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Premium Ship Preview: Asashio 0.7.2

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As a battleship main who almost never plays DDs. . .

I think I might pick up this DD.  It sounds well suited to my aggressive playstyle, and might be good to have in my inventory for those stupid missions that require you get get X number of torpedo hits.

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2 hours ago, Canadatron said:

Carl, Carl, Carl....

I pride myself on being our local population Natzee and what you are saying isn't true.

Populations at high tiers are, in order of greatest #of plays to least: BB, CA, DD. ............................CV

I don't disagree on your evaluation of why the CA pop isn't higher (why play CA when BB does it just as good and lives longer doing it) and of course we have to keep in mind this is for your average player, and the average everyday WoWs dood doesn't have the ability to play CA acceptably at end game so they just don't run em. They'd rather run Missouri, and throw darts all match hoping for that bullseye.

 

I can only report the MM i see, and 5 BB's 4-5 DD's and 2-3 Cruisers with the odd CV thrown in is pretty normal these days. Why thats happening when supposedly destroyers are played slightly less often than cruisers, (i noted further up that i'd ran the numbers btw), i'm not entirely sure of. It's probably related to a combination of divisions players pulled into rarer but still present T9 and T8 maximum matches, but we don;t have the data to really work all of that out.

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3 hours ago, Bill_Halsey said:

I'm always paranoid about that. That's why I keep one eye one eye on the mini map to see who is broadside to me

T8-T10 CL's/CA's are already powerful in their own right. they have damage control parties like BB's, high ROF and consumables.  More maneuverable than a BB. If you  keep the fight to outside 15km, you can burn a BB to the waterline.  

Outside of Atago and Edinburgh, no other T8 cruisers have access to repair like BBs. That's why T8 for cruiser lines are considered a wall that many don't bother grinding through. It's just too tough for the average player to do reasonably well and advance on to the much better T9 and T10 cruisers in a timely manner. Plus, most T8 cruisers also lack the range to keep fights against BBs outside of 15km.

Also hence why it's a topic of discussion that's fairly common around here. T8 cruisers need a nudge of some sort to make them more appealing and easier to do well in. T9 doesn't, outside of one or two exceptions and T10 is fine.

Edited by GhostSwordsman
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20 hours ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Looks nice enough except for the Deepwater Torps part, those are the reason I Do Not use Pan Asian line is because so many enemy kills are DDs when using Torps, so not being able to hurt enemy DDs with Torps is a big disadvantage.

I win 90% of the time in 1 on 1 DD match ups with my Chung Mu. The only problem ships are Russian. The vast majority of DD players have trouble aiming at rapidly moving DDs, and this takes time they could be firing their guns. This isn't to say that I don't die to torps sometimes, either too close, or I made an error, but I hunt DDs in my Chung Mu. 

Only Cruisers are a problem. They are the hardest to kill because they can turn well and have hydro.

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9 hours ago, GhostSwordsman said:

Yeah, just earlier today I bow tanked an Alsace in my Baltimore. Poor guy even tried switching to HE as well, but since I could fire about 3 times as fast as him, he still got burnt to the waterline. Poor thing.

To be honest, I don't think it's really a bad thing that the top tier cruisers can almost go toe to toe with battleships and come out on top. It's a great nod to reality, where the cruiser platform evolved and continued to remain relevant, and the battleship platform didn't or couldn't. T10 ships are supposed to represent the pinnacle in technology of that era for each type. By that time, cruisers were very much like battleships in terms of firepower and even survivability, while still maintaining better maneuverability, flexibility, and utility. Sure, people will always have this notion that battleships should trump cruisers because "I haz big gunz and much armors", but the reality of it is that by then, the lines between those two types was getting rather blurred.

Cruiser heavy matches are a ton of fun(well, maybe not so much for DDs), and the flow of the game is extremely dynamic and fluid. Perhaps if T8 cruisers get a little nudge to make them more appealing, and people start to realize that high tier cruisers are pretty powerful in their own right, then maybe the cruiser population will see a large enough increase where matches can be fun again because the majority of them are cruiser heavy.

 

Missed this earlier. Realism doesn't even remotely factor into this, so i'm not sure why your bringing it up. The reason you'll see the cruiser vs BB matchup discussed so much in terms of BB's beat cruisers is both because that how it works T3-9, and also because thats how according to WG;ing it's supposed to work. WoWS was designed with a soft rock paper scissors setup. BB's beat cruisers 1v1, Cruisers beat DD's, and DD's beat BB's, (with CV's in some weird special hell). It was a soft system bcause there was room for variation within that. Hence why some gunboat DD's are pretty decent DD hunters, and some curisers are good at AP'ing other cruisers and so on and so forth. But the general principles were still supposed to be adhered to.

 

The problem is whilst generally speaking cruisers do the least well at fighting BB's of all classes, BB's are still often their best or second best, (after other cruisers), target because they're not actually very good at going after anything else.T10 is the exception and IMO it's probably the biggest stumbling block in giving cruisers a clear role beyond "second rate BB/CA killers". Doing anything to cruisers globally would likely make T10 cruisers completely OP, but the rest of the cruisers really need it IMO.

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34 minutes ago, GhostSwordsman said:

T8 cruisers need a nudge of some sort to make them more appealing and easier to do well in. T

The only thing off the top of my head that would do is the addition of the repair party consumable. It would be an issue if a T8 is top tier. that would give it a nudge other than that.

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3 hours ago, Carl said:

 

Missed this earlier. Realism doesn't even remotely factor into this, so i'm not sure why your bringing it up. The reason you'll see the cruiser vs BB matchup discussed so much in terms of BB's beat cruisers is both because that how it works T3-9, and also because thats how according to WG;ing it's supposed to work. WoWS was designed with a soft rock paper scissors setup. BB's beat cruisers 1v1, Cruisers beat DD's, and DD's beat BB's, (with CV's in some weird special hell). It was a soft system bcause there was room for variation within that. Hence why some gunboat DD's are pretty decent DD hunters, and some curisers are good at AP'ing other cruisers and so on and so forth. But the general principles were still supposed to be adhered to.

 

The problem is whilst generally speaking cruisers do the least well at fighting BB's of all classes, BB's are still often their best or second best, (after other cruisers), target because they're not actually very good at going after anything else.T10 is the exception and IMO it's probably the biggest stumbling block in giving cruisers a clear role beyond "second rate BB/CA killers". Doing anything to cruisers globally would likely make T10 cruisers completely OP, but the rest of the cruisers really need it IMO.

I only mention it because I think it's a neat nod to reality, intentional or not. I wasn't necessarily saying it was realistic, or should stay the way it is because it would be realistic. Just making a remark on how cruisers being so powerful at the highest tier is a nice or neat nod to history/reality.

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3 hours ago, Bill_Halsey said:

The only thing off the top of my head that would do is the addition of the repair party consumable. It would be an issue if a T8 is top tier. that would give it a nudge other than that.

It being somewhat of an issue when T8 is top tier is why I think that T8 cruisers should only get one chage standard, at least to start. Players who don't use superintendent or premium consumables would only be able to heal back a little bit of damage, those that use one or the other would get two charges, and those that use both would get 3 charges. This is one less than Atago(and I'd advocate putting Eugen in the same boat as her, with 2 charges standard) and the T9 and T10 cruisers.

I think this would give them the staying power they really need when middle/bottom tier, while not making them too powerful when top tier.

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16 minutes ago, GhostSwordsman said:

I only mention it because I think it's a neat nod to reality, intentional or not. I wasn't necessarily saying it was realistic, or should stay the way it is because it would be realistic. Just making a remark on how cruisers being so powerful at the highest tier is a nice or neat nod to history/reality.

 

Ahh sorry i misunderstood you.

 

I also wouldn't say it's realistic at all, in the surface combat gunnery role cruisers never replaced BB's. But rather no one was willing to expend the money required to build a missile BB, but they were willing to build missile cruisers. Even then there's very little practical difference beyond size between missile cruisers and missile destroyers generally.

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6 hours ago, Carl said:

 

I can only report the MM i see, and 5 BB's 4-5 DD's and 2-3 Cruisers with the odd CV thrown in is pretty normal these days. Why thats happening when supposedly destroyers are played slightly less often than cruisers, (i noted further up that i'd ran the numbers btw), i'm not entirely sure of. It's probably related to a combination of divisions players pulled into rarer but still present T9 and T8 maximum matches, but we don;t have the data to really work all of that out.

Actually, I am gathering that data on a wide variety of stuff. Waiting til I have accumulated 500-1000 matches before I post it. 

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On 3/6/2018 at 3:07 PM, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Looks nice enough except for the Deepwater Torps part, those are the reason I Do Not use Pan Asian line is because so many enemy kills are DDs when using Torps, so not being able to hurt enemy DDs with Torps is a big disadvantage.

The pan Asian line is amazing....you use guns and radar to kill DDs instead of tops.

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It's an amusing thing, IMO.  I mostly play Cruisers and Battleships.  So seeing stuff like this:

BBs:  "WG plz stop with this DD, it's the worst thing to target us."

DDs:  "WG plz stop with this DD, it's a terrible Destroyer."

All at the same time :cap_haloween:

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8 minutes ago, EyE_dYe_QuIck said:

question about the deepwater torps, can a dd/ca  spot them for the BB? 

They can spot DWT's, but as with other DWTs, the detection range can be low and actually may sail past a friendly Cruiser, Destroyer in front of you and not be spotted.

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All I'm seeing with the Asashio is a ship that suffers from crippling overspecialization.  It'll eat pushing or dumb BBs for breakfast, but anything else is just going to be drooling over it the second it breaks concealment or pops smoke.

As a BB driver that actually likes to push, this ship will make me change my play to be more cautious.  I won't dare push hard if there's any on the enemy team, and the likelihood of triple divisions of Asashios means we'll be seeing the return of torp soup all but forcing any BB to the back lines until they're dead.  Congratulations WG, you're bringing new life to a meta we really don't need in this game.

Given the huge swarm of Asashios we'll be seeing if it is release like this, I'll probably just play DDs until the hype dies down some.  They're just about as brain-dead easy as BBs to drive, and less likely to be deleted as cruisers in game right now.

Honestly, none of that is what really bothers me about this ship.  If WG releases Asashio as it is, we're going to be stuck with these torpedoes in game for good.  They'll literally be useless for anything but BBs, which will have all but no time to react to incoming torps.  Short of massive global changes to nerf all torpedoes into the ground, these torps can never be nerfed if they're over performing.  Maybe the best path WG could take would be to scrap this ship as it is, and simply admit that they went a little too far in nerfing IJN torpedoes.  Buff their detectablity so that it's on par with other nations in testing and check the results from that.

Sad thing is that I'm probably still going to buy this ship if it launches like this.  I get the feeling we're looking at yet another premium that'll be banned from sales for being overpowered.

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13 hours ago, Wardog_Noir said:

All I'm seeing with the Asashio is a ship that suffers from crippling overspecialization.  It'll eat pushing or dumb BBs for breakfast, but anything else is just going to be drooling over it the second it breaks concealment or pops smoke.

As a BB driver that actually likes to push, this ship will make me change my play to be more cautious.  I won't dare push hard if there's any on the enemy team, and the likelihood of triple divisions of Asashios means we'll be seeing the return of torp soup all but forcing any BB to the back lines until they're dead.  Congratulations WG, you're bringing new life to a meta we really don't need in this game.

Given the huge swarm of Asashios we'll be seeing if it is release like this, I'll probably just play DDs until the hype dies down some.  They're just about as brain-dead easy as BBs to drive, and less likely to be deleted as cruisers in game right now.

Honestly, none of that is what really bothers me about this ship.  If WG releases Asashio as it is, we're going to be stuck with these torpedoes in game for good.  They'll literally be useless for anything but BBs, which will have all but no time to react to incoming torps.  Short of massive global changes to nerf all torpedoes into the ground, these torps can never be nerfed if they're over performing.  Maybe the best path WG could take would be to scrap this ship as it is, and simply admit that they went a little too far in nerfing IJN torpedoes.  Buff their detectablity so that it's on par with other nations in testing and check the results from that.

Sad thing is that I'm probably still going to buy this ship if it launches like this.  I get the feeling we're looking at yet another premium that'll be banned from sales for being overpowered.

 I understand the assumptions here but not the logic.  Maybe I’ve got my logic skewed but, why would you sit in the back and be more passive if more torps are coming at you way back there?  And you are ensuring you have no shot, and giving in.  I mean are we all going to cower in the back because there is a DD with long range torps? Wouldn’t you want to push more and keep your ship moving, especially bow forward, pushing more?   If you already like to push, then you are exposing yourself to more DDs that can get you, not less, correct?  Also I’m not sure the game could get more passive than it already is. I personally don’t like to play a lot of BB,  but when I do I can’t tell you all the times when I am pushing only to turn and see everyone has either been sitting, going too slowly, or just flat turned around and leave you all alone. I’ve been in heat of situations over and where I look up in my support is all gone, behind me running away.   The next thing you know you are focus-fired by 3-5 ships at once while the other clowns are practically off the map. That already happens.  And I’m not sure how to possibly legislate behavior like that or make it go away.  At the start of each match it’s pretty sad how many ships just sit there waiting to see who’s going to be the most passive. I honestly don’t see this ship singularly making that so much worse.  If anything I would think it would make you move more, or adjust your headings changing speeds more, etc.  There is nothing more frustrating to a DD driver than a good OP  who is constantly turning in changing speeds.  That’s your best defense, not camping or milling in the back.

 

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52 minutes ago, Capt_of_Satisfaction said:

 Maybe I’ve got my logic skewed but, why would you sit in the back and be more passive if more torps are coming at you way back there?

Simple. If you're  way in the back, you can't spotted. If you're not spotted, you can't be targeted with DWT's. If you can't be targeted with DWT's you won't be dev striked by torpedoes you can't react to in time. Just have to work the logic backwards.

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15 minutes ago, Bill_Halsey said:

Simple. If you're  way in the back, you can't spotted. If you're not spotted, you can't be targeted with DWT's. If you can't be targeted with DWT's you won't be dev striked by torpedoes you can't react to in time. Just have to work the logic backwards.

 The overall complaint is that the torps can reach to the spawn points.  BB players are saying they will be nailed as they’re leaving the spawn, the point being they wont have a chance. They’re saying the torps will be spammed to the spawn point sight unseen.   That is when I was driving at.  And if you’re going to sit cowering in the back you are not going to get very far anyway. 

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I may pick this up and throw Isoroku Yamamoto on her and start my grind up the IJN DD line. 

I look forward to balancing being aggressive with her while utilizing her strengths. 

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2 hours ago, Capt_of_Satisfaction said:

 The overall complaint is that the torps can reach to the spawn points.  BB players are saying they will be nailed as they’re leaving the spawn, the point being they wont have a chance. They’re saying the torps will be spammed to the spawn point sight unseen.   That is when I was driving at.  And if you’re going to sit cowering in the back you are not going to get very far anyway. 

The problem with most people saying that is that they're not thinking right.  If you're getting nailed in spawn by these torps, you're doing something wrong or spending way too much time in the back at the start of the match.  With how important concealment is to the game meta right now, most people are using at least some method to hide their ships better.  Being detected at spawn if you're not firing guns and instead trying to position with the rest of your team means you're not going to be targeted.  If I was that far back, I'd either be using islands as cover or bow/stern in to minimize my profile.  Torps fired at that range are going to be so far apart, you'll be really unlucky if you take more than one or two hits at most.

Where it's really going to suck is for the BBs that actually like to push.  Seeing this ship on the red team means you could be looking at up to 16 nearly impossible to dodge torpedoes being concentrated at you.  No amount of torpedo beats can save you from that kind of firepower if the DD driver knows what they're doing.  I wouldn't want to be driving a BB anywhere within 10 KM of this boat in all honesty, there likely won't be anywhere enough other ships or planes to spot the torps far enough away to give any meaningful time to dodge.

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20 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

It's an amusing thing, IMO.  I mostly play Cruisers and Battleships.  So seeing stuff like this:

BBs:  "WG plz stop with this DD, it's the worst thing to target us."

DDs:  "WG plz stop with this DD, it's a terrible Destroyer."

All at the same time :cap_haloween:

It is a terrible destroyer. It has 1 use, and that's torping BBs. Beyond that its passive play to the max. I guess it can spot? That's cool, but its not significantly better at it then say, a Benson for most scouting stuff. That's not what most teams need out of a DD. 

It'll put out the numbers I guess. I still don't want it out there.

 

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19 hours ago, Wardog_Noir said:

The problem with most people saying that is that they're not thinking right.  If you're getting nailed in spawn by these torps, you're doing something wrong or spending way too much time in the back at the start of the match.  With how important concealment is to the game meta right now, most people are using at least some method to hide their ships better.  Being detected at spawn if you're not firing guns and instead trying to position with the rest of your team means you're not going to be targeted.  If I was that far back, I'd either be using islands as cover or bow/stern in to minimize my profile.  Torps fired at that range are going to be so far apart, you'll be really unlucky if you take more than one or two hits at most.

Where it's really going to suck is for the BBs that actually like to push.  Seeing this ship on the red team means you could be looking at up to 16 nearly impossible to dodge torpedoes being concentrated at you.  No amount of torpedo beats can save you from that kind of firepower if the DD driver knows what they're doing.  I wouldn't want to be driving a BB anywhere within 10 KM of this boat in all honesty, there likely won't be anywhere enough other ships or planes to spot the torps far enough away to give any meaningful time to dodge.

 I understand what you’re saying. I just think the logic of milling in the back or holding way back is not going to solve the problem for the BBs or their teams. This DD can’t be everywhere and it still has everyone else to worry about including other DD.  I can already see the in-game chat board lighting up whenever this DD is on the red team.  

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Can I ask, though... why specialize it entirely to targetting battleships and the rare Aircraft Carrier? I know it sucks to be hit by DWTs in a cruiser, but that's what Hydroacoustic Search is for.

  It just seems like it's encouraging BBs to sit at the back and snipe; something that Wargaming have said multiple times that they want to fix. And I honestly feel like it's not a problem with Asashio herself or any ship really; it's a problem with the "Arena Team Deathmatch" style of game that doesn't truly represent fleet battles, which were much more "objective"-oriented; most-often about securing a path for advance so that the warships could provide fire-support to ground forces a long distance away.

 

This is why I suggested a more "Frontlines" approach last December which is much more about achieving objectives and advancing rather than just damaging or killing the enemy ships.

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32 minutes ago, Capt_of_Satisfaction said:

 I understand what you’re saying. I just think the logic of milling in the back or holding way back is not going to solve the problem for the BBs or their teams. This DD can’t be everywhere and it still has everyone else to worry about including other DD.  I can already see the in-game chat board lighting up whenever this DD is on the red team.  

That's the core of the problem this ship poses for the game as it is.  Logic really won't factor into the minds of the BB players if they see this ship on the red team.  Fear of being deleted with all but no counter play will force them to hide in the back.  With Asashio's probable 5 and a half KM detection range, she's going to be hard to find in most games unless that player screws up.  There will literally be a 40 KM circle centered around this ship on the map saying that BBs are unsuspecting prey that are essentially helpless.

Granted, I wouldn't be too worried myself past about 10 KM, but the threat remains.  No sane BB driver would push in a game with an Asashio in it unless they know it's nowhere near them or already dead.

My main issue with this ship is that it's going to reinforce a terrible play meta in lesser skilled BB drivers always hiding at max range.  I'm one that pushes and I've been driving DDs in matches where those BBs hiding in the back really could have been helpful closer in and taking the heat off me while contesting caps.

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