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Stauffenberg44

Prince of Wales and Repulse--where are they??

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The objective of Force Z on December 10 1941, which consisted of one battleship, one battlecruiser and four destroyers, was to intercept the Japanese invasion fleet north of Malaya. The task force sailed without any air support. Although the British had a close encounter with Japanese heavy surface units, the force failed to find and destroy the main convoy. On their return to Singapore they were attacked in open waters and sunk by long-range torpedo bombers. The commander of Force Z, failed to call for air support in favour of maintaining radio silence.

The British battleship was HMS Prince of Wales:

Spoiler

5a9e0c0488966_HMSPrineofWales.jpg.89add851d941b7def8f0b04e2acc444a.jpg

The British battlecruiser was the Repulse:

Spoiler

5a9e0c4ab6fcc_HMSRepulse.jpg.de65a2457107d2e87e282a967da02cc2.jpg

Get them in here as premiums or whatever, thank you. I don't give a dam* about this endless quest for OP ships: history matters.

Thank-you.

PS--I tried four times to delete this "python log" link with no success. No idea wth is up with that. Thread moderator feel free to delete it thanks.

python_1.log

Edited by Stauffenberg44
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Considering we already have King George V and Duke of York in game, I don't think I'd hold my breath on Prince of Wales.  I'd love to see Repulse (or more likely her elder sister Renown) in game but they'll be a bit hard to tier.  Gneisenau firepower (and wonky 6-gun dispersion) with poor AA and horrible armor.

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Supposedly, HMS Indomitable was supposed to be with them, but she couldn't make it due to a mishap. If she were there, would things have been different, aside from, say, Zeros being sent to cover the bombers?

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They are located here. :cap_tea:

Latitude: 3° 33' 59.99" N
Longitude: 104° 25' 59.99" E

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1 hour ago, RipNuN2 said:

They are located here. :cap_tea:

Latitude: 3° 33' 59.99" N
Longitude: 104° 25' 59.99" E

Unless the scum scrappers have destroyed them.

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6 hours ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

Unless the scum scrappers have destroyed them.

True not much left of them last I heard. 

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Repulse may come someday - British battlecruisers are very possible for a line someday.

PoW however is unlikely - we've already got KGV and DoY... Plus two other tier VII RN BB premiums

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14 hours ago, SeaKnight_1990 said:

Supposedly, HMS Indomitable was supposed to be with them, but she couldn't make it due to a mishap. If she were there, would things have been different, aside from, say, Zeros being sent to cover the bombers?

The IJN strike didn't include Zeroes despite the fact that the RAF/RAAF was in a position to provide at least cover, it could be that fighters weren't available, or that the IJN didn't assess that they were required. If Indomitable had made it out they might have changed things.

On the downside Indomitable had a pretty small fighter group in her early service, maybe a dozen each Fulmars and Sea Hurricanes. Opposed by Zeroes those would be ineffective, however so long as they had radar warning (and the ships were suffering radar malfunctions) to launch in time they might prove effective at breaking up unescorted low-level torpedo attacks. Not all fighters are good, but most torpedo bombers suffer in the face of them.

14 hours ago, Stauffenberg44 said:

The objective of Force Z on December 10 1941, which consisted of one battleship, one battlecruiser and four destroyers, was to intercept the Japanese invasion fleet north of Malaya. The task force sailed without any air support. Although the British had a close encounter with Japanese heavy surface units, the force failed to find and destroy the main convoy. On their return to Singapore they were attacked in open waters and sunk by long-range torpedo bombers. The commander of Force Z, failed to call for air support in favour of maintaining radio silence.

 

A pretty good summary, there was a break down in communication whereby the Admiral had a message that 'there would be no air cover available' and it should have been 'there would be no air cover north of XXX'. However, Phillips screwed up repeatedly, dallying around scouting for ships that weren't there, not calling for air support after the first high level bombing, errors in ship-handling in the first wave - he'd been a desk Admiral for too long.

The overall attack was pretty surprising, as you say those were long range torpedo bombers, and the strike was from something like 450 nautical miles, which is huge range by the standards of the time. Putting torpedoes on twin-engine bombers had been done a bit before that with things like the Sparvierro, and would be done again with things like the Beaufort, but at that time when aircraft like the Swordfish/Devastator can fly 200 nautical miles it wasn't a common thing. 

14 hours ago, kerensky914 said:

Considering we already have King George V and Duke of York in game, I don't think I'd hold my breath on Prince of Wales.  I'd love to see Repulse (or more likely her elder sister Renown) in game but they'll be a bit hard to tier.  Gneisenau firepower (and wonky 6-gun dispersion) with poor AA and horrible armor.

I'd have to agree, PoW's chances look pretty slim. I'd probably have preferred her over DoY but you can't expect to get all of them.

A rebuilt Renown might hang out at T6 fairly well. A Repulse is harder to tier, without as big a refit she's not T6 capable but 15in guns at T5 are something I'm not super keen on.

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15 hours ago, kerensky914 said:

Considering we already have King George V and Duke of York in game, I don't think I'd hold my breath on Prince of Wales.  I'd love to see Repulse (or more likely her elder sister Renown) in game but they'll be a bit hard to tier.  Gneisenau firepower (and wonky 6-gun dispersion) with poor AA and horrible armor.

 Prince of Wales is too important to not get into this game, it will be here, though that is a probably a while, maybe a few years, off.

Also Renown seems to fit in very nice at T6, she's the BC peer of the QE's which are also T6. 

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4 hours ago, Phoenix_jz said:

PoW however is unlikely - we've already got KGV and DoY... Plus two other tier VII RN BB premiums

Yes I realized that as soon as I posted it.

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1 hour ago, mofton said:

The IJN strike didn't include Zeroes despite the fact that the RAF/RAAF was in a position to provide at least cover, it could be that fighters weren't available, or that the IJN didn't assess that they were required. If Indomitable had made it out they might have changed things.

On the downside Indomitable had a pretty small fighter group in her early service, maybe a dozen each Fulmars and Sea Hurricanes. Opposed by Zeroes those would be ineffective, however so long as they had radar warning (and the ships were suffering radar malfunctions) to launch in time they might prove effective at breaking up unescorted low-level torpedo attacks. Not all fighters are good, but most torpedo bombers suffer in the face of them.

A pretty good summary, there was a break down in communication whereby the Admiral had a message that 'there would be no air cover available' and it should have been 'there would be no air cover north of XXX'. However, Phillips screwed up repeatedly, dallying around scouting for ships that weren't there, not calling for air support after the first high level bombing, errors in ship-handling in the first wave - he'd been a desk Admiral for too long.

The overall attack was pretty surprising, as you say those were long range torpedo bombers, and the strike was from something like 450 nautical miles, which is huge range by the standards of the time. Putting torpedoes on twin-engine bombers had been done a bit before that with things like the Sparvierro, and would be done again with things like the Beaufort, but at that time when aircraft like the Swordfish/Devastator can fly 200 nautical miles it wasn't a common thing. 

I'd have to agree, PoW's chances look pretty slim. I'd probably have preferred her over DoY but you can't expect to get all of them.

A rebuilt Renown might hang out at T6 fairly well. A Repulse is harder to tier, without as big a refit she's not T6 capable but 15in guns at T5 are something I'm not super keen on.

A good post and info thanks for that.

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On ‎3‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 11:10 PM, SeaKnight_1990 said:

Supposedly, HMS Indomitable was supposed to be with them, but she couldn't make it due to a mishap. If she were there, would things have been different, aside from, say, Zeros being sent to cover the bombers?

HMS Indomitable ran aground and was unable get to the Far East.

On ‎3‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 1:54 PM, mofton said:

The IJN strike didn't include Zeroes despite the fact that the RAF/RAAF was in a position to provide at least cover, it could be that fighters weren't available, or that the IJN didn't assess that they were required. If Indomitable had made it out they might have changed things.

On the downside Indomitable had a pretty small fighter group in her early service, maybe a dozen each Fulmars and Sea Hurricanes. Opposed by Zeroes those would be ineffective, however so long as they had radar warning (and the ships were suffering radar malfunctions) to launch in time they might prove effective at breaking up unescorted low-level torpedo attacks. Not all fighters are good, but most torpedo bombers suffer in the face of them.

A pretty good summary, there was a break down in communication whereby the Admiral had a message that 'there would be no air cover available' and it should have been 'there would be no air cover north of XXX'. However, Phillips screwed up repeatedly, dallying around scouting for ships that weren't there, not calling for air support after the first high level bombing, errors in ship-handling in the first wave - he'd been a desk Admiral for too long.

The overall attack was pretty surprising, as you say those were long range torpedo bombers, and the strike was from something like 450 nautical miles, which is huge range by the standards of the time. Putting torpedoes on twin-engine bombers had been done a bit before that with things like the Sparvierro, and would be done again with things like the Beaufort, but at that time when aircraft like the Swordfish/Devastator can fly 200 nautical miles it wasn't a common thing. 

I'd have to agree, PoW's chances look pretty slim. I'd probably have preferred her over DoY but you can't expect to get all of them.

A rebuilt Renown might hang out at T6 fairly well. A Repulse is harder to tier, without as big a refit she's not T6 capable but 15in guns at T5 are something I'm not super keen on.

From what I had read, a Squadron of Fighters was designated for Navel support. There were even plans made to have a CAP over Force Z during daylight hours.

Admiral Phillips turned down the CAP, and never called for air support, even while under attack. A Commander on Repulse called in for air support, but it was an hour into the attack.

 

There was also an issue with PoW AA FC systems. Her radar was not working and was estimated to take a week to repair, while she would set sail in days. Her AA ammo was also deteriorating in the heat and humidity of the tropics. That seems to happen a lot in the history of war. Our weapons systems work fine........until we move to another area and the climate changes.

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9 hours ago, Lord_Slayer said:

From what I had read, a Squadron of Fighters was designated for Navel support. There were even plans made to have a CAP over Force Z during daylight hours.

Admiral Phillips turned down the CAP, and never called for air support, even while under attack. A Commander on Repulse called in for air support, but it was an hour into the attack.

Yes, a whole squadron of Brewster Buffaloes sat on the ground all day waiting for the call to go, and yeah Adm. Phillips was over focused on maintaining radio silence and then seems to have suffered some kind of 'combat paralysis'. It was Captain Tennant of the Repulse who finally made the call for help - he had been busy controlling his own ship and came over to see what the deal was with the PoW.

With one squadron of the short-legged Buffaloes available and waves of high level and torpedo bombers coming in at intervals I'm not 100% certain they would have changed the outcome, there's a good chance they might have been suckered into trying to climb to fight the high level (low threat) bombers leaving the path clear for the low-level torpedo bombers. The G4M Betty has a higher cruising speed than the Buffalo, a somewhat lower top speed and the overall performance is unlikely to be wonderful.

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4 minutes ago, mofton said:

Yes, a whole squadron of Brewster Buffaloes sat on the ground all day waiting for the call to go, and yeah Adm. Phillips was over focused on maintaining radio silence and then seems to have suffered some kind of 'combat paralysis'. It was Captain Tennant of the Repulse who finally made the call for help - he had been busy controlling his own ship and came over to see what the deal was with the PoW.

With one squadron of the short-legged Buffaloes available and waves of high level and torpedo bombers coming in at intervals I'm not 100% certain they would have changed the outcome, there's a good chance they might have been suckered into trying to climb to fight the high level (low threat) bombers leaving the path clear for the low-level torpedo bombers. The G4M Betty has a higher cruising speed than the Buffalo, a somewhat lower top speed and the overall performance is unlikely to be wonderful.

 

It didn't help matters that Phillips had driven a desk for a several years without commanding a task force before, he probably only got to where he was because his relationship with Churchill. In short the man was out of his depth and had little idea of what he was doing. He missed several opportunities that could of saved ships or at least minimised his losses.

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1 hour ago, Monty9185 said:

 

It didn't help matters that Phillips had driven a desk for a several years without commanding a task force before, he probably only got to where he was because his relationship with Churchill. In short the man was out of his depth and had little idea of what he was doing. He missed several opportunities that could of saved ships or at least minimised his losses.

Didn't Churchill have it in for Captain Leach as well?

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9 minutes ago, Sventex said:

Didn't Churchill have it in for Captain Leach as well?

Churchill had it in for a lot of officers, sometimes it's like he thinks anyone who isn't yolo-ing the Des Moines and Missouri in their Benson at C cap is a noob.

1 hour ago, Monty9185 said:

 

It didn't help matters that Phillips had driven a desk for a several years without commanding a task force before, he probably only got to where he was because his relationship with Churchill. In short the man was out of his depth and had little idea of what he was doing. He missed several opportunities that could of saved ships or at least minimised his losses.

All very true. Apparently Admirals were in rather short supply and decent ones even more so at the time.

Today the RN has far more Admirals than major warships so... well, another problem.

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2 hours ago, mofton said:

Yes, a whole squadron of Brewster Buffaloes sat on the ground all day waiting for the call to go, and yeah Adm. Phillips was over focused on maintaining radio silence and then seems to have suffered some kind of 'combat paralysis'. It was Captain Tennant of the Repulse who finally made the call for help - he had been busy controlling his own ship and came over to see what the deal was with the PoW.

With one squadron of the short-legged Buffaloes available and waves of high level and torpedo bombers coming in at intervals I'm not 100% certain they would have changed the outcome, there's a good chance they might have been suckered into trying to climb to fight the high level (low threat) bombers leaving the path clear for the low-level torpedo bombers. The G4M Betty has a higher cruising speed than the Buffalo, a somewhat lower top speed and the overall performance is unlikely to be wonderful.

Even though the Buffaloes were dated, outclassed, and out numbered, they still would have been something in the air opposing the Japanese. Instead of having open sky and the ability to attack at will, the Japanese would have been trying to get on their target and get out. When you are hurrying and looking around for the enemy, you can make mistakes, those mistakes might have allowed PoW and Repulse to survive

2 hours ago, Monty9185 said:

It didn't help matters that Phillips had driven a desk for a several years without commanding a task force before, he probably only got to where he was because his relationship with Churchill.

 

1 hour ago, Sventex said:

Didn't Churchill have it in for Captain Leach as well?

Churchill was a former First Lord of the Admiralty and had a particular interest in the Navy. As wartime Prime Minister, he likely felt as if he was the First Lord again. The fact he was 'fired' from the First Lord position may also have influenced him.

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Both wrecks of PoW and Repulse are relatively intact.  They are just deep enough that you need to technical dive meaning it's really hard for illicit scrap collectors to get to them.

tumblr_nlu28eehPB1r94kvzo1_500.jpg

For details on PoW's demise some reading for insomnia...

https://www.pacificwrecks.com/ships/hms/prince_of_wales/death-of-a-battleship-2012-update.pdf

A Computer composite of the Repulse wreck:

Repulse-computer-animated-drawing1.jpg

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As far as I am concerned, Phillips was not suited to command a garbage scow. The epileptic dancing chicken Leeroy Jenkins lemming train he forced Force Z to act as was probably the stupidest naval venture in recent history.

He probably decided to go down with his ship out of the cowardice of potentially getting flayed alive by post-war analysts. It may well be that instead of Leeroy Jenkins, we would instead refer to "pulling a Thomas Phillips", which would be fitting of the stupidity shown by this map.

MapB1941-SEAsia-ForceZ.GIF

The lack of a beeline from northeast of the Anamba Islands to the Japanese landing zones, using whatever fields are still available from Kuantan to Singora to provide modestly disruptive air cover (even a couple of fighters in the air would at least harry unescorted twin-engined bombers or make even escorted bombers take their time less) is a sign that Phillips probably committed de facto suicide to avoid a court-martial for criminal indecisiveness.

Then there was the decision to flee at 8:15 PM on the 9th instead of doing a straight run under cover of darkness to at least fight to the death at the Japanese landing beaches. If you're already going on a lemming train for politics and stuck your head in it, at least achieve your damned objectives and disrupt the enemy's activities and be a proper martyr instead of running away with tail between legs after getting spooked (without even an aerial attack to actually spook you) and showing yourself a snivelling coward that no one would look up to!

And I'm not even going to get into wondering why the *BLEEP* he turned northeast in the morning of the sinking instead of continuing at max speed south while calling for air support. If you've decided to conserve your force instead of expend it to achieve an objective, then actually secure the conservation of said force!

...And don't even get me started on maintaining radio silence after you sighted Japanese aircraft. If you can see that dot against the sky, then they can see your giant wakes if not spot your ships outright. Phillips was too dumb to even understand that the huge boat he is on is easier to see at the same distance as a single aircraft that the Japanese are in, staring right back at him.

It would have been quite convenient for the Allies if a single bomb had hit the bridge of the PoW during the initial bombing at 1113 (instead of focusing on Repulse) and put William Tennant of the Repulse in charge of the whole operation. Because at the very least Tennant would likely have had the competence to IMMEDIATELY call for air cover (instead of the IRL waiting an HOUR cause of rigid RN hierarchy before he decided "*BLEEP* that desk-steering fool Phillips, I'm calling for fighters").

In fact, I suspect an alternate history story could be written based on this premise... or if the divergence is too late, the premise that Tennant was put in charge of the operation from the beginning. Leach would also be workable if Churchill had it in for him, because Churchill, while good at speeches, was, well...

Edited by Guardian54
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On 14/03/2018 at 3:08 AM, Murotsu said:

Both wrecks of PoW and Repulse are relatively intact.  They are just deep enough that you need to technical dive meaning it's really hard for illicit scrap collectors to get to them.

tumblr_nlu28eehPB1r94kvzo1_500.jpg

For details on PoW's demise some reading for insomnia...

https://www.pacificwrecks.com/ships/hms/prince_of_wales/death-of-a-battleship-2012-update.pdf

A Computer composite of the Repulse wreck:

Repulse-computer-animated-drawing1.jpg

 

It hasn't exactly stopped them trying though apparently.

 

 

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Wargaming should just add ship config's in the form of camos for sister ships of the same class. It would be really easy to do and would allow for people's favorite ship to be in the game. Modeling out separate premiums wouldn't work really in the long-term. I have no doubt that if your grandfather or great-grandfather served on those ships that you would like to see them in game. However, it takes a lot of time and resources to Q and A besides just adding the ship model in the game. Duke of York, for instance, a sister-ship to King George 5 doesn't have much going for it. All one gains is hydro and some AA while losing reload by 4 seconds and losing one repair party.  What I am saying is that wargaming is in the business of making money while satisfying the needs of the players. For battleships yes it may be easier as there are normally 3-4 in each class, but when you get into CV(3-5 ships), cruisers(1-100's), and Destroyers(100-1,000) it adds up very quickly. The camo solution makes the most sense as it allows you to have your ship in the game. The challenge of making sister ships premiums is how do you make them different from the normal ship. Feel free to disagree it's just how I see Wg addressing this. @Lert your thoughts are always appreciated if you'd like to add in on this.

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I for one, would LOVE to see Prince of Whales. Why not replace Duke of York ( If you have it, you keep it) and replace it with Prince of Whales? You'd get another $40 from me. Lol 

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On 3/5/2018 at 7:57 PM, kerensky914 said:

Considering we already have King George V and Duke of York in game, I don't think I'd hold my breath on Prince of Wales.  I'd love to see Repulse (or more likely her elder sister Renown) in game but they'll be a bit hard to tier.  Gneisenau firepower (and wonky 6-gun dispersion) with poor AA and horrible armor.

I wonder if the Renown-class battlecruisers were going to receive an upgrade...like Hood before she was deployed against the Bismarck.  That could help balance her for the tier.

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