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Guardian54

Inaccuracy Needs A Nerf

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If the number of shells you can spray in a target's general direction, whether all at once or over a brief time, is high enough, increasing the accuracy is no longer a buff.

Imagine a rocket launcher that can shoot 3 separate rounds down the exact same trajectory every time (a la Borderlands savefile edit for a rocket launcher with the +2 projectiles shotgun module on it with other components all geared for accuracy and alpha) when you're fighting really fast targets. Compare that to a shotgun firing 9 pellets in a spread pattern.

 

In fact, if the Lyon for example had such accuracy that all its shells were guaranteed to land within 20m of the aim point, it would be a COLOSSAL nerf because then cruisers and destroyers could reliably DODGE IT. The Atlanta is highly accurate, but that accuracy balances it instead of breaks it.

This is because, in the majority of aim failures (true for most of us, don't pretend otherwise), PEBKAC (Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Computer) or PEBKAS (...Screen). Thus a laser accurate gun is a hindrance.

If the accuracy is LOW, however, you need only aim somewhere within 300m of where the target will be in 10 seconds, and you'll almost certainly score at least one hit.

Now, one hit is nothing against a battleship, but if it's a battleship calibre gun firing on cruisers?

No, there is no amount of "git gud" that reliably saves cruisers from being defecated all over by Lyons, unlike with every other battleship where WASD keyboard-fu basically negates the chance of being citadelled. Even with other battleships pounding on them, Lyon players are observed to selectively attack cruisers to delete them. It would be no exaggeration to say that combined with the aimpoint hack mod a Lyon can reliably kill cruisers in smoke just by spray and pray with a spotter plane to help spot the smoke circles.

 

The Lyon is simply a broken ship. It requires a massive buff to accuracy to stop being overpowered against cruisers (and to be less absurdly frustrating when trying to shotgun other BBs at range), preferably with much less ROF, because we know remodelling to make it 12 guns and therefore make the speed saner for the design via  larger engines (we've heard the rage over Normandie speed N times on these forums) is basically impossible with how WG balances things.

EDITED for emphasis on the ROF nerf.

 

Suppose we made a ship with 16x 20-inch guns, 25 second reload, and said that it was balanced at Tier 10 with maximum dispersion of say 350m (Lyon has 249m, scale up with range) and 1.0 sigma, because it's so inaccurate it won't be overpowered (against other battleships). The only thing I can be sure of is that it would either be Russian or an April Fool's event, and that Tier 8-10 cruisers would suffer yet another drop in popularity.

EDIT 2: CONCLUSION SO FAR seems to be that a 16-gun BB is extremely hard to balance, due to "inaccurate = lol cruisers can't dodge" and "accurate = lol 12+ hits per salvo on enemy BBs". Well, then, maybe take out the center turret? It also makes the speed make sense then with a longer set of boiler/engine rooms.

Edited by Guardian54
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You.....do realize any ship with 25mm bow armor has virtual immunity to Lyon....right?  

You....also need to pass the bong.

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Just now, _V12 said:

You.....do realize any ship with 25mm bow armor has virtual immunity to Lyon....right?  

You....also need to pass the bong.

In other words, BBs.

Because absolutely none of my cruisers seem to make the cut (haven't tested New Orleans against Lyons though). And then there's AP TO GODDAMNED SUPERSTRUCTURE!

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13 minutes ago, Guardian54 said:

In other words, BBs.

Because absolutely none of my cruisers seem to make the cut (haven't tested New Orleans against Lyons though). And then there's AP TO GODDAMNED SUPERSTRUCTURE!

:Smile_amazed:

I tried, guys.

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4 minutes ago, _V12 said:

:Smile_amazed:

I tried, guys.

Because the Lyon is guaranteed to be alone so you can just yolo him, assuming you're in something where you CAN bow tank, as opposed to kiting him and his buddies and thus wiggling your much flatter STERN at him?

Because he won't shotgun you to oblivion if you charge to torp range and show your side enough to fire torps?

Because he can't AP your superstructure or plunging fire your thin cruiser deck armour?

REALLY?

Lyon is a deeply broken ship that has thus far convinced me that the Warships and Tanks balancing teams are equal in skill. See 268V4 or Type 5 derp sprem HE for an example.

Edited by Guardian54

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2 minutes ago, Guardian54 said:

as opposed to kiting him and his buddies and thus wiggling your much flatter STERN at him?

Not how the armor works, just a heads up before you continue.

 

3 minutes ago, Guardian54 said:

plunging fire your thin cruiser deck armour?

Also not how it works unless they overmatch, in which case it's an overpen anyways.

 

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You do understand that many people know how to shoot and aim at this game?

If you NERF the guns by making them MORE accurate then people facing the Lyon will face 12 shells out of 16 near the citadel instead of 3-4.

Yup, that sounds like a nerf to me.....

Edited by Prothall

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6 minutes ago, Prothall said:

You do understand that many people know how to shoot and aim at this game?

If you NERF the guns by making them MORE accurate then people facing the Lyon will face 12 shells out of 16 near the citadel instead of 3-4.

Yup, that sounds like a nerf to me.....

His logic is everyone is a Stormtrooper, and we all need a massive spread to get 2 hits, and tight accuracy would lead to our always missed shots being guaranteed to miss. Logic

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Umm......

You know, I agree with you.  Buff the Lyon's accuracy.  What can could go wrong?  

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31 minutes ago, Prothall said:

You do understand that many people know how to shoot and aim at this game?

If you NERF the guns by making them MORE accurate then people facing the Lyon will face 12 shells out of 16 near the citadel instead of 3-4.

Yup, that sounds like a nerf to me.....

Just ask the Emu War how many machine gun bullets they fired for how many kills, and compare that with how many you can expect with the same number of buckshot shells (at reasonable ranges) firing out from farm buildings (e.g. blockhouses pretty much).

Nerfing someone by giving them a machine gun to shoot small game with instead of a shotgun is makes sense in that light.

And I did strongly recommend an ROF nerf.

23 minutes ago, RealNewDeal said:

His logic is everyone is a Stormtrooper, and we all need a massive spread to get 2 hits, and tight accuracy would lead to our always missed shots being guaranteed to miss. Logic

Most of the playerbase is, indeed, stormtroopers, or very prone to such or at least misestimating.

The Lyon as it is now can fire into roughly the right grid and still score hits.

21 minutes ago, yashma said:

Umm......

You know, I agree with you.  Buff the Lyon's accuracy.  What can could go wrong?  

It seems most folks didn't read the "please nerfbat the ROF"...

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4 hours ago, Guardian54 said:

Even with other battleships pounding on them, Lyon players are observed to selectively attack cruisers to delete them.

Um. I selectively attack any cruiser in any of my BBs. Yes, to delete them.

Some yelled about the Bismarck having so few main guns, and accuracy; others yell now about the Lyon having too many, and accuracy issues...

The dogs bark and the caravan moves on.

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I have read this post 3 times and still don't understand what he is saying. I even tried smoking a few bongs and still nothing.

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36 minutes ago, CLUCH_CARGO said:

I have read this post 3 times and still don't understand what he is saying. I even tried smoking a few bongs and still nothing.

  • Dropping acid may be helpful, in this circumstance :Smile_sceptic:
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No, and no. Lyon would become way too powerful with an accuracy buff, and it would be way worse than you are thinking. Not even an ROF nerf would help.

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1 hour ago, Doomlock said:

No, and no. Lyon would become way too powerful with an accuracy buff, and it would be way worse than you are thinking. Not even an ROF nerf would help.

So the conclusion is that a 16-gun BB generally throws the balance out the window no matter what is done.

Because, unlike more accurate BBs, he will almost always hit a dodging and kiting cruiser.

And more accuracy makes him too OP against BBs which cannot dodge.

 

Sounds about right.

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12 hours ago, Guardian54 said:

If the number of shells you can spray in a target's general direction, whether all at once or over a brief time, is high enough, increasing the accuracy is no longer a buff.

Imagine a rocket launcher that can shoot 3 separate rounds down the exact same trajectory every time (a la Borderlands savefile edit for a rocket launcher with the +2 projectiles shotgun module on it with other components all geared for accuracy and alpha) when you're fighting really fast targets. Compare that to a shotgun firing 9 pellets in a spread pattern.

 

In fact, if the Lyon for example had such accuracy that all its shells were guaranteed to land within 20m of the aim point, it would be a COLOSSAL nerf because then cruisers and destroyers could reliably DODGE IT. The Atlanta is highly accurate, but that accuracy balances it instead of breaks it.

This is because, in the majority of aim failures (true for most of us, don't pretend otherwise), PEBKAC (Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Computer) or PEBKAS (...Screen). Thus a laser accurate gun is a hindrance.

If the accuracy is LOW, however, you need only aim somewhere within 300m of where the target will be in 10 seconds, and you'll almost certainly score at least one hit.

Now, one hit is nothing against a battleship, but if it's a battleship calibre gun firing on cruisers?

No, there is no amount of "git gud" that reliably saves cruisers from being defecated all over by Lyons, unlike with every other battleship where WASD keyboard-fu basically negates the chance of being citadelled. Even with other battleships pounding on them, Lyon players are observed to selectively attack cruisers to delete them. It would be no exaggeration to say that combined with the aimpoint hack mod a Lyon can reliably kill cruisers in smoke just by spray and pray with a spotter plane to help spot the smoke circles.

 

The Lyon is simply a broken ship. It requires a massive buff to accuracy to stop being overpowered against cruisers (and to be less absurdly frustrating when trying to shotgun other BBs at range), preferably with much less ROF, because we know remodelling to make it 12 guns and therefore make the speed saner for the design via  larger engines (we've heard the rage over Normandie speed N times on these forums) is basically impossible with how WG balances things.

EDITED for emphasis on the ROF nerf.

 

Suppose we made a ship with 16x 20-inch guns, 25 second reload, and said that it was balanced at Tier 10 with maximum dispersion of say 350m (Lyon has 249m, scale up with range) and 1.0 sigma, because it's so inaccurate it won't be overpowered (against other battleships). The only thing I can be sure of is that it would either be Russian or an April Fool's event, and that Tier 8-10 cruisers would suffer yet another drop in popularity.

Just about everything you just said is... wrong.

And the secret to hitting an evading target isn't trusting RNG to do it for you, it's predicting where they'll turn and shoot to that point. If you notice the enemy is turning as soon as they see you fire, trick them. Fire only one turret (and don't even fire it based on their current course, fire it towards where you think they'll turn to). Then fire the second turret to a different location in case your first guess was wrong. Rinse and repeat with all remaining turrets. Most people that dodge do so using a pattern. Learn their pattern and use it against them.

Any increase in accuracy is a buff.

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14 minutes ago, FleetAdmiral_Assassin said:

the secret to hitting an evading target isn't trusting RNG to do it for you, it's predicting where they'll turn and shoot to that point. If you notice the enemy is turning as soon as they see you fire, trick them. Fire only one turret (and don't even fire it based on their current course, fire it towards where you think they'll turn to). Then fire the second turret to a different location in case your first guess was wrong. Rinse and repeat with all remaining turrets. Most people that dodge do so using a pattern. Learn their pattern and use it against them.

Any increase in accuracy is a buff.

The current balance of Lyon is, very much, "trusting RNG to do it for you" against fast, evasive targets.

"any increase in accuracy is a buff"... so, has anyone tried playing Halo and fighting the Flood with sniper rifle (modded to fire the same number of shots as a shotgun, but with sniper rifle accuracy) instead of shotgun and/or assault rifle? When you're playing a weapon that can do lol amounts of damage with any one hit to a nimble  paper target, there's a point at which more accuracy stops helping and starts getting in the way.

And most of the Lyons I've had the misfortune of encountering seem to very much enjoy being helped along there.

 

So far the conclusion is that a 16-gun BB is too hard to balance... which happens to work well with the whine threads about Normandie and Lyon speed being insane for the boiler/engine arrangements.

Edited by Guardian54

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16 minutes ago, Guardian54 said:

The current balance of Lyon is, very much, "trusting RNG to do it for you"

"any increase in accuracy is a buff"... so, has anyone tried playing Halo and fighting the Flood with sniper rifle (modded to fire the same number of shots as a shotgun, but with sniper rifle accuracy) instead of shotgun and/or assault rifle? When you're playing a weapon that can do lol amounts of damage with any one hit to a nimble  paper target, there's a point at which more accuracy stops helping and starts getting in the way.

And most of the Lyons I've had the misfortune of encountering seem to very much enjoy being helped along there.

 

So far the conclusion is that a 16-gun BB is too hard to balance.

FIrst off I don't know why you keep trying to bring in examples from other games when those other games offer nothing in common with this one (and anyone who hasn't played those games isn't going to know what you're talking about). But since you have, I'll do so as well.

In every shooter or simulator game I play, I prefer semi-automatic marksman rifles over all other weapons. Even if fighting against superior numbers, I never pick up the shotgun. If I use a weapon capable of full-auto (like a machine gun) I never fire it full auto, instead choosing to tap the trigger and fire single rounds or tight bursts. Why? Because firing 1000 rounds down range and only having 10 hit is no more useful than firing 10 rounds down range and having all 10 hit. Can't count how many times I singlehandedly faced a squad of noobs that just held down their triggers firing full auto (and not being able to hit me), while I pop each one with a single round one after the other because firing semi-auto allows me to aim. Now, in real life there are advantages to suppressive fire (but most games don't take that into account). 

The simple truth is more accuracy is a good thing. Even if two enemy ships are near each other, and an inaccurate spread manages to hit both (instead of just one), it does less damage to each than if both rounds had hit the same target. And how many times do you get attacked in WoWS by 100 enemy battleships all rushing forward grouped together in a tight little ball like a group of Zerg (see I can make other game references too)?

Edited by FleetAdmiral_Assassin

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1 hour ago, Guardian54 said:

So the conclusion is that a 16-gun BB generally throws the balance out the window no matter what is done.

Because, unlike more accurate BBs, he will almost always hit a dodging and kiting cruiser.

And more accuracy makes him too OP against BBs which cannot dodge.

 

Sounds about right.

People can aim in case you forgot. With the dispersion factor being reduced more shots will hit center reticle, and most decent to good players can hit a dodging ship, especially if they do it predictably. 

 

Lyon is meant to be a shotgun. Her low accuracy is compensated by having 16 guns. That's the most on any battleship right now, and likely gonna stay that way for a while. 

 

An accuracy buff is not what Lyon needs, in fact she is perfectly fine in her current state.

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The shotgun effect of wide dispersion just means that the shots are spread out in the target area, which is fairly small in the scheme of things.  The ship still has to be in or around the target area, which means you still need to be able to aim.  By reducing the dispersion, you tighten up the grouping, which means the shots are more likely to hit the ship in the target area, if aimed properly.  Ships like the Conquerer have lots of guns, which causes the spacing between projectiles to be reduced compared to ships with fewer guns.  The last thing you want to do is reduce the spacing between projectiles.  It would make a well placed shot a devastating strike for a lot of ships.

I know when I fire at ships in the distance, I don't wish for greater dispersion so that I have a better chance of hitting my target.  I wish for tighter dispersion, so my aimed shots have more projectiles on my target.  So, please nerf all my BBs by decreasing my dispersion.

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2 hours ago, FleetAdmiral_Assassin said:

In every shooter or simulator game I play, I prefer semi-automatic marksman rifles over all other weapons. Even if fighting against superior numbers, I never pick up the shotgun. If I use a weapon capable of full-auto (like a machine gun) I never fire it full auto, instead choosing to tap the trigger and fire single rounds or tight bursts. Why? Because firing 1000 rounds down range and only having 10 hit is no more useful than firing 10 rounds down range and having all 10 hit. Can't count how many times I singlehandedly faced a squad of noobs that just held down their triggers firing full auto (and not being able to hit me), while I pop each one with a single round one after the other because firing semi-auto allows me to aim. Now, in real life there are advantages to suppressive fire (but most games don't take that into account).

I remember in Battlefield: Vietnam I almost always picked the Assault classes that could zoom in reliably (read: usually M16). And yes, I only fired one or two bullets each time barring sudden close-quarters encounter.

But I once heard the M60 (the LAW anti-tank subclass has this for its primary) has negative dispersion upon firing when prone, which means the longer the burst the more accurate? I never actually tested this claim in-game though.

 

Never seen a Lyon hit more than one ship in a spread. But obviously having his aim point 150m off my cruiser (as most of the rounds landed there) and still eating a citadel through the stern is something I find distinctly un-fun.

Then again, given the Shchors has an anchor and chain directly lodged up a round hole in the very center of the stern, perhaps I should stop driving it if I don't enjoy surprise intrusions up the stern.

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