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BrandonKF

Stats Showing Why 100mm Guns Should Get Quarter Pen...

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This is my Kii.

This is my Kii against an Iowa in a brawl.

Iowa captain did not know Kii has torpedoes.

I use torpedoes liberally.

But...

Look at the secondaries.

We discussed this in this thread:

Back to my Kii.

28516055_10156796331804386_6598536548274

That's 153 hits.

28514888_10156796332169386_6618970641145

131 hits with the 100mm rifles. 0 damage.

22 hits with the 140mm rifles. 540 damage.

Akizuki, Kii, French battleships, and those utilizing the 100mm weapons are woefully unable to do much more than start a fire with their weapons, and I think it needs to be addressed more often.

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9 minutes ago, NeutralState said:

This is the problem with flat % performance boosting skills.

Please clarify.

My Kii is secondary build. The only thing I don't have is Manual Secondary.

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Your Kii build is wrong. No need to change 100mm guns.

 

Akizuki is already top damage DD at T8. Buffing it would be a poor idea.

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2 minutes ago, BrandonKF said:

Please clarify.

My Kii is secondary build. The only thing I don't have is Manual Secondary.

You apparently don't have IFHE, since you did soooo little secondary damage.

Regardless, Brandon, I feel for you on this issue.  To me, there's something wrong when a gun is so small that has next to no chance of penetrating unless you take IFHE.  I'm not really fond of skills that are so critical to a ship's basic performance that there's effectively no choice but to take them.  I will say though that I'm not quite sure that I'd put 100mm Kii secondaries in the same category as the 100mm main guns on the Akizuki, since secondaries aren't nearly as important to a ship's performance as its main guns.  But still, there are other guns out there that get built in IFHE, often with no really good reason other than to make decent guns good.  However, the 100mm guns on the Akizuki (and HSF Harekaze B hull) aren't "decent" without IFHE.  They just plain stink without IFHE.  So I'd have no problem at all with 100mm guns getting built-in IFHE to make them usable without requiring such an expensive 4 point skill.

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5 minutes ago, Grizley said:

Your Kii build is wrong. No need to change 100mm guns.

 

Akizuki is already top damage DD at T8. Buffing it would be a poor idea.

I doubt that giving the Akizuki built-in IFHE would make its damage output any higher.  It seems to me that all it'd do is free up those 4 skill points for something that's probably less directly attributable to damage production.  

No gun should be so bad that it requires IFHE to be usable, particularly when we see German main guns getting IFHE for free when they're not that bad, and RN BB main guns also getting built-in IFHE, as if any BB's main guns really need it built-in.  Honestly, with those examples already on the books, I don't think that it's defensible to not give 100mm guns built-in IFHE.

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1 minute ago, Crucis said:

You apparently don't have IFHE, since you did soooo little secondary damage.

Regardless, Brandon, I feel for you on this issue.  To me, there's something wrong when a gun is so small that has next to no chance of penetrating unless you take IFHE.  I'm not really fond of skills that are so critical to a ship's basic performance that there's effectively no choice but to take them.  I will say though that I'm not quite sure that I'd put 100mm Kii secondaries in the same category as the 100mm main guns on the Akizuki, since secondaries aren't nearly as important to a ship's performance as its main guns.  But still, there are other guns out there that get built in IFHE, often with no really good reason other than to make decent guns good.  However, the 100mm guns on the Akizuki (and HSF Harekaze B hull) aren't "decent" without IFHE.  They just plain stink without IFHE.  So I'd have no problem at all with 100mm guns getting built-in IFHE to make them usable without requiring such an expensive 4 point skill.

I tried, but the lack of Fire Prevention hurt.

And true, the secondaries on Kii are not intended to outperform its main guns.

However, Kii's 1.7 sigma on her guns makes her main gun performance just as terrible as Roma, with less high damage output, while still facing tier IX and X ships that laugh at paltry secondaries like this.

And thank you for reminding of Harekaze in this equation, I knew I was missing something.

These pop-guns, in spite of their rapid fire, aren't even capable of penetrating a destroyer's hull without IFHE, making them absolutely useless in what should be either the ship's primary means of damage against equal opponents (Akizuki and Harekaze B hull), or a semi-effective counter to their hunters (as Kii against tier IX and X destroyers).

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4 minutes ago, Crucis said:

You apparently don't have IFHE, since you did soooo little secondary damage.

Regardless, Brandon, I feel for you on this issue.  To me, there's something wrong when a gun is so small that has next to no chance of penetrating unless you take IFHE.  I'm not really fond of skills that are so critical to a ship's basic performance that there's effectively no choice but to take them.  I will say though that I'm not quite sure that I'd put 100mm Kii secondaries in the same category as the 100mm main guns on the Akizuki, since secondaries aren't nearly as important to a ship's performance as its main guns.  But still, there are other guns out there that get built in IFHE, often with no really good reason other than to make decent guns good.  However, the 100mm guns on the Akizuki (and HSF Harekaze B hull) aren't "decent" without IFHE.  They just plain stink without IFHE.  So I'd have no problem at all with 100mm guns getting built-in IFHE to make them usable without requiring such an expensive 4 point skill.

 

100% this. I would love to actually see  1/4 pen on these guns so that I could actually put 4 points into Manual AA fire instead of IFHE. Maybe then I could somewhat start to compare against the USDD when it comes to AA. =p

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8 minutes ago, Grizley said:

Your Kii build is wrong. No need to change 100mm guns.

Akizuki is already top damage DD at T8. Buffing it would be a poor idea.

Thank you Grizley for this opinion.

However, allow me to underline this.

"Your Kii build is wrong."

Am I wrong to believe that a captain's skill build should be able to be tailored to the individual player's desires, not to continuing a prescribed meta of the game servers?

That was overall the reason why Wargaming gave us the ability to customize captains to our personal desires, yes?

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11 minutes ago, Rocketpacman said:

Why should they be able to do much more than that? 

See my above quoting of Crucis.

These guns cannot even effectively damage destroyers, which I believe secondaries were intended to at least assist in.

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6 minutes ago, BrandonKF said:

Thank you Grizley for this opinion.

However, allow me to underline this.

"Your Kii build is wrong."

Am I wrong to believe that a captain's skill build should be able to be tailored to the individual player's desires, not to continuing a prescribed meta of the game servers?

That was overall the reason why Wargaming gave us the ability to customize captains to our personal desires, yes?

 

Ok, but if I take IFHE on the Des Moines it does nothing.  I can take it, but if I'm expecting to penning new things I will be sadly disappointed.

Should WG alter the game to make IF HE Des Moines more appealing or should I accept that it's a suboptimal skill and pick something else?

Since I can actually act on the latter, that's a better solution even if the former didn't have any negative side effects. It most certainly would have negative side effects too.

For that matter, if I take Firey Takeoff on my Gearing is that on me for choosing poorly or on WG for not giving the Gearing aircraft?

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12 minutes ago, BrandonKF said:

See my above quoting of Crucis.

These guns cannot even effectively damage destroyers, which I believe secondaries were intended to at least assist in.

This is an excellent point, Brandon.  What's the point of even mounting secondary guns (i.e. the 100mm guns) on a BB if they can't even damage the very ships they exist to engage, i.e. destroyers?

 

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2 minutes ago, Grizley said:

 

Ok, but if I take IFHE on the Des Moines it does nothing.  I can take it, but if I'm expecting to penning new things I will be sadly disappointed.

Should WG alter the game to make IF HE Des Moines more appealing or should I accept that it's a suboptimal skill and pick something else?

Since I can actually act on the latter, that's a better solution even if the former didn't have any negative side effects. It most certainly would have negative side effects too.

For that matter, if I take Firey Takeoff on my Gearing is that on me for choosing poorly or on WG for not giving the Gearing aircraft?

Your Des Moines doesn't have 100mm main guns. In addition, it also can switch ammunition to AP to citadel my Kii every 8 or 9 seconds.

Obviously Wargaming cannot create two tables of skills separately to differentiate between surface ships and carriers, thus we are left with what we have, one universal table of skills. Still, yes, if you choose to take a carrier skill on a surface ship, I'd say that is on you.

But I'm not asking for Wargaming developers to make all skills universal to all captains.

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I recall hearing a warships dev state at one point they don't really like it when ships have to take a commander skill specifically to be effective, and for the Akizuki, Harekaze, and the 100 secondaries on the Kii it's pretty much mandatory.  Though to be fair the 100 mm on the Kii are for air defence more then anti ship work.

 if you happen to get uptiered in the AKi or Harekaze and run into a Khab, just shoot your self, it'll hurt less then watching pretty much all of your shells shatter for zero damage..and the AP performance of the 100mm shells is pretty abysmal also.. they will pen a Khab out to 10 km, but the Khab will need to be at less the 30 degrees or so of angle or the AP will also shatter or ricochet.   Frustrating doesn't even begin.
 

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3 minutes ago, BrandonKF said:

Your Des Moines doesn't have 100mm main guns. In addition, it also can switch ammunition to AP to citadel my Kii every 8 or 9 seconds.

Obviously Wargaming cannot create two tables of skills separately to differentiate between surface ships and carriers, thus we are left with what we have, one universal table of skills. Still, yes, if you choose to take a carrier skill on a surface ship, I'd say that is on you.

But I'm not asking for Wargaming developers to make all skills universal to all captains.

 

But you are. You're asking for a change to make your skill picks better, rather than picking better skills.

 

It's a change that is not needed and would additionally create balance changes. You need to be able to show a net positive for a change and the only positive you've even put up for discussion is making a secondary build Kii better. That's a pretty weak reason. Especially considering it would also buff an already borderline OP DD.

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3 minutes ago, TL_Warlord_Roff said:

I recall hearing a warships dev state at one point they don't really like it when ships have to take a commander skill specifically to be effective, and for the Akizuki, Harekaze, and the 100 secondaries on the Kii it's pretty much mandatory.  Though to be fair the 100 mm on the Kii are for air defence more then anti ship work.

 if you happen to get uptiered in the AKi or Harekaze and run into a Khab, just shoot your self, it'll hurt less then watching pretty much all of your shells shatter for zero damage..and the AP performance of the 100mm shells is pretty abysmal also.. they will pen a Khab out to 10 km, but the Khab will need to be at less the 30 degrees or so of angle or the AP will also shatter or ricochet.   Frustrating doesn't even begin.
 

In fairness, yes, the 100mm secondaries are designed for extreme AA. But that doesn't change the fact that aside from the hull-mounted 140mm rifles, which have limited firing arcs to begin with, the 100mm are the only fast turning turrets capable of keeping up with a destroyer enough to pose some deterrent to an aggressive destroyer captain on a torpedo run.

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3 minutes ago, Grizley said:

 

But you are. You're asking for a change to make your skill picks better, rather than picking better skills.

 

It's a change that is not needed and would additionally create balance changes. You need to be able to show a net positive for a change and the only positive you've even put up for discussion is making a secondary build Kii better. That's a pretty weak reason. Especially considering it would also buff an already borderline OP DD.

I disagree. As @TL_Warlord_Roff stated, an Akizuki against a tier IX or X destroyer does not stand a chance of surviving.

The only way those 100mm gun armed ships can get the damage they do is fire-farming battleships. This does not make it OP. It just means that Akizuki drivers cannot fight their own opponents effectively, and neither can Kii or the French ships that have the same caliber weapons.

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only because I know someone will want to come along and tell me how reality has nothing to do with this game...

So back in the golden days of Dreadnought -- circa-1915 -- a number of British and French dreadnoughts and pre-dreadnought started an operation to force the Dardanelles Straights.  The Turks responded with a lot of low caliber field guns -- 77mm to 105mm stuff that was drug around by horses.  While this range of gun caliber and the huge amount of HE they were lobbing was great at suppressing, sinking or driving off smaller mine sweepers and such, their effect against Dreadnought and pre-dreadnoughts was almost nil -- aside from the psychological effect of the huge volume of HE shell fire these field batteries were cranking out.  Primary loss of capitol ships during the Galliopli campaign was from mines that the Turks would float down current toward Allied ships. 

The calibers the OP is talking about on the KII aren't really conducive to damaging BBs -- neither in-game nor is there much historical precedent for small caliber secondaries to be particularly effective against BBs.  Secondary batteries were originally intended as an anti-torpedo boat weapon.  I personally don't have an issue with sub-5 and 6-inch caliber HE having very little effect on heavily armored BBs and Cruisers.  

Regarding the Akizuki -- even with IFHE -- most folks can attest to the shear volume of fire you have to put out to have much effect on a BB.  Personally if Im in an Akizuki and have the misfortune of having to fight a BB with only gunfire, I'm relying more upon constantly setting fires when machinegunning a BB with 105mm's.  Get 2 or 3 fires going and the BB driver will use his repair.  Keep machinegunning the BB until you get additional fires after the repair kits already been used.  Thats when I start seeing the damage start to accumulate.              

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14 minutes ago, BrandonKF said:

I disagree. As @TL_Warlord_Roff stated, an Akizuki against a tier IX or X destroyer does not stand a chance of surviving.

The only way those 100mm gun armed ships can get the damage they do is fire-farming battleships. This does not make it OP. It just means that Akizuki drivers cannot fight their own opponents effectively, and neither can Kii or the French ships that have the same caliber weapons.

 

Then you need to explain how it leads all T8 DDs in damage and is second in win rate only to the Kidd. 

Fire farming BBs doesn't lead to wins.  

Buffing the Akizuki in any form would be a bad thing for balance.  It's already right on the border of acceptable performance.

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2 minutes ago, Grizley said:

Then you need to explain how it leads all T8 DDs in damage and is second in win rate only to the Kidd. 

Fire farming.

2 minutes ago, Grizley said:

Fire farming BBs doesn't lead to wins.  

Yes it can.

2 minutes ago, Grizley said:

Buffing the Akizuki in any form would be a bad thing for balance.  It's already right on the border of acceptable performance.

Only if said Akizuki escapes other destroyers which it cannot even feasibly fight in the first place.

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Akizuki is fine without IFHE. I don't have that captain skill and yet regularly do tons of damage with it. I had a 90k game a couple nights ago where I didn't even fire a single torpedo - all damage was from guns and fire. IIRC, it was about 28k fire and 62k pure gun damage.

It helps knowing when to use AP,  too.

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11 minutes ago, BrandonKF said:

Only if said Akizuki escapes other destroyers which it cannot even feasibly fight in the first place.

3 second reload on guns that do just fine against pretty much anything but a Khabab? An Aki at close range is a nightmare to enemy DDs.

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2 minutes ago, Jarink said:

Akizuki is fine without IFHE. I don't have that captain skill and yet regularly do tons of damage with it. I had a 90k game a couple nights ago where I didn't even fire a single torpedo - all damage was from guns and fire. IIRC, it was about 28k fire and 62k pure gun damage.

It helps knowing when to use AP,  too.

 What were you playing against that match?

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51 minutes ago, BrandonKF said:

Fire farming.

Yes it can.

Only if said Akizuki escapes other destroyers which it cannot even feasibly fight in the first place.

 

Fire farming absolutely does not win games.  Anyone with a half decent understanding of the game knows that fire damage is THE LEAST valuable type of damage.  It's slow and fully repairable.  By contrast, a citadel is nearly entirely permanent damage and instant.  That's a far more valuable type of damage.

Look at the Conq.  If fire damage won games then Conq wouldn't be middle of the pack to below average on win rate while being top damage.   It does a lot of damage, but it does it to BBs, and with fire/he.  That is much less useful than doing AP to cruisers.  Similarly Akizuki can burn BBs, and some of the damage is just that, but it also has better DPM than any DD not named Khabarovsk.  For that matter, if I remember right it's right around the same as Khabarovsk, the difference being that it has to worry about smaller shells while Khab just does it from anywhere.  Let that sink in.  A T8 DD, DPM on par with a T10 pure gunboat.  It also has better torps and more stealth, just throwing that out there.

Akizuki is one of the best DDs at T8 for bullying other DDs.  The DDs that give it trouble are...

Kebab, it's T10 armored as hell and has the same damage.  

Z-52, it's T10.  It uses smoke/hydro to kill stupid Akis that fall for it.

Lol Yang, it's a slightly less crazy Z-52 at T8.

Kidd.  If the Kidd gets in multiple small engagements it can wear down the health of the Aki while healing it's damage back up.

Other than that, Akizuki has the advantage over all other DDs that it will face.  So outside of two of the T10 DDs, arguably one of the T9s, and two of the T8s it has the advantage.  Nothing else has that sort of anti-DD power outside of the Z-52.  The two T8s aren't even disadvantage fights, it's knowing the ships so you don't play like a crayon eating window licker and get yourself outplayed.  IE. Don't let the Kidd nibble and don't let the Lol Yang smokebang you.

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