrificing NOTHING (in so far as gunnery) to do so. Losing the ability to bow tank by being placed at T7 would be very disappointing.

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The Lyon is grossly overpowered when it comes to speed and maneuverability. In reality it would have been only moving 23 knts max speed like most dreadnoughts of that period. WG decided that since it's french they need the french speed bias. 

 

Just for the record, i stopped at Tier 7. The lyon is a beast. One of the best tier 7 battleships for sure.

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1 hour ago, _RC1138 said:

Of course not, but we're talking the concept in WoWs, where bow tanking is *very* much a thing, and the Rich and Dunk are the Queens of Bow tanking, sacrificing NOTHING (in so far as gunnery) to do so. Losing the ability to bow tank by being placed at T7 would be very disappointing.

You can do that "gamey" stuff in PvP. But don't come into PvE and try it. Bots have NO respect for bow tanking and you will be flanked and destroyed very quickly. I always get a great laugh out of people who try that stuff in PvE. :Smile_teethhappy:

Edited by Deputy276
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1 hour ago, Dastun said:

so you may want to look through the Wikipedia you link before posting as it answers your question ...

1. though the arrangement is not clear. According to Conway's All the World's Fighting Ships, one turret was placed forward, one amidships, and two in a superfiring pair aft.

2. Preceded by: Normandie class  Succeeded by: Dunkerque

 

People who live in glass houses...  :fish_palm:

Did you stop reading after point 1? The very next sentence says, "The contemporary Journal of United States Artillery, however, suggests the turrets would have been mounted in two superfiring pairs, forward and aft."

Plus the picture of the class in the upper right corner shows one of ships of this class, the Tourville, with the conventional layout.

 

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24 minutes ago, capncrunch21 said:

People who live in glass houses...  :fish_palm:

Did you stop reading after point 1? The very next sentence says, "The contemporary Journal of United States Artillery, however, suggests the turrets would have been mounted in two superfiring pairs, forward and aft."

Plus the picture of the class in the upper right corner shows one of ships of this class, the Tourville, with the conventional layout.

 

I was just pointing out those 2 points listed in the wiki so no I did not stop reading. You don't think there were other design proposals drawn up?  Have we not seen that ships with the same hull designs have different armament layouts or compartment placements?  

Check out the drawing here http://www.naval-encyclopedia.com/ww2/french-navy

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Hey WG.  Please feel free to sell me a tier 7 version of the Lyon.  I’d buy that. 

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2 hours ago, Deputy276 said:

You can do that "gamey" stuff in PvP. But don't come into PvE and try it. Bots have NO respect for bow tanking and you will be flanked and destroyed very quickly. I always get a great laugh out of people who try that stuff in PvE. :Smile_teethhappy:

  Yep- they do so love to bow charge you (shrugging off the worst of your fire all the while), and then either ram, or do the point blank drive-by thing, don't they, lol.   And since they're bots, you can count on eating at least one citadel. (and being set on fire)

 

  Lyon can be both fun and beastly- but I shudder to think about bringing 13" guns to all those tier 10 battles T8's see...   The beyond awful turret traverse doesn't help, either.   I'm constantly out turning my turrets when maneuvering, and the wait= esp to change sides is agonizing.   I did, however, win a brawl with an Alabama and a Hipper at the same time with it.   Both ended up dying to my secondaries- which racked up 157 hits that game!    

  Just know that I was screaming "Oh for F$#%'s sake!!!  TURN DAMMIT!!"  at my main turrets most of that time.

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4 hours ago, _RC1138 said:

The Rich is supposed to be the 'ultimate' ends of the 'bow tank' concept; if you put it at 7 it gets T7 plating which can be overmatched by 16" guns and 15" guns whereas if you place it at T8 it gets 32mm plating which is immune to all but the Musashi/Yamato. It would be kind of sad for the archetype of bow tanking to be basically unable to do so because of overmatch mechanics.

 Now ranking will get you killed burning and losIng turrets. For the Richelieu go full secondary and use your speed and maneuverability to flank. If you get overwhelmed, turn, use speed boost and let your secondaries harass the cruisers and DDs that can keep up. Take some “over the shoulder” shots when you can. 

 

Mobility is the key. 

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Richelieu, though having 8 guns only, they are larger caliber guns, 380mm vs Lyon's 340mm.  The French BB guns from Tier VIII on also have fabulous penetration capabilities, better than a number of 16" / 406mm / 410mm guns.  Richelieu is also markedly faster and tougher than Lyon.  Stuffing her into Tier VII is a bit overkill.

 

Putting Lyon into Tier VIII and facing the likes of Montana, Yamato, Hindenburg, Yueyang, Shimakaze, Zao, etc., with only a bunch of weak penetrating 340mm guns and poor speed, AWFUL ARMOR is suicide.

 

Check Lyon's 340mm penetration values.

T7bbpen.png.f035ca2ff3bc6ebbf80d40bc2444

And Richelieu's 380mm pen values.

t8bbpen.png.6bf2cedfce458f8a3c1276120331

Source for Penetration Tables.

Tier VIII Richelieu / Gascogne with 380mm guns.

570mm pen at 10km

500mm pen at 14km - She is right there with a bunch of 16" BBs in Tier VIII at that range!

Tier VII Lyon with 340mm guns.

420mm pen at 10km

340mm pen at 14km - BRAH, THIS ISN'T EVEN CLOSE!

Tier VII Nagato with 410mm guns - The strongest BB Guns of Tier VII.

580mm pen at 10km

500mm pen at 14km

Tier VII Gneisenau with 380mm guns - She only has 6 of these!

540mm pen at 10km

470mm pen at 14km - Good luck hitting at that range.

 

Those French 15's are nice, the only thing they got against them is wonky dispersion at range and some Cruisers being able to bow tank 15".  You can't have those performance 15" guns in Tier VII.  FFS, look at Gneisenau's 15" performance and consider she has worse accuracy and only 6 of them!

 

Those French 15's combined with Richelieu's armor, speed, secondaries, AA at Tier VII would be unreasonable.  Richy at VII would get Gneisenau players to riot.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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