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LittleWhiteMouse

Premium Ship Preview: Asashio 0.7.2

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22 minutes ago, Carl said:

Nah, there's little if any nerfing required IMO.

 

The problem isn;t battleships. It's cruisers. High tiers are full of BB's normally. They're full of DD's normally, but cruisers are nearly extinct. 2 cruisers a match is common, more than 3 is virtually unheard of. And it all comes back to the fact that in general there is nothing a cruiser does that another ship doesn't do better, and they're rarely good at more than one thing at once. Even the high influence ones like USN radar cruisers are IMO rarely great in personal performance terms, they're just good at teamplay elements.

I agree with your overall premise, but not the details of your post.    

You could make the case that mid to low tier cruisers are in need of help, but by the time you get to Tier 10, cruisers are the best ship type in my humble opinion. Once they start getting 30mm upper belt armor they become surprising tanky against BBs, and their ever increasing range only helps.  Throw in the fact that high tier cruisers get access to a heal and larger HP pools and all of the sudden something like a Hindenburg can eat a double citadel from a BB, pop a heal or two, and still walk away with 30k HP left.  

By tier 10 cruisers can do everything well.  They all carry fantastic AP capable of dev striking other cruisers, in some cases out to their maximum range.  Their AP can be fantastic against BBs as well....a Hindenburg landing 10k-15k AP volleys every 8.8 seconds just melts any BB that dares show broadside.  Most Tier 10 cruisers are fantastic fire starters as well, capable of going toe to toe with a BB and burning it down.

I don't know why tier 10 cruisers are not as common, but my hunch is many players don't bother grinding through the barrier that is known as Tier 8 cruisers.  

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54 minutes ago, yashma said:


I don't know why tier 10 cruisers are not as common, but my hunch is many players don't bother grinding through the barrier that is known as Tier 8 cruisers.  

It's because high tier cruisers each has its own playstyle that is both difficult to master and unlike the T9 that precedes them, and they are still susceptible to being dev struck -- and there are a lot more BBs and many of them are very skilled at hitting ships out past 20 kms, even cruisers. The overall offensive power of ships scales faster than defensive, so many players, out of desire to live longer, switch to BBs, which have more health. And the BBs at T10 are all attractive, capable ships. 

Plus, IMHO the barrier is T9. No T9 cruiser really stands out and shouts "play me" and the grinds are loooooong. Baltimore, Saint-Louis, and Roon are three versions of the same cruiser. Donskoi seems awesome until anything with AP sees your side -- then you are dismissed in a hail of cits. Neptune is basically food for BBs. Ibuki is a sidegrade from Mogami and almost as easy to cit. 

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This ship is going to make passive BB play esp, in T8 - T10 even worse than it already is.

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I want one. Whatever the torps or guns it’s still a destroyer. It spots, it caps, it smokes. If it plays differently than other destroyers, that’s good. Changes and challenges gameplay? Good. It takes lot to break the game and until it actually gets in the hands of the average players I don’t think anyone really knows what will happen. I don’t think we’ll see a significant change in BB play, however; I’m pretty sure it’ll be business as usual. There’s just too many of them, you see.

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"Hi, I'm Wargaming and I like to force you not play battleships by making the effort so punitive you just have to rage quit until you no longer want to play them." - paraphrased from nearly every patch.

Why force a participating player to play something they don't want to play again?  I am confused.  I rarely play carriers as they keep getting more broke every patch.  I mean the whole broke command thing that 7.2 got and slipped through all testing shows no one tested carriers.

Will 7.3 have some sort of borked guns on battleships?  But it'll be fine because destroyers are so beefed up they can citadel battleships with HE?  I don't get why Wargaming is being so abusive to battleship players.

Eventually battleship players will try the other classes.  There's no reason to foist a meta. 

 

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6 hours ago, nuttybiscuit said:

Asaisho is an excellent example of why we need CVs that are specifically strong vs dds, scouting, spotting and sinking them. I'll leave unsaid which is the best tier 8cv for countering IJN dds.

Nutty you GZ loyalist, give no quarter in the pursuit to return  the Kriegsmarine's only semi operational CV to this glorious game  :Smile_honoring:

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IMO I still think it would be more interesting if they made the minimum arming distance for the torpedoes very high such as 10km so that you had to keep your distance from the BBs you were targeting.  It would give the ship a very different feel then another DD.

 

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2 hours ago, yashma said:

I agree with your overall premise, but not the details of your post.    

You could make the case that mid to low tier cruisers are in need of help, but by the time you get to Tier 10, cruisers are the best ship type in my humble opinion. Once they start getting 30mm upper belt armor they become surprising tanky against BBs, and their ever increasing range only helps.  Throw in the fact that high tier cruisers get access to a heal and larger HP pools and all of the sudden something like a Hindenburg can eat a double citadel from a BB, pop a heal or two, and still walk away with 30k HP left.  

By tier 10 cruisers can do everything well.  They all carry fantastic AP capable of dev striking other cruisers, in some cases out to their maximum range.  Their AP can be fantastic against BBs as well....a Hindenburg landing 10k-15k AP volleys every 8.8 seconds just melts any BB that dares show broadside.  Most Tier 10 cruisers are fantastic fire starters as well, capable of going toe to toe with a BB and burning it down.

I don't know why tier 10 cruisers are not as common, but my hunch is many players don't bother grinding through the barrier that is known as Tier 8 cruisers.  

 

T9 is not mid to low tier. Thats high tier, so is T8. How one specific tier performs isn't very relevant to how the class as a whole performs. T10 for all classes has allways had the issue of being this massive step up from preceding tiers, but it's especially bad for cruisers because the initial gold standard for T10 cruisers was the 36rpm baltimore, and the T10 standard was the 90rpm Des Moines. Even once Zao/Ibuki eclipsed that the gap between them is huge compared to the gap between . Roon was the first T9 that was as close to it;s T10 counterpart as you see with for example iowa to Montana. The russians and the french are harder to run direct comparisons on because of the sharp change in gun calibre and what that does to the ships in question.

 

As an aside having tracked the numbers down cruisers are the most played class at T10, but this is heavily offset by how underplayed the T9 and T8 are. Though oddly the DD's undershoot cruisers at t10 and T8, but i suspect the way CV' tend in my experiance to replace DD's on teams probably explains why this is less visible than expected they make up the numbers.

 

At the same time T10 cruisers are a big part of the problem IMO. It's completely impossible to make any real class level changes to help out all the other problem cruisers because it would make T10 cruisers OP because T10 cruisers matchup against BB's far better than a cruiser should. Don't get me wrong the tendency towards really spiky mage vs cruisers with BB's is an issue IMO, but cruisers should be seeking to actively avoid engaging BB's, not HE spamming them to death as a defacto thing. Prior to 10 that actually holds true because cruisers don't have the firepower or the durability to really do it, though IMO some mid tier cruisers are pushing it, (budyonny i am looking at you here).

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Hi 

Once again a excellent mini review  of this ship LWM plus1 

I look forward to purchasing  the IJN  Flottontorpedoboot T-61 Asashio .

Well actually i will probable pass on it  in all seriousness

regards  

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Wait, did, LWM give it an Overpowered?!

 

Shut-up-and-take-my-money-1024x640.jpg

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I think with the way T8 gets to land into T10 almost all the time, it is correct to want an OP T8.

Otherwise, all you get is a crappy T10.

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1 minute ago, MrDeaf said:

I think with the way T8 gets to land into T10 almost all the time, it is correct to want an OP T8.

Otherwise, all you get is a crappy T10.

True on that one, and I love me a good torpedo boat. With the guns being upgraded it looks to be quite fun so if she stays the same I'll probably grab her when she drops.

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Ahh well , at least this thread helped me make up my mind as far as manual AA or concealment for my Atlanta . Concealment it is ,  hopefully it'll help me ambush this atrocity WG is foisting on the game . The damd thing will be defenseless in that regard .

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10 hours ago, FirstOfOne said:

What is the reaction time with both vigilance and the torp acquisition module(or whatever its called, the one that no one uses because concealment)?

If they push multiple ships like this, Or give IJN a variation of DWT, they may be pushing BBs to use tools already available for avoidance.

I think it is about 20 percent on top of base range with ship mod. I actually use it on my high tiered BB's . Capt skill Vigilance is  + 25 percent

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2 hours ago, yashma said:

I agree with your overall premise, but not the details of your post.    

You could make the case that mid to low tier cruisers are in need of help, but by the time you get to Tier 10, cruisers are the best ship type in my humble opinion. Once they start getting 30mm upper belt armor they become surprising tanky against BBs, and their ever increasing range only helps.  Throw in the fact that high tier cruisers get access to a heal and larger HP pools and all of the sudden something like a Hindenburg can eat a double citadel from a BB, pop a heal or two, and still walk away with 30k HP left.  

By tier 10 cruisers can do everything well.  They all carry fantastic AP capable of dev striking other cruisers, in some cases out to their maximum range.  Their AP can be fantastic against BBs as well....a Hindenburg landing 10k-15k AP volleys every 8.8 seconds just melts any BB that dares show broadside.  Most Tier 10 cruisers are fantastic fire starters as well, capable of going toe to toe with a BB and burning it down.

I don't know why tier 10 cruisers are not as common, but my hunch is many players don't bother grinding through the barrier that is known as Tier 8 cruisers.  

Yeah, just earlier today I bow tanked an Alsace in my Baltimore. Poor guy even tried switching to HE as well, but since I could fire about 3 times as fast as him, he still got burnt to the waterline. Poor thing.

To be honest, I don't think it's really a bad thing that the top tier cruisers can almost go toe to toe with battleships and come out on top. It's a great nod to reality, where the cruiser platform evolved and continued to remain relevant, and the battleship platform didn't or couldn't. T10 ships are supposed to represent the pinnacle in technology of that era for each type. By that time, cruisers were very much like battleships in terms of firepower and even survivability, while still maintaining better maneuverability, flexibility, and utility. Sure, people will always have this notion that battleships should trump cruisers because "I haz big gunz and much armors", but the reality of it is that by then, the lines between those two types was getting rather blurred.

Cruiser heavy matches are a ton of fun(well, maybe not so much for DDs), and the flow of the game is extremely dynamic and fluid. Perhaps if T8 cruisers get a little nudge to make them more appealing, and people start to realize that high tier cruisers are pretty powerful in their own right, then maybe the cruiser population will see a large enough increase where matches can be fun again because the majority of them are cruiser heavy.

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12 hours ago, nuttybiscuit said:

Asaisho is an excellent example of why we need CVs that are specifically strong vs dds, scouting, spotting and sinking them. I'll leave unsaid which is the best tier 8cv for countering IJN dds.

 

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8 hours ago, Taichunger said:

Donskoi seems awesome until anything with AP sees your side -- then you are dismissed in a hail of cits.

I'm always paranoid about that. That's why I keep one eye one eye on the mini map to see who is broadside to me

5 hours ago, GhostSwordsman said:

Perhaps if T8 cruisers get a little nudge to make them more appealing, and people start to realize that high tier cruisers are pretty powerful in their own right, then maybe the cruiser population will see a large enough increase where matches can be fun again because the majority of them are cruiser heavy.

T8-T10 CL's/CA's are already powerful in their own right. they have damage control parties like BB's, high ROF and consumables.  More maneuverable than a BB. If you  keep the fight to outside 15km, you can burn a BB to the waterline.  

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10 hours ago, Carl said:

 

I wondered when you where going to post a link to this, you caught some early fish with your bait before this in me as i had you on subscribe.

 

 

Nah, there's little if any nerfing required IMO.

 

The problem isn;t battleships. It's cruisers. High tiers are full of BB's normally. They're full of DD's normally, but cruisers are nearly extinct. 2 cruisers a match is common, more than 3 is virtually unheard of. And it all comes back to the fact that in general there is nothing a cruiser does that another ship doesn't do better, and they're rarely good at more than one thing at once. Even the high influence ones like USN radar cruisers are IMO rarely great in personal performance terms, they're just good at teamplay elements.

Carl, Carl, Carl....

I pride myself on being our local population Natzee and what you are saying isn't true.

Populations at high tiers are, in order of greatest #of plays to least: BB, CA, DD. ............................CV

I don't disagree on your evaluation of why the CA pop isn't higher (why play CA when BB does it just as good and lives longer doing it) and of course we have to keep in mind this is for your average player, and the average everyday WoWs dood doesn't have the ability to play CA acceptably at end game so they just don't run em. They'd rather run Missouri, and throw darts all match hoping for that bullseye.

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12 hours ago, Th3KrimzonD3mon said:

Allow me to clarify something: Most of the base pays no attention to news or the forums, I find it very highly unlikely that a ship that can't effectively fight other destroyers or cruisers will change the basic meta. A lot of players, who pay no attention, will buy it, and then stop playing it when they realize they can only so certain things at certain times, or they'll yolo ahead and get obliterated by said predators they can't effectively fight.

 

It will end up performing just like other IJN DD's, because while a unicum can make any ship sing, the majority of the base can't. Its WR and damage will be well below the average, that's not remotely OP, that's very bad. That should surprise no-one, WG has been dropping bad ships for a good long while now, and still trying to sell them for vast sums, and on top of that, the packages in the bundles have dropped in value, as well.

 

Mouse is a really good player, and tester, she has the skill to overcome the issues with the ship, the vast majority of the base doesn't. The meta won't change due to the addition of this ship.

 I tend to agree with this.  If the ship could sink cruisers it would be OP and worthy of all the hubbub, but it’s almost a one-trick pony.  If you are NOT extremely talented and experienced in using her guns then it is definitely a one-trick pony.  But since it is at T8, there will be some very good players using the boat.  OTH, there will be some very good players wanting to hunt them down.  And of course we know that there will be some very bad players that will find out the hard way at T8, especially in uptier’d games.  And remember, you cannot torp the many but the many can torp you.  

Wipe those weepy peepers BB players and pay attention to the roster at startup.  If you see her, make it priority one to WSAD!  And remember she’s not free.

 

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12 hours ago, TheNargacuga said:

Do note that mouse' classification for overpowered means it can forcibly redefine the meta, that's this ship in a nutshell, not surprised you aren't capable of realizing this due to your post history however. 

 

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So dealing with 4-5 radar ships is acceptable but 1 ship that specifically targets BB isn't? Is this a Double standard? Thoughts?

 

All I'm seeing is a ship that Battleship players need to ask their team to help them deal with and pay attention for on the mimimap when it does pop up. AWARENESS. 

 

Scan the team lineups, it's just 1 ship folks. It'll be super weak if you actually get some claws into it.

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I'm still pissed at the developers for nerfing the IJN torpedoes into near uselessness, then coming out with deep-water torpedoes. We wouldn't even be in this cluster-cuss of a situation if the developers just ate the crow and reversed, even partially, the nerfs to the torpedoes when they felt that the BB population had gotten out of hand. They could have bypassed all of the work necessary to cook up these special torpedoes.

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Asashio is a idiot design that will promote more idiot gameplay, and we dont need more of that into this game. Asashio will promote more passive and selfish gameplay. 

 

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The Asashio seems to be an interesting concept and/or test arena for the IJN DD's.  Perhaps in the future IJN DD's at Tier VI and above may receive the Reload Booster as a separate consumable.

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As a battleship main who almost never plays DDs. . .

I think I might pick up this DD.  It sounds well suited to my aggressive playstyle, and might be good to have in my inventory for those stupid missions that require you get get X number of torpedo hits.

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