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JohnPJones

Should the pheonix stay?

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I’ve wondered for a long time if the pheonix deserves to remain in game.

i feel like it’s a step down from the St. Louis and too similar to the Omaha.

wasnt there a late WWI cruiser class that actually existed that would fit T4 better?

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No there isn't, that's the problem.

The fact is that the US developed no cruisers at all from about 1908 through the end of WWI basically focusing on the construction of Battleships and Destroyers.  This leaves a huge gap in cruiser development between the last of the US armored cruisers developed and the advent of the Omaha in the 1920's.

This is where Phoenix steps in.  She represents a design study conducted by the US Navy during WWI with the objective to construct a modern Scout/Light cruiser to supplement it's aging cruiser fleet.  This study would eventually lead to the Omaha's in the 1920's.  The Phoenix herself (in her final form) represents a stage of the design which almost became finalized before someone insisted on her carrying the two twin turrets used on the Omaha to enhance end on fire power.  As such the Phoenix, in her various guises, does represent the only late WWI cruiser design available. 

Edited by BB3_Oregon_Steel
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Phoenix works really well.  She's an ideal trainer ship for cruisers.

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Phoenix is a capable gunboat, especially with the improved match making for tier 4. Hold LMB, molest A and D, win.

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I don’t see how it’s a good trainer ship except you’ll learn quickly not to go broadside on...

the St. Louis is better in pretty much every other respect except what? AA? (At work so can’t check now) and maybe maneuverability?

 

St Louis has better armor and more guns of larger caliber.

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I rebought the Phoenix a few months back and she is hilarious when you know how to play the game

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15 minutes ago, JohnPJones said:

I don’t see how it’s a good trainer ship except you’ll learn quickly not to go broadside on...

the St. Louis is better in pretty much every other respect except what? AA? (At work so can’t check now) and maybe maneuverability?

 

St Louis has better armor and more guns of larger caliber.

Phoenix is faster, has fewer but better guns, longer gun range, much better AA, and is one of the few US Navy cruisers with torpedoes.

The only thing that the St. Louis has going for it is secondaries, better armor, and it no longer has Kongo's shooting at it. It has to suffer with Myogi's, which probably won't hit it. Everything else at those tiers is 12 inch guns that probably won't simply lol-pen you.

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37 minutes ago, SgtBeltfed said:

Phoenix is faster, has fewer but better guns, longer gun range, much better AA, and is one of the few US Navy cruisers with torpedoes.

The only thing that the St. Louis has going for it is secondaries, better armor, and it no longer has Kongo's shooting at it. It has to suffer with Myogi's, which probably won't hit it. Everything else at those tiers is 12 inch guns that probably won't simply lol-pen you.

Personally I’d take the St. Louis over a pheonix 

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I sold mine to make room in my port, but make no mistake, the Phoenix is a good ship. She's baby's first CL, as opposed to the CA of the St. Louis. It's a bit of a whiplash moment when you first get her to be sure, going from the slow beefy 14-gun MG that is the St. Louis to what is essentially a fat destroyer with better range, but I expect that more people are going to be looking at her more favorably after the cruiser split. A Phoenix in the right hands is a monster to deal with at those tiers, no doubt about it. But then again not everyone prefers CLs. Me? I'm never letting go of my Nurnberg and Konigsberg.

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6 hours ago, Landsraad said:

I sold mine to make room in my port, but make no mistake, the Phoenix is a good ship. She's baby's first CL, as opposed to the CA of the St. Louis. It's a bit of a whiplash moment when you first get her to be sure, going from the slow beefy 14-gun MG that is the St. Louis to what is essentially a fat destroyer with better range, but I expect that more people are going to be looking at her more favorably after the cruiser split. A Phoenix in the right hands is a monster to deal with at those tiers, no doubt about it. But then again not everyone prefers CLs. Me? I'm never letting go of my Nurnberg and Konigsberg.

I personally do prefer light cruisers, but maybe I should specify I prefer rapid fire cruisers,  I just am not a fan of the pheonix, but guess I’m alone in that lol

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7 hours ago, Landsraad said:

I sold mine to make room in my port, but make no mistake, the Phoenix is a good ship. She's baby's first CL, as opposed to the CA of the St. Louis. It's a bit of a whiplash moment when you first get her to be sure, going from the slow beefy 14-gun MG that is the St. Louis to what is essentially a fat destroyer with better range, but I expect that more people are going to be looking at her more favorably after the cruiser split. A Phoenix in the right hands is a monster to deal with at those tiers, no doubt about it. But then again not everyone prefers CLs. Me? I'm never letting go of my Nurnberg and Konigsberg.

The St. Louis is a Protected Cruiser. To be a CA, you need 8 inch guns or bigger.

Also, I don't remember the Pheonix well enough, but if it can get it's offside forward guns to shoot across the bow far enough, it might be able to out shoot a St. Louis as well, while staying properly angled.

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16 hours ago, JohnPJones said:

I don’t see how it’s a good trainer ship except you’ll learn quickly not to go broadside on...

the St. Louis is better in pretty much every other respect except what? AA? (At work so can’t check now) and maybe maneuverability?

 

St Louis has better armor and more guns of larger caliber.

Not really. 

The St Louis is a tough ship capable of taking damage which would send any other cruiser in any of the tiers near her to the bottom.  That's because she's the only armored cruiser in the game.  All of the other lower tiered cruisers are "Protected" or "Light Cruiser" which have a fraction of the St. Louis's protective scheme.  

Every other cruiser until you start reaching around Tier VI has only a fraction of St. Louis's durability and needs to rely on their speed and their ability to be elsewhere when the shells aimed at them arrive for their survival.  St. Louis really isn't capable of doing that well and needs to depend on her protective scheme more.  As such sh plays more like a mini battleship than she does any of the cruisers near her tier which makes her a terrible trainer for other low to mid tier cruisers, which is probably why the transition from St. Louis to Phoenix can be so traumatic for players moving up the US cruiser line (kind of like the transition from the well protected Cleveland at Tier 6 to the virtually unprotected Pennsacola at tier 7 can be). 

Just as another point, yes the St. Louis has more guns but they are the same size as those on the Phoenix and have a shorter maximum range.

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3 hours ago, SgtBeltfed said:

The St. Louis is a Protected Cruiser. To be a CA, you need 8 inch guns or bigger.

Incorrect. 

The St. Louis is an Armored Cruiser, not a Heavy Cruiser or a Protected Cruiser.  The difference is in the definition of these types which are used for classification purposes. 

A Protected Cruiser is a cruiser who's armored protection consists of an Armored Deck which protects the machinery and buoyancy of the ship.  This deck tends to start on one side of the vessel just below the waterline and then sloping upwards to arch over the engine spaces and then sloping down again to meet the hull just below the waterline of the opposite sides.  These decks were often supplemented by forward and aft armored bulkheads which sealed off the ends to create an armored box protecting the engines. Think of it as a ship who's only armored protection is it's Citadel.   

An Armored Cruiser also has an armored deck but adds an armored belt along the ship's sides which extends both above and below the water line and can extend upwards to include protection for guns and control spaces further up on the ship.  The St. Louis carries a 4 inch armored belt in addition to her armored deck which makes her fit the definition of a Armored not a Protected Cruiser.  Alternatively there was a variant of the Armored Cruiser called a "Belted Cruiser" which applied to vessels with an Armored Belt but wherein that belt was truncated or not providing full coverage and if you want to be technical the St. Louis might fit into that definition but that's sort of splitting hairs. 

Armored cruisers carried everything from 6 inch guns up to, in a couple of extreme cases, 12 inch guns so the size of the guns carried was not a deciding factor in their classification. 

Heavy Cruisers did not actually exist as a type until they were defined by the terms of the Washington Naval treaty in the 1920's.  That treaty set the maximum size of the guns of this type at 8 inches and allowed the ships to displace no more than 10,000 tons.  While the 8 inch gun was an upper limit allowed for the type (and 6 inch guns for the Light Cruiser type) there were several cruisers most notably the Kirov class with her 7.1 inch guns which also fit the definition of a heavy cruiser but did not carry 8 inch guns.  

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7 minutes ago, BB3_Oregon_Steel said:

Incorrect. 

The St. Louis is an Armored Cruiser, not a Heavy Cruiser or a Protected Cruiser.  The difference is in the definition of these types which are used for classification purposes. 

 

Apparently, we're both wrong, https://www.history.navy.mil/research/histories/ship-histories/danfs/s/st-louis-iv.html

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Just now, SgtBeltfed said:

Not really.  The article you quoted indicated that she was a "Semi-Armored Cruiser" which fits the definition of a "Belted Cruiser" which I mentioned and described in my post which also indicated that one could regard the St. Louis as this type, which the author of this article obviously did. 

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16 hours ago, SgtBeltfed said:

Phoenix is faster, has fewer but better guns, longer gun range, much better AA, and is one of the few US Navy cruisers with torpedoes.

The only thing that the St. Louis has going for it is secondaries, better armor, and it no longer has Kongo's shooting at it. It has to suffer with Myogi's, which probably won't hit it. Everything else at those tiers is 12 inch guns that probably won't simply lol-pen you.

My russian bias disagrees

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5 minutes ago, BB3_Oregon_Steel said:

Not really.  The article you quoted indicated that she was a "Semi-Armored Cruiser" which fits the definition of a "Belted Cruiser" which I mentioned and described in my post which also indicated that one could regard the St. Louis as this type, which the author of this article obviously did. 

She was also ordered as a protected cruiser, and is normally listed as one. When I think of armored cruisers, I always think in lines of Georgios Averof 

5 minutes ago, JessieTheKitty said:

My russian bias disagrees

The Imperator Nikolai I is an Op monster to everyone, and restricted matchmaking only made the problem worse.

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1 minute ago, SgtBeltfed said:

She was also ordered as a protected cruiser, and is normally listed as one. When I think of armored cruisers, I always think in lines of Georgios Averof 

The Imperator Nikolai I is an Op monster to everyone, and restricted matchmaking only made the problem worse.

Yeh, but has been slightly nerfed with all the other op ships being released

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1 hour ago, SgtBeltfed said:

She was also ordered as a protected cruiser, and is normally listed as one. When I think of armored cruisers, I always think in lines of Georgios Averof 

Yes, she was originally ordered as an improved version of the Olympia but her design was considerably expanded (from about 6,000 tons to nearly 10,000) and her armored protection substantially increased so that when she was completed, the term "protected cruiser" no longer applied to her.  The US Navy kept the designation but mostly to divert the attention of a very budget oriented Congress which had only authorized the funds for a protected cruiser and was concerned about the power and size creep  and cost of US warships.   

Yes the Georgious Averof was one of the last generation of armored cruisers constructed which carried not only a main battery of 10 inch guns, but a heavy secondary battery of 7.5 inch guns mounted in twin wing turrets.  The St. Louis's closest counterpart is the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monmouth-class_cruiser.  She's the St Louis's contemporary entering service in the same year with a similar main battery and a generally similar protective scheme although it's armored belt extended higher and further along the water line that was the case with St. Louis's.  Of course the heaviest of the type were these https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_battlecruiser_Ibuki so there was a great deal of variation on the type. 

Edited by BB3_Oregon_Steel

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