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LittleWhiteMouse

Premium Ship Preview: Asashio 0.7.2

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6 minutes ago, Carrier_Lexington said:

Can I ask, though... why specialize it entirely to targetting battleships and the rare Aircraft Carrier? I know it sucks to be hit by DWTs in a cruiser, but that's what Hydroacoustic Search is for.

  It just seems like it's encouraging BBs to sit at the back and snipe; something that Wargaming have said multiple times that they want to fix. And I honestly feel like it's not a problem with Asashio herself or any ship really; it's a problem with the "Arena Team Deathmatch" style of game that doesn't truly represent fleet battles, which were much more "objective"-oriented; most-often about securing a path for advance so that the warships could provide fire-support to ground forces a long distance away.

 

This is why I suggested a more "Frontlines" approach last December which is much more about achieving objectives and advancing rather than just damaging or killing the enemy ships.

Maybe they should make the BBs spawn way up front and DDs way in back.

3BB7A5E8-280F-4391-8B0A-CFF40AE6BADF.gif

Edited by Capt_of_Satisfaction

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To be entirely honest, I think Asashio is fine in her current state. It seems to me like everyone believes that ONE SHIP is going to be dominating entire games and blah blah blah. It's not. Only the people who are good at torping targets are going to get that kind of ludicrous damage that you see in Youtube videos of the Asashio. It is INSANELY hard to hit something with multiple torps at 20km range (Or 16km it really doesn't matter) If you hit a ship at 20km range, then that dude must have been sailing in a straight line for a LONG time. Which means he is an idiot. We don't hear people complain when BB's get 7 kills and 250k+ damage. In fact BB's at Asashio's tier usually can get over 100k easy. And I'm saying this cause I can do it and I'm dogcrap at BB's compared to my dds or even my cruisers. Hell the Conqueror caused this same kind of storm and yet now the storm has died. It's still really powerful, but once again, its not a "You see three every game ship." The Asashio will be the same way. If anything it will be seen even less cause you have to pay money and it is a T8 which means she will be like 50$ or more, not something that everyone can pick up easily. And on top of that, you could get the Tirpitz or some other T8 which is powerful and it probably would be more rewarding in terms of fun to play. People are scared that the 20km shima torp nightmare from the beginning will happen again. But you have to remember the people driving those shima's had paid to get to play the game back in beta and learn it and invest lots of time into it. So when Shima came out, the noobs got sunk a lot by the pro Shima drivers because it was either Shima or Gear to choose from and those who had it were good at them. Now we have lots of options for ships to play. Not every Asashio driver is going to be an annihilation machine, only those who are experts at dds should be able to do that. And they should't be deprived of those kinds of game because they worked hard to master their art.

Sure the deepwater torps on Asashio are really powerful. But in reality, what is the difference between that and the Conq HE? Or Yamato's ability to citadel anything through the bow? Or the Des Moines combo radar/ROF? Or any other number of powerful things in this game? Practically none. The torps can only hit BB's and Carriers. Fine that makes sense, carriers are rare, so that means you can only target BB's. The bb's that are going to get hit are the ones who aren't paying attention to the game. In EVERY video I have seen of the Asashio so far and every game I have seen the Asashio the BB's have been completely without cruiser escort. And if you are without cruiser escort, OF COURSE your going to get tagged. Just today I got 183K on my 16km torp shima and all of it was unescorted BB's that thought they could do everything themselves. If you have a DM or a Mino or anything next to you, you will be fine. If you take a stray torpedo, oh well, we aren't all blessed with torpedobeats every game.

And for the record, I've been in several games with Asashio's now. Only one got over 150k in damage. Most players can get that easy in any cruiser or BB. I do it daily in the Mino.

So her torps are strong, great. She has the best conceal at T8 just like Harekaze and Kagero. Great. That's about it. At her tier her AA is useless because its a dd. Her guns, while they were buffed, are still painfully slow to reload and turn, which still puts her at a disadvantage in a gunfight. She is outrun by all other dds at her tier except for her sisters Kagero and Harekaze. Her inability to attack perhaps her biggest threat, the cruiser, leaves much to be desired. And she has a very bad HP pool that for most people necessitates Survivability Expert. On top of that, weak armor, so your likely to lose all your HP just by someone spitting at the thing.

Most games you'll see about 5 battleships. You almost never run into games where there are more than that (I certainly don't) Most of the time, you'll be able to actually target 2-3. The others will be on the other side of the map. And mind you, these maps are not ocean. Sure the torps go far, but can they go through islands like radar? No. so you will have to position well to actually use your torps and again, you will only be able to shoot certain targets. To do that, you will have to deal with the enemy attacking you using their dds, spotting you with radar/planes etc. And if BB's are complaining that they are being ambushed by Asashio's, then think to yourself "Whats the difference? Regardless of what dd surprised me, I was gonna die either way." On top of that, all it takes is a destroyer the Asashio can't see to sail over the torps and bingo they are spotted till they run out, which if you are trying to shoot through an enemy attack force, happens more often than you'd expect. And since MM won't be fixed, it's likely that this ship will end up in T10 every time (I never get T6 to 8 anymore)

They say that this ship is no fun to play against from a battleships point of view. And they're right it isn't. But you as a battleship can citadel/devstrike anyone. Other bb's, mostly CA's, and dds when they turn bow on (or you get tons of overpens) Is that fun? Of course not. In fact, it's no different. Most battleships have been given counters to dds in the form of manual secondaries, amazing hydros, or good maneuverability. It takes a very long time to wear down a battleship. Usually it requires skill to out duel one or a focus fire from your team. Asashio only has her conceal to defend itself. Minotaurs and DM's can tear this thing to shreds and that won't be very fun for the dd player. 

I think Asashio needs to be implemented as is. She's a small but powerful glass cannon. It will be a challenge to fight her and even more of a challenge to play her. On top of that, it's a premium. IT SHOULD be more powerful than a tech tree ship because I am paying real hard cash to get it. I wouldn't want a garbage boat that I could get the same thing just on the tech tree for free. It needs to have a quality and barring all Japanese dd's having torpedo reload booster (Which they should because it's kind of the Japanese ships main thing) this is the next best thing. If they made the torps hit cruisers, then you could just get a Yueyang and do the same thing. Sure it's a BB killer. So if you see one or more Asashio's on the enemy team and your a battleship, make sure your next to the nearest gaydar ship and you'll be fine. Ships in real war never get far on their own. Escort is the best way to go, so if your the BB and you lance off from the fleet and die to the Asashio, it's your fault. And once again, realistically it could have been a Gear or some other dd that could do the exact same thing. And if you get sunk and you played the way you were supposed too. Tough luck life sucks. You can't win every game no matter how much damage you do. I'm not trying to rant, but I'm trying to look at it from everyone's perspective.

I'm going to relish the challenge of fighting Asashio's with my Yamato, and i'll enjoy it in the process cause it's fun as all hell to fight something better than you. Then one day you can defeat it yourself, which gets you even more good memories.

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I’ve already said my peace about this garbage ship. If Wargaming thinks that this trash is the answer to anything, then there’s no hope for the future of this game. If the mission is to get people to play other ship classes, then buff the other classes. Releasing a monstrously unbalanced ship like this will only hurt the game and drive people away, but hey, Wargaming is nothing if not self destructive.

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On 3/6/2018 at 11:30 AM, LittleWhiteMouse said:
The following is a discussion regarding Asashio, a ship kindly provided to me by Wargaming. This ship is still undergoing testing and may change significantly before release. 
 
 
 To say that Asashio has attracted a lot of attention would be an understatement.  Social media is abuzz with, on the whole, largely negative press regarding this upcoming release.  Normally, I wouldn't take notice of a large undercurrent of negativity found on Reddit, Discord, Youtube, Facebook and the official Forums.  However, this is above the norm.  Oh, it's not a poop-storm in the same manner as Alabama-gate last year, but it's rare that I see a ship so universally panned by critics.  The contrarian in me wants to immediately rush to Asashio's defense.  That way I could be Hipster-Mouse and claim that I liked Asashio before it was cool to do so.
 
 YXncAJp.gif
Poseurs.  Get on my level.
 
 The ship is now in its third iteration of live play testing, with design apparently zeroing in on publishing the ship as-is with her controversial torpedo armament.  Though I am usually loathe to invest much into a ship still in play testing, I thought it prudent to comment a little on Asashio's current state of development. 
 
  Reveal hidden contents
Asashio 1.0
Asashio began life as a near-clone of Kagero, the tier VIII Japanese tech-tree destroyer when upgraded. She had the following announced statistics:
 
 YTxX8Wb.png
 
There were differences when compared to Kagero. The more notable were the following:
  • Main Battery Range: +1.5km
  • Main Battery Reload Time: +2.0s
  • Air Detection: +300m
  • AA Power: -26dps

PROS: Better torpedo armament than a stock Kagero.
CONS: Worse than a fully upgraded version of Kagero, especially in regards to her guns.

Asashio wasn't always controversial.  Her initial release onto the live servers as something veterans of World of Tanks would find familiar for a premium vehicle.  While better than the stock version of a tier VIII destroyer, she was worse than her fully upgraded one.  She had no gimmicks to speak of.  I had largely dismissed her as acceptable but uninteresting -- she would serve as a commander trainer, but HSF Harekaze would remain the much better purchase between the two tier VIII premium Japanese destroyers unless you specifically wanted harder hitting torpedoes. With the High School Fleet crossover due to end in September of 2018 by my current estimates, this seemed acceptable to me.  Asashio would be a work-horse premium, perfectly acceptable for commander training.

But, the community did what they usually did when faced with a perfectly acceptable new ship bereft of game-breaking gimmicks:  they complained..  So, Wargaming made changes.
 
  Reveal hidden contents
Asashio 2.0
Wargaming took the initial build and changed the following:
 
  • Asashio no longer had to choose between taking a Smoke Generator or Torpedo Reload Booster. The latter was moved to a fourth consumable slot, allowing her to use both (!).
  • Her Torpedoes were changed to a Deep Water variant that could only attack Battleships and Aircraft Carriers.
  • Torpedo Range doubled from 10km to 20km.
  • Torpedo Detection Range was reduced by 1km from 1.7km to 0.7km.
 
PROS: Monstrously powerful against battleships with her ridiculous range.
CONS: Engaging cruisers and destroyers was largely limited to abusing spotting mechanics for your allies or firing with your anemic guns.

Source: World of Warships Facebook Devblog from February 2nd, 2018.

This is where the controversy began -- namely focused around Asashio's very powerful and very specific torpedo armament.  My experiences play testing Asashio demonstrated that this build was very strong against battleships but very weak at dealing with destroyers and cruisers (though not entirely incapable).  While aircraft carriers could be engaged, it's rare for high tier destroyers to spot an enemy CV, never mind attack them.  I only managed to sink two in over thirty games played. Thus, this became a ship with a singular purpose:  to destroy battleships.

 She excelled at this, as well you can imagine, provided you could slip through the screens of picket ships and aircraft.    While it was possible to land "Hail Mary" hits from the extremes of her range, this was largely only possible during the opening minutes of a match while players were still moving their ships into position.  Like most IJN destroyers, guaranteeing hits required Asashio to get much closer -- usually within 10km of an intended target to minimize the impact of attempts to dodge.  Whenever possible, I tried to shrink this range down even further to as close to 6km as I dared.  Coupled with Torpedo Acceleration, this would ensure the doom of a target battleship.
 
 AHJvOMF.jpg
 My Angry Youtuber Review of version 2.0 of Asashio from patch 0.7.1.
GARBAGE- The boat is unbalanced, not fun to play and weak. The ship desperately needs some buffs or some quality of life changes.
Mehbote - An average ship. Has strengths and weaknesses. Doesn't need buffs to be viable however she's not going to be considered optimal.
Gudbote - A powerful ship, often one of the best ships at a given role within its tier. Usually considered optimal for a given task.
OVERPOWERED - The boat is unbalanced and powerful. Typically she's either horrible to play against or she redefines the meta entirely.
The community now faced a devil of their own making (be careful what you wish for).  There was really no counterplay for enemy battleships targeted by Asashio. This version of Asashio, though overspecialized, was incredibly powerful.  The only thing that kept her from being disgustingly overpowered, in my opinion, was the inherent difficulties of trying to sway a match beyond making battleships die. 
 
  Reveal hidden contents

Asashio 3.0
Asashio received further updates nearly three weeks later.  This is the current test version of the ship which may be encountered on live servers as of this publication date.  She received the following changes:

  • Main battery reload time decreased from 9 to 7.05 seconds;
  • Turret rotation speed increased from 6 to 6.9 deg./sec;
  • Torpedo detectability increased from 0.7 to 0.9 km.
  • Camouflage turned blue.

PROS:  Increased functionality of her main battery armament, bringing her up to par with a fully upgraded Kagero.
CONS:  Improvements to guns is only marginal and does not make her capable of challenging true gunships.

Source:  World of Warships Facebook Devblog.  February 20th, 2018.

What I found hilarious was how Wargaming doubled down on the design decisions.  I shouldn't have been surprised given how many people chose to focus feedback around her guns of all things.  Asashio saw a significant buff to her main battery and her torpedoes had their detection tweaked.  The approximate reaction time for Asashio's torpedoes jumped from 3.9s to 5.0s -- long enough to squeeze in your favourite expletive before they struck home.  Her artillery was now on par with Kagero's own. In her current design build, she could be released as-is and I would not be terribly surprised.

Despite the limitations of Asashio's torpedo armament, Asashio is very influential.  She has the ability to strike battleships before they finish leaving the deployment area in the opening minutes of a match.  This is especially dangerous to slower battleships found at tiers VI and VII which often struggle to reach (never mind exceed) 25 knots.  I regularly attacked ships before they realized they were even in range.  While it's unlikely to sink a healthy battleship with these early Hail-Mary shots, landing even a couple of hits had a significant impact.  Damaged ships are less likely to commit fully to engagements and play more passively.
 
 This first-strike ability is Asashio's greatest strength and it's the easiest way for her to sway a battle before it even gets started.  While this type of attack isn't possible on all maps within a rotation, it does necessitate players to modify their normal behaviours.  Anti-destroyer tactics must be exercised even within the opening minutes of a match.  Those that do not change their habits have only themselves to blame.
 
After deployment, Asashio's power wanes and she must look for targets of opportunity.  Invariably, these will be battleships on the front lines. The extremes of her range may allow her to attempt to take pot-shots at battleships camping in the back, but realistically, these shots never amount to much.  With the screen of friendly ships and aircraft, volleys bypassing the front lines are spotted and easy to avoid.  As much as we would all love for Asashio to be the fix for battleships humping the map borders, that just won't happen.
 
 feFxH8Y.png
Gonna need me some binoculars.
 
The argument here is that Asashio promotes more passive play.  She seems designed to punish aggressive battleships that dare spearhead a charge.  Even those sitting behind a screen of destroyers and cruisers are not entirely safe.
 
The easiest way to land hits on these targets is for Asashio to be aggressive -- up on the front lines herself.  This not only facilitates landing clusters of torpedo hits (instead of singular fish) but it extends out vision for her team.  This is much higher risk, though, and few players seem willing to take said risks.  While veterans and unicum are more likely to press the envelope on what can and cannot be achieved with this new destroyer, there's understandable concern that Asashio will promote passive play not only from enemy battleships but from Asashio herself.  The fear is that in the hands of the commons, Asashio is designed to sit behind friendly ships and fire her torpedoes at medium to long range, doing nothing otherwise to assist in base capture or vision projection.
 
 This isn't the full extent of bad habits and bad plays Asashio can make.  It pays not to under estimate the extent to which allies will go to avoid a scrap.  The reach of her torpedoes encourages all sorts of unfortunate decisions, like "flanking manoeuvres" down the extremes of the map borders.
 
At worst, Asashio will actively diminish what little dynamic play still exists within the high tier meta. 
 
Ar4Mlkm.jpg
North is one of the maps where Asashio can deliver significant damage in the opening minutes of a match -- particularly if a battleship makes the mistake of moving from a western deployment towards the east.
 
Call me a conspiracy theorist, but Asashio feels to me like another shot at reducing battleship populations.  This may (or may not) be Wargaming's intent -- one of the thousands of cuts necessary to encourage players to diversify away from BBs.  Specifically, Asashio makes cruisers the most attractive choice to counter her given the last wave of buffs.  Her guns are a credible threat to enemy destroyers now.  I could make a case for Asashio similarly limiting the impact of destroyers with her smaller toolkit.  Destroyers are arguably the second most influential ship type in the game in Random Battles behind aircraft carriers and Asashio doesn't have the same versatility as many of her peers.
 
Fortunately (or unfortunately, depending upon your point of view), Asashio is unlikely to present the numbers necessary to shake up the meta to any significant degree.  Encounters with the ship may be frequent at first but the limited scope of her available targets will reduce her popularity.  To those dreading Asashio's game play, this is poor consolation, where any encounter will be more markedly remembered than those with her absence.  It will be up to the individual player to evaluate how these one-off meetings affects their overall perception of the game.  Currently a lot more power and influence are attributed to Asashio than she deserves.
 
 The threat of an Asashio is no different than the threat of any other destroyer capable of firing torpedoes from stealth.  Battleships are loathe to push towards areas where they know torpedo-boats are lurking.  Aggressive battleships are the ones that get picked off by torpedoes first.  There will always be "bad" destroyers that refuse to contest capture points, that make ridiculous end-run flanking manoeuvres or that hide behind their allies.  Asashio does not change any of this, nor does she exaggerate an already prevalent problem.  If Asashio has a fault, it's that she facilitates said behaviour and may even reward it with improved survival and damage totals than would otherwise be possible in other destroyers.
 
I have had a lot of fun playing Asashio, though I recognize the fun was entirely one-sided.  She's a stereotype of Japanese destroyer game play, exaggerated to almost comedic levels.  She's hilariously inept at dealing with cruiser and destroyer gunships and ridiculously over-tuned when facing battleships.  Asashio feels rewarding when I can make her perform not because of myopic play style but in spite of it.  I challenge myself to push caps, harass destroyers and provide vision to bully dangerous cruisers.  I recognize that I am the exception and that doesn't blind me to her flaws.
 
I am torn with this ship.  I cannot argue that she's not a lot of fun to play.  But then, it's also fun to play Atlanta or Belfast when you finally catch out an enemy destroyer at close range.  It's also fun to instant-delete cruisers with battleships.  I recognize that the amusement is entirely one-sided, though.  No one likes feeling powerless in a gaming situation.
 
The argument of counter play gets raised often, and let's be fair:  If you're playing a battleship other than a high-tier German, Duke of York or Missouri, there's no counter play to Asashio.  You are entirely reliant upon your allies to keep you safe.   However, this isn't new.  This is the same problem any battleships faces against almost any other destroyer within their matchmaking spread (with some loser exceptions).  Arguments that Asashio's torpedo reaction time is too short to respond are facetious -- unless you're already on the alert, responding belatedly to torpedo threats will minimize damage at best and just make you look stupid at worse.
 
I hope Asashio does evolve further with a significant reduction in torpedo range.  I am not going to lose sleep if she gets released as is.  However, you can bet I will be changing my play style if I see her on the enemy roster.  For that reason, and that reason alone, she gets the following rating:
 
QnjYnFB.jpg
GARBAGE- The boat is unbalanced, not fun to play and weak. The ship desperately needs some buffs or some quality of life changes.
Mehbote - An average ship. Has strengths and weaknesses. Doesn't need buffs to be viable however she's not going to be considered optimal.
Gudbote - A powerful ship, often one of the best ships at a given role within its tier. Usually considered optimal for a given task.
OVERPOWERED - The boat is unbalanced and powerful. Typically she's either horrible to play against or she redefines the meta entirely.
 

General question: why do you provide a review for a ship before it is complete?   If it can change radically from now until release what is the point?  Do ships generally not change much in that time? Thanks.

Edit: Oh: I missed some of your intro. 

Edited by Viva_Palestine

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Asashio is the invention of the Devil!

I can’t wait to get one. But then I sailed nekkid Yugumo with the fast 8km torps and Reload booster (no smoke) before the 12km torps had their concealment buffed and became usable. 

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On 3/26/2018 at 6:19 PM, Viva_Palestine said:

General question: why do you provide a review for a ship before it is complete?   If it can change radically from now until release what is the point?  Do ships generally not change much in that time? Thanks.

Edit: Oh: I missed some of your intro. 

General question: why did you quote the entire 3 billion word essay in your 4 sentence post?

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Ran into a community contributor in an  Asashio today while out in my Republique and definitely changed my game a bit. As a DD main, I rarely get torped when driving a BB in open water; I WASD frequently and have very good instincts for where and when torps will come from. Having read this, I expected torps early and often. 

North map, my team spawned on the top side, I spawned between where A and B would be (although it was standard battle.) Angled in to cross the front of our cap rather than join the predictable lemming across to west side, and had a hunch the Asashio would be torping down the channel where B is. Varied speed, cut in toward B to be closer to bow-on to thread torps. I was right, and against most DDs I wouldn't have eaten a torp. Against Asashio? Still ate one. Didn't see it until it was too late, even approaching at a very oblique angle I just didn't have time to cut the small amount to the right I needed to dodge it. 

He ended up sinking two or three of our ships (that one torp was the only one I got hit with though :) )although we still won; we had two very good gunboat DDs on our team who finally cornered him late-game. It would have likely been a landslide win without the Asashio, but he made it very close. That's not all because of the boat; most of the CCs are better than average if not very good players. And I'm sure most of our team wasn't informed of the Asashio and didn't take precautions, which helped him get his kills. But definitely gave me an idea of what to expect and how Asashio can be deadly even to BB players who pride themselves on their anti-DD counterplay. She's gonna be a good boat, and a lot of bad or complacent BB players are going to be raging on forums when they release her. :D

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I'm gonna buy this boat and just spam torps from behind my team and show WG what I think of it and their new anti BB agenda.  they'll get my money though so they'll still be happy!

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On 4/3/2018 at 11:47 AM, thebigblue said:

General question: why did you quote the entire 3 billion word essay in your 4 sentence post?

Yes: would not want to fill the forum with unnecessary chaff...

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