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LittleWhiteMouse

Premium Ship Preview: Asashio 0.7.2

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31 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

The BB meta right now is because of French Event

Naah, I tend to see quite a lot of BBs outside of Mission X and Event Y, so I think I can use this ship will for that.

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Interesting Boat. Since I mainly play cruisers and it is zero threat to them it's a DD I can safely ignore. Might pick it up to annoy BB's. Nice review as always Mouse +1

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I can see Asashio becoming the DD every red DD and CA wants to find. Great value to your team and a relatively safe kill. It will join (if not top) the list of "kill this at all costs when spotted" ships. This could make it a very feast-or-famine ship. On the other hand, it can play more second line since its torps have the range AND you can shoot through your own DDs and CAs (as shown in the video). Have to see...

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Are we sure that these new Deep Water Torpedoes will NOT Harm Cruisers? Because Pan Asian versions went back and forth on the matter and finally turned out to be able to harm Cruisers.

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2 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

I can see Asashio becoming the DD every red DD and CA wants to find. Great value to your team and a relatively safe kill. It will join (if not top) the list of "kill this at all costs when spotted" ships. This could make it a very feast-or-famine ship. On the other hand, it can play more second line since its torps have the range AND you can shoot through your own DDs and CAs (as shown in the video). Have to see...

Just keep that ship out of Ranked lol since second line DDs get an angry allied team each battle that I saw them in since teams count on DDs capping and taking out enemy DDs and then proceeding on to enemy BBs.

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Sigh. I might get it myself. Maybe. Not thrilled about needing a dedicated captain to play optimally though.

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1 minute ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Just keep that ship out of Ranked

Ranked/Clan would be really bad if there is only 1 BB per side!:cap_haloween: What would you do when that BB is sunk or hidden from you?

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As always, thanks for the detailed Preview/review, LittleWhiteMouse. Your reviews and previews are always extremely helpful to many.

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8 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Are we sure that these new Deep Water Torpedoes will NOT Harm Cruisers? Because Pan Asian versions went back and forth on the matter and finally turned out to be able to harm Cruisers.

We are sure of this current patch.

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1 minute ago, Akeno017 said:

We are sure of this current patch.

Ok that is good, lol will make it far more easier for CAs to hunt down that DD then.

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On 07/03/2018 at 6:30 AM, LittleWhiteMouse said:
 
 The ship is now in its third iteration of live play testing, with design apparently zeroing in on publishing the ship as-is with her controversial torpedo armament. 
Spoiler
 
 
  Hide contents
 
 
  Hide contents

 

 
After deployment, Asashio's power wanes and she must look for targets of opportunity.  Invariably, these will be battleships on the front lines ... She seems designed to punish aggressive battleships that dare spearhead a charge.  Even those sitting behind a screen of destroyers and cruisers are not entirely safe.
 
I hope Asashio does evolve further with a significant reduction in torpedo range.

Thanks for this, LWM. 

In term of balance changes, has anyone suggested making the narrow torp spread 50 per cent wider so there are bigger gaps to dodge through? This would be even more pronounced at long range so that if you wanted to actually hit people you’d have to be closer, reducing the problems of players camping in the back and ‘sniping’ with 20km torps. 

Alternatively, or perhaps in addition, creating a minimum arming distance of a few km (like 3-5km) to make it less ‘surprise you die’ kind of situations? It would amuse me to watch a DD pop around an island and run away from a BB in order to torp it, and have the BB chase the DD to try and be safe. 

These two changes could keep the extremes at bay, rewarding higher skill play in that difficult mid-distance. 

Thoughts?

Edited by UltimateNewbie
Smaller LWM quote
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Wargaming, circa 2016: "We now realize that super ninja torps with zero reaction time are a problem. We have dropped the nerf piano on the IJN line."

Wargaming, late 2017: "Super ninja torps with zero reaction time are a great idea, and we're going to base an entire line around them! These super ninja torps aren't bad for gameplay because they don't hit DDs."

Wargaming, early 2018: "Super ninja torps are great for gameplay, we swear. But you know what would make them more fun and engaging? Put them on a premium and make them just like those torpedo soup ninja torps from forever ago that everyone loved! Except we'll make sure they're on a garbage gun platform, and adjust them so they can only hit BBs!"

 

This ship just looks bad for the game. I'd rather see a Funbuki clone with 12km T93M3s. I miss Funbuki. 

  • Cool 3

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13 minutes ago, Battlecruiser_Kongo said:

Oh GOD. So this means that this thing is imminent like this?!

There's still a while before she gets released.  There's been a lot of talk about Asashio (I've been getting a lot of messages about her), so I thought a mini update before a full review was in order.

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12 minutes ago, UltimateNewbie said:

Thanks for this, LWM. 

In term of balance changes, has anyone suggested making the narrow torp spread 50 per cent wider so there are bigger gaps to dodge through? This would be even more pronounced at long range so that if you wanted to actually hit people you’d have to be closer, reducing the problems of players camping in the back and ‘sniping’ with 20km torps. 

Alternatively, or perhaps in addition, creating a minimum arming distance of a few km (like 3-5km) to make it less ‘surprise you die’ kind of situations? It would amuse me to watch a DD pop around an island and run away from a BB in order to torp it, and have the BB chase the DD to try and be safe. 

These two changes could keep the extremes at bay, rewarding higher skill play in that difficult mid-distance. 

Thoughts?

I don't think the concept will work at all, even if you widen the gaps between the torpedoes. The problem to me is that, like Mouse said, in the beginning people will realize you can farm damage by spamming torpedoes into the start point before the BBs move. After a while, when people get wise to that one, the ship becomes nearly useless. Great players will try to move up for better shots, but most players won't. The ship has little playability for the average player beyond spamming torps into the start zone.The ship, as-is, is complete meat for every DD and CA/CL out there. It simply can't move forward. It has all the problems of the Pan Asians but with an even smaller target selection which then reduces the ship's ability to defend itself even more than regular IJN DDs, and like most IJN DDs, its guns can't save it from another DD much less a CA. Also, we already have a problem with passive play from BBs at high tiers, this just adds a DD which both encourages BBs to hide in the back and simultaneously teaches bad team-DD playstyle.  Aasashio isn't going to cap or spot for its team. They don't even have to pretend to have a clue about getting into position and setting up a good torpedo run either. They just lob torpedoes from behind the safety of their team with no fear of hitting allies, and heaven help us all when they try to play another DD. I really think they just need to scrap this concept and start again. Asashio deserves better than this. 

I agree with Mouse, the ship is clearly a test run at limiting the BB overpopulation problem, but it won't work. They need to take concrete steps to address the BB problem, but introducing a gimmick ship isn't the way to do it. It won't have the effect they think it will and then the player base will be left with another OP ship that the Devs will have to discontinue. 

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13 minutes ago, Tzarevitch said:

I agree with Mouse, the ship is clearly a test run at limiting the BB overpopulation problem, but it won't work. They need to take concrete steps to address the BB problem, but introducing a gimmick ship isn't the way to do it. It won't have the effect they think it will and then the player base will be left with another OP ship that the Devs will have to discontinue. 

Yes, it's very existence would imply that they have no real plans, and are just flailing in the dark.

How do you reduce BB populations? Well, for starters, by making cruisers more appealing, since they get pooped on by every BB in the game. 

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3 minutes ago, Battlecruiser_Kongo said:

Yes, it's very existence would imply that they have no real plans, and are just flailing in the dark.

How do you reduce BB populations? Well, for starters, by making cruisers more appealing, since they get pooped on by every BB in the game. 

Yep. I think ultimately they are either going to have to increase the dispersion on high tier BBs or increase the arming time for their AP shells so they overpen cruisers more often and force the BBs to actually switch ammo. I noticed that the French and Italian BBs do this a lot. I'm wondering if WoWs is using them to test this out. 

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Well I am SLIGHTLY interested in this goober for PvE play. Although bots already prioritize DDs as their "must kill first" item. It depends a lot on how they price it. If it's a reasonable price like the Agilly, I'll probably grab it. If they go crazy on pricing, I'll pass. Not real keen on torps that are so restricted on what they can kill.

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25 minutes ago, Tzarevitch said:

I don't think the concept will work at all, even if you widen the gaps between the torpedoes. The problem to me is that, like Mouse said, in the beginning people will realize you can farm damage by spamming torpedoes into the start point before the BBs move. After a while, when people get wise to that one, the ship becomes nearly useless. Great players will try to move up for better shots, but most players won't. The ship has little playability for the average player beyond spamming torps into the start zone.The ship, as-is, is complete meat for every DD and CA/CL out there. It simply can't move forward. It has all the problems of the Pan Asians but with an even smaller target selection which then reduces the ship's ability to defend itself even more than regular IJN DDs, and like most IJN DDs, its guns can't save it from another DD much less a CA. Also, we already have a problem with passive play from BBs at high tiers, this just adds a DD which both encourages BBs to hide in the back and simultaneously teaches bad team-DD playstyle.  Aasashio isn't going to cap or spot for its team. They don't even have to pretend to have a clue about getting into position and setting up a good torpedo run either. They just lob torpedoes from behind the safety of their team with no fear of hitting allies, and heaven help us all when they try to play another DD. I really think they just need to scrap this concept and start again. Asashio deserves better than this. 

I agree with Mouse, the ship is clearly a test run at limiting the BB overpopulation problem, but it won't work. They need to take concrete steps to address the BB problem, but introducing a gimmick ship isn't the way to do it. It won't have the effect they think it will and then the player base will be left with another OP ship that the Devs will have to discontinue. 

Lol I have been busy reducing the BB population today in Kagero, all those poor BBs grouped together getting in each other’s way and making my Torpedo salvoes more effective and racking up some nice rewards. Delicious opportunities with so many BBs in battles.

Surprised I am not seeing more Harekaze out and about hunting since if was able to get a Harekaze the BB numbers I am sinking would be higher since while Torps are reloading you can just open up with those 100mm guns and basically be a DD gunboat and BBs burn so easily. Have seen an occasional player doing this successful , but surprisingly few even using them.

Think Wargaming had right idea with Harekaze, but failed to release Harekaze in a Campaign which would have made it far more widespread and eaten into the BB numbers since we all know what gunboat DDs did even in last Ranked Season for example. And players love using premium ships.

One can only conclude that BBs will stay as they are with an occasional amusing / annoying toys like Asashio and Pan Asian DDs with DWT  reieased to annoy them for a little while before such things fall out of favor.

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2 hours ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

But, the community did what they usually did when faced with a perfectly acceptable new ship bereft of game-breaking gimmicks:  they complained..  So, Wargaming made changes.

The community complains when WG put out 'same as, only worse than' semi-clones.

 

Rant not directed at LWM begins:

Original Asashio may not have been broken beyond repair but she was boring, bringing nothing new to the table, and just outright worse than Kagero, even if only somewhat.

WG could have made some fairly small soft-stat or minor consumable changes as trade-offs relative to Kagero, worse gun power but a different torpedo option, worse guns, slightly better handling, make the guns the same, slower faster reloading torpedoes, something within the bounds of common balance.

Instead the reaction is immediately to roll out:

  • TRB and smoke in separate slots, last seen on an 8-torp DD in Shiratsuyu where it was pulled for being OP (warning signs should flash...)
  • Super-special unique DWT with features never seen before on any ship (warning) and with insane concealment (danger Will Torpedoson!!).

This is just incredibly frustrating and seemingly how WG wants to do things. There's been an increasing pattern of it, and unless we're just supposed to not provide any feedback at all this will just keep happening... to writ -

  • Asashio - anon
  • Hood - looks a bit underwhelming, guns not too accurate... maybe we could improve that, by... add an utterly ridiculous AA consumable
  • DoY cruiser edition - looks a bit underwhelming, not sold on the concept, maybe you could adjust it... NO you get worse KGV now, there is no middle ground, and it's all your fault plebeians
  • Cossack WIP - looks utterly rubbish to be honest, erm maybe add that 4th gun mount.... no no, add unique and beautiful hydro to it and screw whatever size-concealment formula you thought there was
  • Huang He - look, we've overtiered a tiny CL with 6 guns to T6, the sensible thing would be to make it T5, what's that you say? Perth style-smoke, the first ship with TRB without the actual quick-reload facilities which were good historic background for that on the IJN DD... sigh.
  • Graf Zeppelin - I can't even remember what tranches of gimmicks this ship went through, but the 6s delay AP DB's I'm pretty sure were no one's suggestion.
  • Kidd - not a great trade of a set of TT for AA, spends ~6 months in development hell, the repair consumable gimmick actually comes off fairly well, fortunately RU DD had already had that for months at that point making it a bit less risky

 

WG IMO need to do two things -

  1. When balancing new ships look at the increasing number of already existing ships and do a bit of a mental comparison, is this ship just X but worse/better? Does this ship add anything new? Does the game need this?
  2. When re-balancing look in the toolkit for the small set of screwdrivers instead of the large comedic hammer labelled 'gimmicks'
  • Cool 2

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3 hours ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

Arguments that Asashio's torpedo reaction time is too short to respond are facetious -- unless you're already on the alert, responding belatedly to torpedo threats will minimize damage at best and just make you look stupid at worse.

I don't know what your conclusion is.  Is the reaction time too short or not?  It sounds like you're saying that ALL torp reaction times are too short unless you're already responding, in which case Asashio is no worse? 

 

 

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Well...not one I'm interested in, OP or otherwise...but I wonder how many Belfasts are gonna be out for blood when this thing drops. If wargaming was smart, they would put this, AND the Belfast back in the shop at the same time...

g8ag40q.gif

  • Cool 1

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Asaisho is an excellent example of why we need CVs that are specifically strong vs dds, scouting, spotting and sinking them. I'll leave unsaid which is the best tier 8cv for countering IJN dds.

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43 minutes ago, mofton said:

The community complains when WG put out 'same as, only worse than' semi-clones.

 

The community complains when WG gives them free stuff.

 

The rest of your post has some pretty good points.  IMO Asashio should have a range nerf to, say, 16 km, but otherwise I'm interested to see his effect.  As will my cruiser.

 

Edited by iDuckman

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1 hour ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Surprised I am not seeing more Harekaze out and about hunting since if was able to get a Harekaze the BB numbers I am sinking would be higher since while Torps are reloading you can just open up with those 100mm guns and basically be a DD gunboat and BBs burn so easily. Have seen an occasional player doing this successful , but surprisingly few even using them.

Shhh.  Shut your mouth.

People will know what I am doing when I am in the Harekaze with my 19pt Akizuki captain.  

It's so funny when the dead reds pop up chat and go, What just happened.

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