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Kelorn

[Theory] Why the Problem with CV's is Damage Control Party

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Theories abound regarding Carriers, their gameplay in World of Warships, and how to revamp them to better fit the game. But last night, I finally reached a conclusion that I've been slowing moving toward for some time:

The Problem with CV's is the nature of the way Damage Control Party works.

What do I mean by that? Well first, DCP instantly repairs all fires, flooding, and disabled modules on your ship. It's a complete "get out of jail free" card that you can play, mitigating everything happening to your ship at once. The downside is that once used, there's a cooldown before it can be used again (except for a certain Russian Battleship). An easy thing to use, it's one of the hardest aspects of the game to use properly. Knowing when you NEED to use DCP and when you should let the fires burn is one of the things that differentiates a good player from a not-so-good player.

Why is this a problem?

Because DCP removes the guarantee of Damage over Time (DoT), Carriers are forced to rely on alpha-damage to affect the game

This has lead us to the point where we have two "Alpha-damage" classes:

  • Battleships which must risk themselves to deal damage

  • Carriers who can alpha strike while only risking their planes

Proposal

Since calling out a problem without a solution is a total [edited] move, I waited to post about this until I had a satisfactory recommendation.

DCP should only be able to heal one thing at a time

Solution 1 (Repairs take time):

  • When you hit the button for DCP, it opens a radial menu (similar to the radial menu for F-commands), allowing you to choose which disability to heal

  • Once chosen, the DCP "works" on that repair, taking time to complete

  • When repair is complete, another repair can be started immediately with no cooldown

Solution 2 (Limited Spare Parts):

  • When you hit the button for DCP, it opens a radial menu (similar to the radial menu for F-commands), allowing you to choose which disability to heal

  • Once chosen, a charge of DCP is applied to that disability

  • A relatively short cooldown (15-30 seconds) period applies

  • Limited charges of DCP per game (10?)

Factors usable for Balancing:

  • Different repairs could take differing amounts of time for Solution 1 (eg. Fires repair faster than flooding)

  • Different ships get different charges of DCP for Solution 2, depending on ship size to reflect crew availability (eg. battleships have more damage control capability than a destroyer)

  • Superintendent gives two (3?) extra DCP charges for Solution 2

  • New Captain skill that allows two repairs to be initiated simultaneously for Solution 1 or 2

  • New Captain skills that improve one repair time over the others (eg. faster flooding repair, but longer fire/module repair) for Solution 1

  • Number of categories of Repair limited to Fire, Flooding, and Modules (or more?)

  • Allow Fire and flooding to stack, while repair only heals one fire or flooding

  • Re-balance Fire/flooding damage

Conclusion

By revamping the DCP, this allows the game to shift Carriers from an "Alpha-damage" class to a class that purely does Damage over time. Initial Alpha damage from HE bombs and torpedoes can be reduced (or possibly eliminated) in favor of the guarantee of applying Fire or flooding. For those of you who play MMORPGs, this is similar to the Necromancer in Everquest or the Warlock in World of Warcraft.

AP bombs could still exist in the game to give carriers some alpha damage, but mixing alpha and DOT damage becomes less desirable, as it makes it easier for the targets to heal.

In regards to other ship types:

  • Battleships doing damage would be largely unaffected by this, as they (mostly) rely on AP damage

  • Cruisers would see some increase in their ability to set fires and keep them burning, but may be affected by the rebalance in how much damage fires do and how many can be set. Their HE alpha damage might have to be nudged up to keep damage in line.

  • Destroyers would also be affected, as their torpedoes could go one of two ways, High alpha with low flood chance, or low alpha to rely on the same DOT damage as carriers. In terms of interesting gameplay, I think differentiating Carrier and destroyer damage would be prefereable by giving DD's High alpha damage torps with a low (25%?) base flood chance.

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I think it should also be noted that Destroyers also depend on DoT for a portion of their damage, probably second behind CV, and it can certainly be tough to do. If you manage to chain some fires and a flood watch that damage tick though!

Maybe I'm wrong but I've always imagined DD as just one big DoT.

 

Cool thoughts, thanks for sharing.

 

I'm also kinda nuts and think all torps should induce flooding, but remove some alpha in exchange. The spikey nature of torps can be a fickle one.

Edited by Canadatron

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It's an interesting idea, basically changing the salt mine CVs would farm. Of course if CVs are all DoT, then 100% of their damage can be undone with repair party. So either there would need to be some sort of AA adjustments, so that no ship is untouchable, or planes would need to be made much faster, so that attacking anything with a heal doesn't become an exercise in futility.

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Just now, cometguy said:

It's an interesting idea, basically changing the salt mine CVs would farm. Of course if CVs are all DoT, then 100% of their damage can be undone with repair party. So either there would need to be some sort of AA adjustments, so that no ship is untouchable, or planes would need to be made much faster, so that attacking anything with a heal doesn't become an exercise in futility.

Agreed! I think there's some aspects to this that need help, I just was trying to find a way to break the current conceptions

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TBH, the October revolution having a limited DCP count, I think was a good Idea. That being said, giving 10 is way to generous. How often do people use DCP in a match to begin with? Take that number then -1 off the average.

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5 minutes ago, Kelorn said:

Agreed! I think there's some aspects to this that need help, I just was trying to find a way to break the current conceptions

Another very positive aspect of this would be that it would discourage a CV from sending all of their bombers at one target at once, since there's a limit to the number of fires/floods a target can have. And that would reduce/eliminate the need for the strafe mechanic.

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14 minutes ago, Cpt_Cupcake said:

TBH, the October revolution having a limited DCP count, I think was a good Idea. That being said, giving 10 is way to generous. How often do people use DCP in a match to begin with? Take that number then -1 off the average.

10  may be way too high, i agree, but remember that you're no longer repairing everything in one button. So if you have 3 fires and 2 floods on your ship now, then 1 DCP heals it all. In this case it would take 5

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This is interesting but still side steps the issue: Alpha damage is too high in this game. On all parts. Everyone dies *way* to fast, be it from DoT's or Alphas. And CV's simply need lots of fast reloading, 'weak' unlimited planes. If DD's get unlimited torps, BB's get unlimited ammo, why do CV's have limited planes. Well for balance of course, but that's all soft stats (AA might be the softest of the soft stats) and should be tweaked accordingly.

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Interesting idea, I would be curious to see how this would come to work ingame, seeing as DCP is such a core component of the game I doubt you could perform a change like this without drastically changing gameplay, which could either be good or bad, but would certainly be seen as a limiting factor to implementation.

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AP dive bombers still delete German BBs and Des Moines.  That has little to do with DoT and everything to do with Alpha. 

That said, any effort such as this to help provide new perspective to the CV question should not be ignored as a new perspective can and will generate fresh ideas. +1 and thanks for posting.

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@_RC1138

BB's get unlimited ammo, because in a 20min game, you couldn't fire the full compliment of rounds anyway even if you were to hold down LMB for the whole 20min, given a ~30sec reload and 75 to 120 rounds of storage per main gun.

 

on the other hand HE rounds were generally in relatively short supply vs. AP on BB's, unless the it was going out to explicitly do shore bombardment.

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You know, that one guy on the team who actually has the balls to push cap on GK, who gets three fires and a flooding going - that guy is going to love the radial menu, I know it!  :cap_win:

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1 minute ago, b101uk said:

@_RC1138

BB's get unlimited ammo, because in a 20min game, you couldn't fire the full compliment of rounds anyway even if you were to hold down LMB for the whole 20min, given a ~30sec reload and 75 to 120 rounds of storage per main gun.

 

on the other hand HE rounds were generally in relatively short supply vs. AP on BB's, unless the it was going out to explicitly do shore bombardment.

Yes, but real life doesn't really need to apply. In real life, the Atlanta was an amazing AA platform that could average shooting down about 1 plane per minute. That would be way too slow for the game.

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3 minutes ago, cometguy said:

Yes, but real life doesn't really need to apply. In real life, the Atlanta was an amazing AA platform that could average shooting down about 1 plane per minute. That would be way too slow for the game.

That's my point, AA is a soft stat and can be tweaked as needed. Give CV's lots of lots of Weak planes, that individually do little damage, but an overwhelming concerted attack can rack up serious damage. Think of it like the Lvl 1 planes in the current operation. No 1 plane is that dangerous, but that wave of 4, 8? (I think it's 8) plane squads of TB's can, if you don't keep a weather eye on them, do some serious damage fast. CV's should be similar with planes that as a single group are easy to kill, but swarms cause real problems. And likewise they should have UNLIMITED amounts of these planes on a reasonably fast respawn timer. Then you can fix our messed up balance system: where DD's are forced into countering BB's (which doesn't work well and makes no sense anyway). Then CV's can with their swarms beat up on lone, slow or stopped, hiding BB's; DD's fast and nimble with DP guns can make short work of even large squads of planes while being too difficult to damage (and stealthy/fast enough to slip past and carrier snipe).

You fix the CV/DD dynamic, you fix the whole game. Cause you trace most problems back to Alpha damage, and how it's applied, much of the problem comes into play with BB vs. DD combat; too strong Alpha on *both* sides, and everyone else caught in the middle. But you make it so that DD's are the CV counter, which makes FAR more sense, then you get a BB>CA>DD>CV>BB balance that is actually BALANCED and makes logical sense.

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1 hour ago, Kelorn said:

Theories abound regarding Carriers, their gameplay in World of Warships, and how to revamp them to better fit the game. But last night, I finally reached a conclusion that I've been slowing moving toward for some time:

The Problem with CV's is the nature of the way Damage Control Party works.

What do I mean by that? Well first, DCP instantly repairs all fires, flooding, and disabled modules on your ship. It's a complete "get out of jail free" card that you can play, mitigating everything happening to your ship at once. The downside is that once used, there's a cooldown before it can be used again (except for a certain Russian Battleship). An easy thing to use, it's one of the hardest aspects of the game to use properly. Knowing when you NEED to use DCP and when you should let the fires burn is one of the things that differentiates a good player from a not-so-good player.

Why is this a problem?

Because DCP removes the guarantee of Damage over Time (DoT), Carriers are forced to rely on alpha-damage to affect the game

This has lead us to the point where we have two "Alpha-damage" classes:

  • Battleships which must risk themselves to deal damage

  • Carriers who can alpha strike while only risking their planes

Proposal

Since calling out a problem without a solution is a total [edited] move, I waited to post about this until I had a satisfactory recommendation.

DCP should only be able to heal one thing at a time

Solution 1 (Repairs take time):

  • When you hit the button for DCP, it opens a radial menu (similar to the radial menu for F-commands), allowing you to choose which disability to heal

  • Once chosen, the DCP "works" on that repair, taking time to complete

  • When repair is complete, another repair can be started immediately with no cooldown

Solution 2 (Limited Spare Parts):

  • When you hit the button for DCP, it opens a radial menu (similar to the radial menu for F-commands), allowing you to choose which disability to heal

  • Once chosen, a charge of DCP is applied to that disability

  • A relatively short cooldown (15-30 seconds) period applies

  • Limited charges of DCP per game (10?)

Factors usable for Balancing:

  • Different repairs could take differing amounts of time for Solution 1 (eg. Fires repair faster than flooding)

  • Different ships get different charges of DCP for Solution 2, depending on ship size to reflect crew availability (eg. battleships have more damage control capability than a destroyer)

  • Superintendent gives two (3?) extra DCP charges for Solution 2

  • New Captain skill that allows two repairs to be initiated simultaneously for Solution 1 or 2

  • New Captain skills that improve one repair time over the others (eg. faster flooding repair, but longer fire/module repair) for Solution 1

  • Number of categories of Repair limited to Fire, Flooding, and Modules (or more?)

  • Allow Fire and flooding to stack, while repair only heals one fire or flooding

  • Re-balance Fire/flooding damage

Conclusion

By revamping the DCP, this allows the game to shift Carriers from an "Alpha-damage" class to a class that purely does Damage over time. Initial Alpha damage from HE bombs and torpedoes can be reduced (or possibly eliminated) in favor of the guarantee of applying Fire or flooding. For those of you who play MMORPGs, this is similar to the Necromancer in Everquest or the Warlock in World of Warcraft.

AP bombs could still exist in the game to give carriers some alpha damage, but mixing alpha and DOT damage becomes less desirable, as it makes it easier for the targets to heal.

In regards to other ship types:

  • Battleships doing damage would be largely unaffected by this, as they (mostly) rely on AP damage

  • Cruisers would see some increase in their ability to set fires and keep them burning, but may be affected by the rebalance in how much damage fires do and how many can be set. Their HE alpha damage might have to be nudged up to keep damage in line.

  • Destroyers would also be affected, as their torpedoes could go one of two ways, High alpha with low flood chance, or low alpha to rely on the same DOT damage as carriers. In terms of interesting gameplay, I think differentiating Carrier and destroyer damage would be prefereable by giving DD's High alpha damage torps with a low (25%?) base flood chance.

 

Interesting ideas. Curious to see how people will hash this out. I do think it would revamp the whole game. 

 

I wonder is some of it could be tested piecemeal to see what it does.

 

3 minutes ago, _RC1138 said:

That's my point, AA is a soft stat and can be tweaked as needed. Give CV's lots of lots of Weak planes, that individually do little damage, but an overwhelming concerted attack can rack up serious damage. Think of it like the Lvl 1 planes in the current operation. No 1 plane is that dangerous, but that wave of 4, 8? (I think it's 8) plane squads of TB's can, if you don't keep a weather eye on them, do some serious damage fast. CV's should be similar with planes that as a single group are easy to kill, but swarms cause real problems. And likewise they should have UNLIMITED amounts of these planes on a reasonably fast respawn timer. Then you can fix our messed up balance system: where DD's are forced into countering BB's (which doesn't work well and makes no sense anyway). Then CV's can with their swarms beat up on lone, slow or stopped, hiding BB's; DD's fast and nimble with DP guns can make short work of even large squads of planes while being too difficult to damage (and stealthy/fast enough to slip past and carrier snipe).

You fix the CV/DD dynamic, you fix the whole game. Cause you trace most problems back to Alpha damage, and how it's applied, much of the problem comes into play with BB vs. DD combat; too strong Alpha on *both* sides, and everyone else caught in the middle. But you make it so that DD's are the CV counter, which makes FAR more sense, then you get a BB>CA>DD>CV>BB balance that is actually BALANCED and makes logical sense.

 

I don't think planes should be unlimited, but having more of them would work.

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14 minutes ago, cometguy said:

Yes, but real life doesn't really need to apply. In real life, the Atlanta was an amazing AA platform that could average shooting down about 1 plane per minute. That would be way too slow for the game.

 

yes but my point was, BB's dependent on age/size carried somewhere in the region of 75 to 120 shells per gun at the lower end of the scale, in a 20min game with a 30sec reload and even if you held down the LMB for the full 20mins, each gun would only deplete 40 shells each (2 shells per 1min per main gun), or only 60 shells with a 20sec reload (3 shells per 1min per main gun), so you may as well have unlimited numbers given even if you used real values you couldn't use them all in 20mins.

 

on the other hand HE was carried in the main in small number, sometimes as low as not carried at all for the main guns, others carried just 5 to 10 per gun unless explicitly going out to do shore bombardment, and there would be some sense to limiting the number of HE rounds. 

Edited by b101uk

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1 hour ago, Canadatron said:

I think it should also be noted that Destroyers also depend on DoT for a portion of their damage, probably second behind CV, and it can certainly be tough to do. If you manage to chain some fires and a flood watch that damage tick though!

Maybe I'm wrong but I've always imagined DD as just one big DoT.

 

Cool thoughts, thanks for sharing.

 

I'm also kinda nuts and think all torps should induce flooding, but remove some alpha in exchange. The spikey nature of torps can be a fickle one.

The gunboat DD's definitely do as they need the fires as they have trouble penetrating armor even with IFHE.

 

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5 minutes ago, _RC1138 said:

That's my point, AA is a soft stat and can be tweaked as needed. Give CV's lots of lots of Weak planes, that individually do little damage, but an overwhelming concerted attack can rack up serious damage. Think of it like the Lvl 1 planes in the current operation. No 1 plane is that dangerous, but that wave of 4, 8? (I think it's 8) plane squads of TB's can, if you don't keep a weather eye on them, do some serious damage fast. CV's should be similar with planes that as a single group are easy to kill, but swarms cause real problems. And likewise they should have UNLIMITED amounts of these planes on a reasonably fast respawn timer. Then you can fix our messed up balance system: where DD's are forced into countering BB's (which doesn't work well and makes no sense anyway). Then CV's can with their swarms beat up on lone, slow or stopped, hiding BB's; DD's fast and nimble with DP guns can make short work of even large squads of planes while being too difficult to damage (and stealthy/fast enough to slip past and carrier snipe).

You fix the CV/DD dynamic, you fix the whole game. Cause you trace most problems back to Alpha damage, and how it's applied, much of the problem comes into play with BB vs. DD combat; too strong Alpha on *both* sides, and everyone else caught in the middle. But you make it so that DD's are the CV counter, which makes FAR more sense, then you get a BB>CA>DD>CV>BB balance that is actually BALANCED and makes logical sense.

I've actually wondered why it doesnt work this way.
I could only guess it was tested at some point and discarded?

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1 minute ago, Kizarvexis said:

I don't think planes should be unlimited, but having more of them would work.

I think this is an excellent idea.  I play Saipan and Kaga, and boy let me tell you, these poor ships sure could use some extra planes.  This is how I feel when I play them:

 

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35 minutes ago, _RC1138 said:

This is interesting but still side steps the issue: Alpha damage is too high in this game. On all parts. Everyone dies *way* to fast, be it from DoT's or Alphas. And CV's simply need lots of fast reloading, 'weak' unlimited planes. If DD's get unlimited torps, BB's get unlimited ammo, why do CV's have limited planes. Well for balance of course, but that's all soft stats (AA might be the softest of the soft stats) and should be tweaked accordingly.

 

Whilst given my past record it's probably going to take me a couple of month to finish i'm working on a big post examining CV's (you can thank ichase for getting me started on this one), and your thought accords well with my own, though perhaps for different reasons. WOuld you have any issues when i'm done with em sending you an advance copy to go over?

 

18 minutes ago, cometguy said:

Yes, but real life doesn't really need to apply. In real life, the Atlanta was an amazing AA platform that could average shooting down about 1 plane per minute. That would be way too slow for the game.

 

More like 1 every 3 minutes, i believe proximity fuzing made the average number of rounds to get a kill with 5" around 1,000, down from 5,000 previously. Atlanta fies a maximum of 354 rpm at full unload.

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2 minutes ago, Kizarvexis said:

I don't think planes should be unlimited, but having more of them would work.

Remember, I'm thinking unlimited, but weak, planes. Not quite as weak as the LvL 1 planes in the Current French Gold Operation, but on that order of magnitude. They should be weak enough that even an IJN DD, not the Akizuki, can down half a squad before they get off their ordinance, and make a decent dent in the remaining as they leave. A USN CA should be all but immune to the most concerted attacks. The flip side is that it's unrelenting as the CV gets unlimited reloads and even destroyed squads dont take long, lets say 30 seconds-ish to reload. Then you can have every CV get 3 Torp squads *but* without careful planning and control (they are supposed to be soft-RTS games right) they'll be lucky if they get off even 1 total spread.

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1 minute ago, CaptainKaitoGhost said:

Can't read your post because of the black text.

There's something up with the dark text client, try the light text one?

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CVs do just fine with DoT when they DB me for 2 fires and then circle me with TBs do cross drop once the fires are out. They can pick and choose in ways nobody else gets to. 

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1 minute ago, _RC1138 said:

Remember, I'm thinking unlimited, but weak, planes. Not quite as weak as the LvL 1 planes in the Current French Gold Operation, but on that order of magnitude. They should be weak enough that even an IJN DD, not the Akizuki, can down half a squad before they get off their ordinance, and make a decent dent in the remaining as they leave. A USN CA should be all but immune to the most concerted attacks. The flip side is that it's unrelenting as the CV gets unlimited reloads and even destroyed squads dont take long, lets say 30 seconds-ish to reload. Then you can have every CV get 3 Torp squads *but* without careful planning and control (they are supposed to be soft-RTS games right) they'll be lucky if they get off even 1 total spread.

One the issues of unlimited planes I see,  (you can look at how battlestations: pacific set up for how that turned out) is that you'll go to a corner to have the distance between you and your enemy and spam planes. You'll leave them over the target for them to get shoot down, thus saving yourself the lengthy turn-around time. And if you have weak planes, overlapping AA auras make you a non-factor. The biggest change needs to be how aircraft HP and AA are calculated. If you check my activity, you can find a post I've done on it in the past.

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