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JohnPJones

Olympia, should she be in game?

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She’d likely have to be a premium but I’m not sure what tier would be best though.

T4 premium cruiser and the US’ lowest tier 8” cruiser?

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Tier 2.  It's pre-dreadnought.

It's kind of slow, turrets rotate even slower, and dispersion is...   well....

Secondaries are nice, though.

Like a cross between Mikasa and Chester.

...

The Olympia is kept above the 'Salt Line' on the Delaware River, so it's deterioration is not so bad.

http://www.state.nj.us/drbc/hydrological/river/salt-line.html

 

Edited by AVR_Project

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St. Louis is pre-dreadnought if I’m not mistaken and the Olympia is a stronger ship.

premium event ship at T4 it poor dispersion for main battery to offset caliber?

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I have been asking for this ship since before day of this game

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1 hour ago, JohnPJones said:

St. Louis is pre-dreadnought if I’m not mistaken and the Olympia is a stronger ship.

premium event ship at T4 it poor dispersion for main battery to offset caliber?

She's not. 

St. Louis was built about a decade after Olympia.  She's an armored cruiser with an armored belt and an armored deck, Olympia is a protected cruiser with only the armored deck.  St Louis has lots of 6 inch guns which are individually nearly as hard hitting as the four 8 inch/35's on the Olympia and having a much higher muzzle velocity have a flatter trajectory than the much lower muzzle velocity of Olympia's 8 inch/35's.  In addition, Olympia's 5 inch gun secondary battery is also significantly less effective than the 6 inch guns of St. Louis due to the type of powder used in them (brown semi-smokeless powder vs cordite based smokeless powder).

Another advantage St. Louis has is the kind of steel used in her armor.  Pretty much all of the vessels in WOWS use Krupp Steel or Krupp Cemented Steel which was a hardened steel designed specifically to defeat the various types of armored piercing shell designs.  Krupp Steel was the culmination of a lot of research and work done in the 1890's which saw a revolution in how to produce increasingly resistant steel alloys and hardening processes which allowed an increase in protective qualities for every inch of protection mounted. 

The Olympia herself used Harvey Steel which was essentially an earlier type of hardening process which the Krupp system was an improved and more effective variant. Essentially every inch of Harvey Steel provided about 75% of the protection of the same thickness of Krupp Steel so not only does Olympia have less protection overall than St. Louis, that protection was also less effective inch for inch. 

So yes, if you just look at the number and size of the guns carried and the top speed you might think that the ships are fairly equivalent but that would be deceiving. In fact by the time St. Louis came around, Olympia was shedding her mixed battery of 8 inch guns and old 5 inch guns for a new uniform battery of 5 inch guns similar to those mounted on the unimproved versions of the Chester in WOWS. These guns were considered a significant improvement in performance and she carried them throughout the remainder of her service. 

This doesn't mean that she wouldn't have a place in WOWS but it does mean that she would be outclassed by the cruisers she'd meet above tier II. 

 

Edited by BB3_Oregon_Steel

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It’s just complicated by WG’s system for the tech trees.

an 8” cruiser before T5 would be OP but I don’t think you can reasonably make Olympia T5+

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9 minutes ago, BB3_Oregon_Steel said:

She's not. 

St. Louis was built about a decade after Olympia.  She's an armored cruiser with an armored belt and an armored deck, Olympia is a protected cruiser with only the armored deck.  St Louis has lots of 6 inch guns which are individually nearly as hard hitting as the four 8 inch/35's on the Olympia and having a much higher muzzle velocity have a flatter trajectory than the much lower muzzle velocity of Olympia's 8 inch/35's.  In addition, Olympia's 5 inch gun secondary battery is also significantly less effective than the 6 inch guns of St. Louis due to the type of powder used in them (brown semi-smokeless powder vs cordite based smokeless powder).

Another advantage St. Louis has is the kind of steel used in her armor.  Pretty much all of the vessels in WOWS use Krupp Steel or Krupp Cemented Steel which was a hardened steel designed specifically to defeat the various types of armored piercing shell designs.  Krupp Steel was the culmination of a lot of research and work done in the 1890's which saw a revolution in how to produce increasingly resistant steel alloys and hardening processes which allowed an increase in protective qualities for every inch of protection mounted. 

The Olympia herself used Harvey Steel which was essentially an earlier type of hardening process which the Krupp system was an improved and more effective variant. Essentially every inch of Harvey Steel provided about 75% of the protection of the same thickness of Krupp Steel so not only does Olympia have less protection overall than St. Louis, that protection was also less effective inch for inch. 

So yes, if you just look at the number and size of the guns carried and the top speed you might think that the ships are fairly equivalent but that would be deceiving. In fact by the time St. Louis came around, Olympia was shedding her mixed battery of 8 inch guns and old 5 inch guns for a new uniform battery of 5 inch guns similar to those mounted on the unimproved versions of the Chester in WOWS. These guns were considered a significant improvement in performance and she carried them throughout the remainder of her service. 

 

St. Louis is in fact pre-Dreadnought as I originally posted. But please explain how a ship launched in 1905 isn’t pre-Dreadnought 

wow I would have never guessed 6” guns were better than 5” guns my mind is blown...

and yet having enclosed protected turrets gives the Olympia a significant advantage.

also the olympia’s Torpedo tubes would still give it an advantage over the St. Louis  super short ranged but if the Olympia was losing a gun fight she could close in for the torpedo launch

 

Edited by JohnPJones
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3 hours ago, JohnPJones said:

St. Louis is in fact pre-Dreadnought as I originally posted. But please explain how a ship launched in 1905 isn’t pre-Dreadnought 

wow I would have never guessed 6” guns were better than 5” guns my mind is blown...

and yet having enclosed protected turrets gives the Olympia a significant advantage.

also the olympia’s Torpedo tubes would still give it an advantage over the St. Louis  super short ranged but if the Olympia was losing a gun fight she could close in for the torpedo launch

 

Ok lets forget about the sarcasm and I'll provide you with a learning moment.  

Pre-Dreadnought refers to a certain Battleship design that came into being around 1890 and continued to be the predominant capital ship type until the arrival of HMS Dreadnought in 1907.  To be an actual Pre-Dreadnought, the St. Louis she would need to be a Battleship, not a cruiser. 

The St. Louis was an armored cruiser launched in 1905 which places her date of construction near the very end of the Pre-Dreadnought era.  While some armored cruisers built during the period did have design features similar to that of a pre-dreadnought (i.e. a mixed battery with four heavy guns in in two twin turrets with a bunch of smaller secondary guns in casemate mountings was typical) the St. Louis carried a uniform main battery which, on a much smaller scale, was a similar concept to that of a Dreadnought with their all big gun design. 

Yes, 6 inch guns firing smokeless cordite powder are FAR more powerful than 5 inch guns firing brown or semi-smokless powder.  Another difference I should have added was that, despite their larger size, the 6 inch guns of the St. Louis were "quick firing" (that being a technical term of the age) and had a higher rate of fire that the "breach loading" (a technical term used for earlier versions of these weapons with different breach arrangements but also denoting that the guns used bag loaded powder rather than a single shell casing which further slowed loading times) guns on the Olympia.  Further, the individual 6 inch guns of the St Louis were nearly as effective as those the 8 inch guns on the Olympia.  The makes her firepower considerably superior to Olympia's from pretty much any way you want to look at it.  That was my point, got that?

Yes, the Olympia had turrets, however all except the bow and stern guns on the St. Louis were emplaced in armored casemates with 4 inches of Krupp Steel protection.  Conversely, the main battery turrets of the Olympia carried 3.5 inches of Harvey Steel (about 2.6 inches of Krupp Steel equivalent). This makes the vast majority of St. Louis's main battery better protected that Olympia's. 

The main advantage Olympia's turret mounting possesses is that it allowed Olympia to bring her full main battery to bear to either broadside, however the turrets were of an older design with equal protection to all faces, whether it was needed or not.  This made the turret excessively heavy and slow to traverse.   St. Louis on the other hand had more firepower on one side than all of Olympia's main battery could muster and they were far quicker to bring to bear.  It's really a fallacy that turret arrangements always equaled better protection which in this instance, they do not. 

Next, there is a reason later cruisers like the St. Louis were designed without the torpedo tubes carried by Olympia. they didn't work very well if at all.  The type of single tube launchers used by Olympia had very limited arcs of fire and could only effectively be used at relatively slow speeds, the torpedoes used were small, had a top speed of about 25 knots and could only travel about 800 yards at most and really had trouble staying on course beyond about 400 meters.  The point here is that Olympia's torpedoes are the next best thing to worthless in an actual battle against anything other than a stationary target at point blank range.  The doesn't give the Olympia much of an advantage unless the St. Louis obligingly comes along side and then parks while the Olympia aligns herself, sights in her tubes and launches a couple torpedoes to crawl their way towards her.

The Olympia would be fun to have in the game but she's a product of an earlier period of naval warfare and doesn't fit well beyond the lowest tiers of WOWS cruisers. She might well be outclassed by the T2 vessels in the game.  

 

Edited by BB3_Oregon_Steel
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Pre-Dreadnought typically refers to battleship design, but since BBs were the focal point of a fleet a significant change in B.B. design will result in a significant change in the way naval battles are fought, so pre-Dreadnought is an entire era of naval warfare.

 

im pretty sure the increase in gun ranges is most of the reason why torpedoes with an 800yd range were done away with on cruisers...

i cant say for certain, but I’d be willing to bet the Olympia’s 8” guns wouldn’t have much trouble with St. Louis’ armor, the only question  is probably whether or not the St. Louis’ 6s had a longer range than Olympia’s 8s, and going by wiki the 8s had a longer range.

speed of each were nearly identical the st Louis being .3 kt faster, but to fire her main battery she wouldn’t be able to sail a straight line so as long as the Olympia maintains distance its likely Olympia would still win.

Edited by JohnPJones

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The Olympia’s 5s had a max range of 16,000yds granted their effective range was basically half that, but the St. Louis is far from a hands down better ship.

it had significant advantages but the advantages aren’t so significant to make it a one sided fight.

but this isn’t a simulator style game it’s an arcade style game, and I’m pretty sure they’d make X# of inches of armor all the same to be completely honest, and in game a few salvoes from the Olympia’s 8” guns would likely be capable of eating away a St. Louis’ HP very quickly...since this is all incontext of the game.

Edited by JohnPJones

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Yes the design of the battleships of the era did influence cruiser design, however the St Louis, while built during the Pre-Dreadnought age, was built at the very end of that age and share very little of the design concepts with typified a Pre-Dreadnought and used instead a uniform sized main battery which is the same concept used by HMS Dreadnought which would be launched two years later. 

Well the Olympia's torpedoes were doomed by their short range and their painfully slow speed.  The torpedoes of these types were designed to be used against stationary targets in harbor or to finish off disabled enemies as opposed to be used in pitched battles at sea.  It wasn't until the mounting concepts changed and the torpedoes were improved to obtain a useful range and speed that the concept became actually viable in a cruiser design. 

I did look up the spec for these guns on Wikipedia as well.  The 6 inch/50 cal guns on the St. Louis had a maximum range of 15,000 yards at about 15 degrees of elevation using the charges available at the time of her construction.  The Olympia's 8 inch/35's had a maximum range of 16,000 yards at 20 degrees of elevation. The maximum elevation of the Mark 6 turrets used in Olympia however could only elevate to a maximum of 13 degrees which makes her maximum considerably shorter than that.  The gun mountings on the St. Louis would have much more closely approached the 15 degrees elevation and as such, while the 8/35 might have had a longer absolute range than the 6/50 (we don't know since we don't know the 6/50's range at 20 degrees of elevation), the Olympia was incapable of making use of that range due to elevation limitations of her turrets.  As such it's highly likely that the St Louis would easily reach or exceed the actual range of Olympia's main battery. 

I'm not really sure at what point an 8 inch/35 shell fired at a muzzle velocity of 650 mps would be able to penetrate St. Louis's belt and/or her armored deck. I'm sure at some range it would be possible to achieve.  However there's not much doubt that the 6/50's on the St. Louis with their 850 mps muzzle velocity would have little trouble with Olympia's Harvey Armor at most ranges.  Olympia's shells, even if they had the same or similar range to St Louis's 6/50's are going to be extremely floaty and much harder to land on a moving target at range unless it's quarry is a close range where the trajectories begin to flatten out. The St Louis will also be firing a LOT more shells which make it even easier for her to land hits on Olympia where the Olympia's return fire hitting would be more a function of luck than anything else (think Mikasa, but worse, much worse).  

I'd actually give St Louis a firm nod when it comes to a long range duel with Olympia as she simply can land her shells on target at pretty much any range and Olympia effectively can't. She simply doesn't have enough guns and the ones she has fire really really slowly. 

Olympia's best bet would be at closer range, probably at the point where her shell arcs flatten out and where the heavier weight of shell can begin to better cancel out the arthritic shell velocity and energy of her guns.  Shorter ranges would also help her better penetrate St Louis's sturdier armored scheme somewhat canceling out the other ships protective advantages. This might give her a chance to land a solid salvo into St Louis with the possibility of hitting something important, possibly before St Louis can do the same. 

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44 minutes ago, JohnPJones said:

The Olympia’s 5s had a max range of 16,000yds granted their effective range was basically half that, but the St. Louis is far from a hands down better ship.

it had significant advantages but the advantages aren’t so significant to make it a one sided fight.

but this isn’t a simulator style game it’s an arcade style game, and I’m pretty sure they’d make X# of inches of armor all the same to be completely honest, and in game a few salvoes from the Olympia’s 8” guns would likely be capable of eating away a St. Louis’ HP very quickly...since this is all incontext of the game.

Granted.  However when you think of how easily the Olympia's 8 inch guns could deal with St. Louis's protection, I'd like to point out that, in game, St. Louis is know as a cruiser which can absorb large amounts of shellfire, even battleship shellfire that would put any of the other cruisers at tier III (and quite a few above that) into Davy Jones Locker.   When I think about pitting that against four 8 inch guns with 650 mps velocity with painfully slow reload times, I don't think that the St. Louis has a lot to worry about, in game context, well not any more than she would against any other Tier II cruiser. 

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Why not use the later WWI era refit where they replaced the original guns with 5"/51s?

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2 hours ago, BB3_Oregon_Steel said:

Granted.  However when you think of how easily the Olympia's 8 inch guns could deal with St. Louis's protection, I'd like to point out that, in game, St. Louis is know as a cruiser which can absorb large amounts of shellfire, even battleship shellfire that would put any of the other cruisers at tier III (and quite a few above that) into Davy Jones Locker.   When I think about pitting that against four 8 inch guns with 650 mps velocity with painfully slow reload times, I don't think that the St. Louis has a lot to worry about, in game context, well not any more than she would against any other Tier II cruiser. 

I think the St. Louis has always been a bit OP to be honest.

if I remember right they nerfed it’s chance of fire a while back, but it’s always seemed too durable.

 

but back to real life I think that a St. Louis vs Olympia fight 1v1 would end more or less in a draw. But those 5”/51s from the refit would definitely even things out a little bit

Edited by JohnPJones

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25 minutes ago, Psycodiver said:

Why not use the later WWI era refit where they replaced the original guns with 5"/51s?

That would be the hull upgrade lol

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7 hours ago, JohnPJones said:

That would be the hull upgrade lol

True but it would be the only way to balance her because her 8"guns suck

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either way, she would make a most welcome addition to my fleet, so short answer Yes.

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5 hours ago, Psycodiver said:

True but it would be the only way to balance her because her 8"guns suck

at T4 she could find herself facing off against T7s if i'm not mistaken every tech tree other than the english line has 8" guns by 7 so she wouldn't be mopping the floor in every game, and her low speed as a cruiser would help balance her out.

or maybe T3 any way, i completely forgot the US cruiser line is splitting, and with the pepsi cola moving down to T3 or  so then it shouldn't be too OP. like i said though i think she should be a premium likely an event ship rather than one you pay for. 

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Just now, JohnPJones said:

at T4 she could find herself facing off against T7s if i'm not mistaken every tech tree other than the english line has 8" guns by 7 so she wouldn't be mopping the floor in every game, and her low speed as a cruiser would help balance her out.

or maybe T3 any way, i completely forgot the US cruiser line is splitting, and with the pepsi cola moving down to T3 or  so then it shouldn't be too OP. like i said though i think she should be a premium likely an event ship rather than one you pay for. 

Tier 4 only sees tier 5 max, she's a tier 2 or 3 at max, her 8" guns would be derpy and have poor penetration like most pre-WWI naval guns.

 

I tested my Aoba's 8" guns against a St. Louis and found I couldn't reliably citadel it past 9km because of the mix of belt and slopping deck armor. I might have to retest it now with the New Orleans though

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Division an Olympia together with a Mikasa, and you'll create such a struggle.

Olympia facing  a German V-170 with bow-mounted torpedoes...   bye-bye Olympia.... even if all the DD torpedo mounts are shot out !!

Olympia usefulness is about the same level as the Mikasa.  Facing Tier 3 is really pushing it.  I'm thinking 'Emden-like' levels of play.

In fact, a battle between Emden vs.Olympia might seem more like a battle between Atlanta vs. Aoba.

 

Olympia.jpg

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Only glanced at the armament layouts on the Wiki. But the Olympia strikes me as a T3-4 Graf Spee. 

2x MB, large number of Secondaries. 

Depending on the Tier it holds it could be classified as a Cruiser like the Spee, or possibly a BB like Scharnhorst. It would fall to armour scheme and how to balance the 8" guns. 

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14 hours ago, Psycodiver said:

Why not use the later WWI era refit where they replaced the original guns with 5"/51s?

You could and that would make her more competitive at Tier III but she would still be at best a T3 - or a T2+ in that configuration.  Besides, I think most players would be interested in her with her original outfit of 8 inch/35's and 5 inch secondaries.  She'd be very derpy but she could probably hold her own at T2. 

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26 minutes ago, Ivlerlin said:

Only glanced at the armament layouts on the Wiki. But the Olympia strikes me as a T3-4 Graf Spee. 

2x MB, large number of Secondaries. 

Depending on the Tier it holds it could be classified as a Cruiser like the Spee, or possibly a BB like Scharnhorst. It would fall to armour scheme and how to balance the 8" guns. 

You need more than a glance. 

Yes she has 8 inch guns and 5 inch secondaries but looks can be deceiving as I've described above. 

To summarize, her 8 inch/35 caliber guns are short barreled which reduces their overall muzzle velocity, accuracy and range, she used brown or semi-smokeless powder instead of the later much more powerful cordite based smokeless powder (which all other WOWS ships use) which reduces the muzzle velocity of her 8 inch guns to an arthritic 650 meters per second which saps her shells of the energy you might otherwise believe they would have (which greatly reduces their ability to penetrate armor).  This also will give her shells a high floaty arc which will make it more like firing a mortar at distant moving targets making it extremely hard to hit targets at long to moderate range and with her shells only leveling out at very close range. She's a protected cruiser so she only has her armored deck to protect her and that deck uses Harvey Steel rather than Krupp steel which makes it only 75% as effective inch for inch as the armor on almost all current WOWS vessels. Her secondary 5 inch guns are also US designed (which in the early 1890's was not a good thing) and are of the "breach loading" rather than "quick firing" type which significantly reduces their rate of fire.

She really is not in any way shape or form a battleship nor is she anything like the Spee.  What she would be is a oldest vessel in WOWS (by about half a decade) which hails from a previous period of naval architecture and technology, a period which saw enormous technological changes during the 1890's.  She really could only be competitive with vessels from Tier II or Tier I in her original design, despite what a cursory glance at her statistics might otherwise indicate. 

Edited by BB3_Oregon_Steel

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With her ww1 5"/51 battery?  Sure.  With her 1898 8"/35 battery?  Hell no.

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Alright just did a test again, my New Orleans can still easily citadel a St.Luis up to 10.8km, but the Myoko starts to become unreliable after 9km, theres about 30-40mm of penetration difference between the 2 ships 8" AP at that range, granted the NO has better autobounce angles though. The St. Louis has 104mm of belt armor with 76mm of slop armor behind that

 

Now to sink (pun intended) the 8"/35 deal, I took the Mikasa out, a similar era ship. I couldn't even citadel a St. Louis at 2km with its guns, Whys that? Well at that point in history they used contact fuses not delay fuses, that didn't come till near the end of WWI. The Mikasa guns couldn't do it, then the Olympia with its worse 8" guns are going to be hardly a issue. The Mikasa's guns can only penetrate 173mm of armor at 5km (my 2 modern cruisers can penetrate more at more than twice the distance) and only 99mm at 10km and 80mm at max range plus with the short fuse means they detonate nearly instantly.

 

I pose this, either use the WW1 refit and place her at tier 3 or run with her 8" guns acting as secondaries (with 10km range of course) and her secondaries become player controlled and place her at tier 2. Lets face it the 8" shells with be slow even at sub 10km ranges plus inaccurate because 4 guns in 2 turrets, it may not be Mikasa bad but it could be nearly as bad

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