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Ulthwey

Please, for the love of god, give tier 9/X French 100mm secondaries 1/4 HE pen!!!

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Heavy cruisers in this game have 27mm bows.

  • French 152 mm/55 Mle 1936  = pens 25mm (33mm w/ IFHE)
  • French 100 mm/45 Mle 1933 = pens 17mm (22mm w/ IFHE)

Tier 8-X French BB have the theoretical capacity to be very solid secondary specced boats. The one thing they lack, and the one and only thing preventing people from speccing for secondaries, is armor pen for the 100 mm/45 Mle 1933 guns on the Gascogne, Alsace and Republique. These ships are literally a mere inch away from being fun to play. WG is sitting on a gold mine and for reasons that are beyond me, they chose not to take advantage of it.

French tier 8-X BBs already have solid secondary armaments, why not give them that extra push in a form of 1/4 HE pen for the 100 mm/45 Mle 1933 secondaries to give them the ability to pen 27mm bows (with IFHE). Ships like Alsace and Republique will obtain a new role, and people will actually look forward to grinding them out.

  • I understand that Gascogne (like Bismarck/Tirpitz) is tier 8 so technically it shouldn't have ALL of its secondaries benefit from IFHE, so for this reason perhaps Gascogne could have a different type of 100 mm/45 Mle 1933 secondary armament that does NOT benefit from IFHE. However, there is absolutely NO REASON not to give the 1/4 HE pen to the Alsace and Republique.

This is a small buff, that would fundamentally change the way many people play these ships. They would still have all their current weaknesses, including high citadels and vulnerability to HE. However it would give the French BBs a sense of purpose (something they are lacking right now). Their speed boost would actually become useful for a change, as people will begin utilizing it in order to close in/break away from secondary range. WG has the ability to make French ships fun to play, why not capitalize on it?

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Yep, 100mm secondaries are quite pathetic and the 152mm secondaries have terrible accuracy. 3495cd7dc6.jpg

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mmm, maybe, maybe not, with the right skill they become more accurate especially close-in in PvE.

 

e.g. using the repeatability of the new  Operation Hermes over >40 games:

Gascogne with an ~8.8km secondary range (i.e. Aiming Systems Modificaiton 1 is still used on the ship wile for captains skills, Advanced Firing Training is used to push out AA and secondary range and Manual Fire Control for Secondary Armament are used), the secondary armament will contribute 35000HP to 60000HP of additional damage including all fire damage* without IFHE or 1/4 penetration being used (* I exclusively fire AP with the mains).

 

even Lyon (tier VII) in Operation Hermes (captain used in Gascogne above is my Lyon captain) which has a shorter secondary range somewhere in the region of just over 6km (or just over ~7.5km if Secondary Guns Modification 2 is used) can get an extra 20000HP to 35000HP of additional damage without IFHE or 1/4 penetration (inc all fire damage, again I use AP in the mains exclusively).

 

in both cases the contribution of damage done HP your secondary's cause is related to the effectiveness of the rest of the team and your positioning to favour the secondary armament effectiveness without impinging on the overall mission by being out of place and not keeping up etc etc, so when the rest of your team is effective you will conversely cause a low amount of damage with your secondary's, while if they are a bit ineffectual or a couple have gone back to port early you will cause more HP damage with your secondary armament, as ships spend more time within your secondary range.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Ulthwey said:

Heavy cruisers in this game have 27mm bows.

  • French 152 mm/55 Mle 1936  = pens 25mm (33mm w/ IFHE)
  • French 100 mm/45 Mle 1933 = pens 17mm (22mm w/ IFHE)

Tier 8-X French BB have the theoretical capacity to be very solid secondary specced boats. The one thing they lack, and the one and only thing preventing people from speccing for secondaries, is armor pen for the 100 mm/45 Mle 1933 guns on the Gascogne, Alsace and Republique. These ships are literally a mere inch away from being fun to play. WG is sitting on a gold mine and for reasons that are beyond me, they chose not to take advantage of it.

French tier 8-X BBs already have solid secondary armaments, why not give them that extra push in a form of 1/4 HE pen for the 100 mm/45 Mle 1933 secondaries to give them the ability to pen 27mm bows (with IFHE). Ships like Alsace and Republique will obtain a new role, and people will actually look forward to grinding them out.

  • I understand that Gascogne (like Bismarck/Tirpitz) is tier 8 so technically it shouldn't have ALL of its secondaries benefit from IFHE, so for this reason perhaps Gascogne could have a different type of 100 mm/45 Mle 1933 secondary armament that does NOT benefit from IFHE. However, there is absolutely NO REASON not to give the 1/4 HE pen to the Alsace and Republique.

This is a small buff, that would fundamentally change the way many people play these ships. They would still have all their current weaknesses, including high citadels and vulnerability to HE. However it would give the French BBs a sense of purpose (something they are lacking right now). Their speed boost would actually become useful for a change, as people will begin utilizing it in order to close in/break away from secondary range. WG has the ability to make French ships fun to play, why not capitalize on it?

That's not the only thing. Eating 40k citadels trying to brawl probably has something to do with it...

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Wouldn't change Republique though, because she doesn't have 100 mm secondaries, she has the same 127 mm secondaries of montana. And the fire chance for those guns is very very good for a 127 mm gun.

 

However perhaps a useful buff would be improve the RoF on the 152 mm secondaries. So their in game rate of fire lower than they ought to be. 5 RPM was only when the guns where used as AA guns, when used in surface warfare, the guns could achieve a R0F of 6.5 RPM. So in their secondary mode they ought to have the 6.5 RPM.

Now one often forgotten quality of secondary guns is their arrangement. Richieleu has poor potential as a secondary boat because her gun placement is poor. her 152's all face the rear, in a ship with its main battery all forward. So to use the 152 mm guns, requires giving broadside. Plus there are only three twin 100 mm turrets per side, with a low muzzle velocity and small caliber means very floaty shells. So i doubt that 1/4 HE pen will make Richieleu a good secondary boat.

Alsace, this is a completely different story. Her secondary turret angles are very very good. She can easily bring all 9 of her 152 mm guns to bear. Contrast this to a german high tier BB which can only bring six 150 mm guns to bear on a side, this actually allows Alsace 152 mm guns to effectively throw more shells downrange than a german top tier BB. Now consider that the french 152's have a 12% fire chance to the german 150 mm's 8% fire chance. On top of this, Alsace brings 12 100 mm barrels to bear per side, each with a base RPM of 20. In contrast, german 105's have a base RPM of 7.5 and can only bring 8 barrels to bear. Both the 105's and the 100's have a base fire chance of 5%. So yeah, Alsace may not have the 1/4 pen of german secondaries, but she throws down 50% more shells downrange, so her secondaries are going to light a hell of a lot more fires. Another advantage of Alsace, is she can bring to bear 12 100 mm secondaries and 3 152 mm secondaries wile bow tanking. FDG bow tanking brings to bear 8 150 mm guns and 4 105 mm guns, with Alsace also having a main battery suited for bow tanking.

This trend continues with the T10's. GK has the 1/4th pen, but Republiques guns have vastly better fire chance. Hell republiques 127's have a better fire chance than GK's 150 mm guns. When angling, Republique brings 9 152 mm guns to bear and 8 127 mm guns to bear. If she bow tanks she brings 6 152 mm guns to bear and 12 127 mm guns to bear. This makes republique the only ship where her secondary battery performs better when bow tanking than when angling. Either way, Republique brings more guns to bear, with an overall greater number of shells thrown downrange, with vastly better fire chance than German BB's. So id say, 1/4 pen would be nice, but i doubt its necessary to make the T9 and 10 good secondary boats. But 1/4 pen wont make Richelieu a good secondary boat, as her gun arrangement is just too bad.

Edited by ryuukei8569

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Or maybe just do a secondary build like I did...

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1 hour ago, Chobittsu said:

Or maybe just do a secondary build like I did...

How much secondary range is adequate for these ships?

My commander on Alsace has AFT, and on Republique that means 12 km range max or 10 km range if I just take main battery mod. That's 10.8 or 9.45 km respectively on Alsace.

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1 minute ago, admiral_noone said:

How much secondary range is adequate for these ships?

My commander on Alsace has AFT, and on Republique that means 12 km range max or 10 km range if I just take main battery mod. That's 10.8 or 9.45 km respectively on Alsace.

 

From a practical PoV the stock rnage is adequate, anything  beyond 6km or so is more psychological and hoping for lucky fires than anything else:

 

@OP: Only if KM 105mm get the same treatment.

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2 minutes ago, admiral_noone said:

How much secondary range is adequate for these ships?

My commander on Alsace has AFT, and on Republique that means 12 km range max or 10 km range if I just take main battery mod. That's 10.8 or 9.45 km respectively on Alsace.

I find 12km more than enough to give most destroyers reason to keep away, especially since I build for accuracy

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I don't think secondary builds are meant to be super-impactful, yeah it can be a choice and make a difference but it's mostly there for show, for fun. We don't really need a point-and-click adventure game.

My problems with Alsace's secondaries are that -

  • Losing 6-10 mounts per game is pretty typical, the 100mm mounts seem to be made of paper with no armor or HP, plus they're nicely clustered right in the center of the aim point
  • Fire RNG can be pretty terrible at T10, my last 3 games I've summed up over 200 secondary hits without a fire. Shooting at T10's with 50% fire coefficient plus FP your 6% 102mm gun choice drops to effectively <3%, so one fire for 30 hits - if they hit an unburning section... even if they do, one fire isn't a big deal and damacon is a thing.

It's not that enjoyable if they all get spammed off by 2 broadsides of 8in HE, and I am simply amused by the paucity of damage/fires caused.

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1 minute ago, mofton said:

I don't think secondary builds are meant to be super-impactful, yeah it can be a choice and make a difference but it's mostly there for show, for fun. We don't really need a point-and-click adventure game.

My problems with Alsace's secondaries are that -

  • Losing 6-10 mounts per game is pretty typical, the 100mm mounts seem to be made of paper with no armor or HP, plus they're nicely clustered right in the center of the aim point
  • Fire RNG can be pretty terrible at T10, my last 3 games I've summed up over 200 secondary hits without a fire. Shooting at T10's with 50% fire coefficient plus FP your 6% 102mm gun choice drops to effectively <3%, so one fire for 30 hits - if they hit an unburning section... even if they do, one fire isn't a big deal and damacon is a thing.

It's not that enjoyable if they all get spammed off by 2 broadsides of 8in HE, and I am simply amused by the paucity of damage/fires caused.

 

The same could be said for most Secondary/AA builds. Japanese secondary guns get blown off if someone so much as looks at them funny, and for german ships, only the 150's are reasonably resistant to HE spam, the 105's all get blown off easily, especially with British BB HE spam. The only secondary guns i have seen that can withstand cruiser HE spam is montana's secondary guns, as those mountings are quite well armored. However they still get blown away by AP and BB HE Spam. Given that BB HE spam has become so much more prevalent now, the secondary and AA build value has deteriorated quite significantly.

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2 hours ago, ryuukei8569 said:

Wouldn't change Republique though, because she doesn't have 100 mm secondaries, she has the same 127 mm secondaries of montana. And the fire chance for those guns is very very good for a 127 mm gun.

 

However perhaps a useful buff would be improve the RoF on the 152 mm secondaries. So their in game rate of fire lower than they ought to be. 5 RPM was only when the guns where used as AA guns, when used in surface warfare, the guns could achieve a R0F of 6.5 RPM. So in their secondary mode they ought to have the 6.5 RPM.

Now one often forgotten quality of secondary guns is their arrangement. Richieleu has poor potential as a secondary boat because her gun placement is poor. her 152's all face the rear, in a ship with its main battery all forward. So to use the 152 mm guns, requires giving broadside. Plus there are only three twin 100 mm turrets per side, with a low muzzle velocity and small caliber means very floaty shells. So i doubt that 1/4 HE pen will make Richieleu a good secondary boat.

Alsace, this is a completely different story. Her secondary turret angles are very very good. She can easily bring all 9 of her 152 mm guns to bear. Contrast this to a german high tier BB which can only bring six 150 mm guns to bear on a side, this actually allows Alsace 152 mm guns to effectively throw more shells downrange than a german top tier BB. Now consider that the french 152's have a 12% fire chance to the german 150 mm's 8% fire chance. On top of this, Alsace brings 12 100 mm barrels to bear per side, each with a base RPM of 20. In contrast, german 105's have a base RPM of 7.5 and can only bring 8 barrels to bear. Both the 105's and the 100's have a base fire chance of 5%. So yeah, Alsace may not have the 1/4 pen of german secondaries, but she throws down 50% more shells downrange, so her secondaries are going to light a hell of a lot more fires. Another advantage of Alsace, is she can bring to bear 12 100 mm secondaries and 3 152 mm secondaries wile bow tanking. FDG bow tanking brings to bear 8 150 mm guns and 4 105 mm guns, with Alsace also having a main battery suited for bow tanking.

This trend continues with the T10's. GK has the 1/4th pen, but Republiques guns have vastly better fire chance. Hell republiques 127's have a better fire chance than GK's 150 mm guns. When angling, Republique brings 9 152 mm guns to bear and 8 127 mm guns to bear. If she bow tanks she brings 6 152 mm guns to bear and 12 127 mm guns to bear. This makes republique the only ship where her secondary battery performs better when bow tanking than when angling. Either way, Republique brings more guns to bear, with an overall greater number of shells thrown downrange, with vastly better fire chance than German BB's. So id say, 1/4 pen would be nice, but i doubt its necessary to make the T9 and 10 good secondary boats. But 1/4 pen wont make Richelieu a good secondary boat, as her gun arrangement is just too bad.

I was going to argue somewhere along these lines. We already have Yamato and half the German high-tier BB line as memetic in regards to their ridiculous secondary capabilities, and high HE penetration.

 

Alsace has a literal dozen 100mm guns to bear on each side and good-looking triple-gun secondary turrets for her three 152mm mounts, both reaching out to the respectable base range of 7.5km. Us Brits are still languishing at 5km all the way to Tier X, when not even DDs need get that close anymore.

Maybe one less BB tree using IFHE secondaries will be a good thing? Spec for fires instead, and those 100mms should have you have you belting various funk records of the 1970s.

Edited by TehParakitteh

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3 hours ago, ryuukei8569 said:

 

The same could be said for most Secondary/AA builds. Japanese secondary guns get blown off if someone so much as looks at them funny, and for german ships, only the 150's are reasonably resistant to HE spam, the 105's all get blown off easily, especially with British BB HE spam. The only secondary guns i have seen that can withstand cruiser HE spam is montana's secondary guns, as those mountings are quite well armored. However they still get blown away by AP and BB HE Spam. Given that BB HE spam has become so much more prevalent now, the secondary and AA build value has deteriorated quite significantly.

 

Speak for yourself, i don;t see my tirpitz 105's get blown off that often.

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I suggested the same thing for the 100mm guns of the Kii, due to their lackluster firepower. We're not asking for "show". I was under the impression that secondaries were actually meant to help battleships fight battles, not look pretty. Heck a few of their own videos in the beginning credits shows battleship secondaries wrecking a destroyer or two before said destroyers launch torpedoes, so why is this seemingly impossible for a battleship that has them?

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10 minutes ago, BrandonKF said:

Heck a few of their own videos in the beginning credits shows battleship secondaries wrecking a destroyer or two before said destroyers launch torpedoes, so why is this seemingly impossible for a battleship that has them?

Because apparently semi-decent secondaries are to be the exclusive property of the Germans and nobody else.

Secondaries in my opinion need an all-around buff and that goes for cruisers and all other types of ships that have them too.

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16 minutes ago, BrandonKF said:

I suggested the same thing for the 100mm guns of the Kii, due to their lackluster firepower. We're not asking for "show". I was under the impression that secondaries were actually meant to help battleships fight battles, not look pretty. Heck a few of their own videos in the beginning credits shows battleship secondaries wrecking a destroyer or two before said destroyers launch torpedoes, so why is this seemingly impossible for a battleship that has them?

 

 

TBH i'd prefer it if secondary HE pen was independent of calibre. Say 25mm T1-4, then 35mm T5+. No HE citting people and nobodies seconderies are usless.

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6 minutes ago, Lampshade_M1A2 said:

Because apparently semi-decent secondaries are to be the exclusive property of the Germans and nobody else.

Secondaries in my opinion need an all-around buff and that goes for cruisers and all other types of ships that have them too.

 

No offence but even KM secondaries outside of their 128mm aren't amazing since they nerfed the 105mm fire chance. They're just enough to make secondary specs viable.

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Just now, Carl said:

 

No offence but even KM secondaries outside of their 128mm aren't amazing since they nerfed the 105mm fire chance. They're just enough to make secondary specs viable.

I agree, so I said "semi-decent" instead of "decent". The actual utility of those builds doesn't live up to the hype. I just do it on my Fredrick because it looks cool.

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20 minutes ago, Lampshade_M1A2 said:

I agree, so I said "semi-decent" instead of "decent". The actual utility of those builds doesn't live up to the hype. I just do it on my Fredrick because it looks cool.

 

Ditto but for my tirpitz. Tio be fair under specific circumstances they're very effective, but getting to that 5km or less range is not trivial. A lot of players won't let you and in a tirp nothing at that kind of range lasts long anyway because torpedoes. #FirstKMDD,BestKMDD

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Don't change anything yet, the line is too new and more matches need to be played.

 

Be very careful about buffing these secondaries.  Here are some comparisons to FDG in the same tier.

4bbiGjD.jpg

Fire Chances?

FDG
105mm @ 6% fire chance
150mm @ 7% fire chance
Alsace
100mm @ 5% fire chance
152mm @ 12% fire chance

 

I have no problem landing shell hits with these, but then again, I use Manual Secondaries trait, which you kind of need with long range secondary BBs to actually hit things reliably at those distances.

 

Against BB threats, what I've found to be a recurring theme is this screenshot.

cPwEmxf.jpg

Extremely poor shell damage on BB targets but it can set fires pretty well.

 

German BBs used to have reliable secondaries damage AND good fire chance.  They lost the high fire chance bit for most parts.  French BBs are the opposite of that.  They're fire starters now.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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2 hours ago, BrandonKF said:

I suggested the same thing for the 100mm guns of the Kii, due to their lackluster firepower. We're not asking for "show". I was under the impression that secondaries were actually meant to help battleships fight battles, not look pretty. Heck a few of their own videos in the beginning credits shows battleship secondaries wrecking a destroyer or two before said destroyers launch torpedoes, so why is this seemingly impossible for a battleship that has them?

Secondaries need a buff across the board. Even BBs that are meant to have good and usable secondaries don't do much with them, they will do at most a salvo's worth of damage if you invest all of your captain skills and module slots into them on top of some measly fire damage if you put yourself at risk by driving close enough to use them. Secondaries should be accurate enough to scare off any lightly armored ship that comes into range instead of being an ignorable fireworks show that they are now. 

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Oh look, another "please buff my Battleships" thread... sorry, but this isn't needed. Just because you can't pen a cruiser at every conceivable angle doesn't mean you need a buff.

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8 minutes ago, FleetAdmiral_Assassin said:

Oh look, another "please buff my Battleships" thread... sorry, but this isn't needed. Just because you can't pen a cruiser at every conceivable angle doesn't mean you need a buff.

Oh look, another "anyone saying buff anything on Battleship is a Bbaby" guy. There's your opinion. Here's mine. Stuff it. You cannot pen a DESTROYER with a 100mm at tier 8, much less 9 and 10.

So your opinion is considered, and disregarded as worthless. Got it?

Edited by BrandonKF
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28 minutes ago, FleetAdmiral_Assassin said:

Oh look, another "please buff my Battleships" thread... sorry, but this isn't needed. Just because you can't pen a cruiser at every conceivable angle doesn't mean you need a buff.

You do know that buffing the 10cm guns for the French gives Casus Belli for the IJN getting the 10cm guns an upgrade too right? Akizuki and whatever ships after to finish that line aren't forced to take IFHE for the majority of targets, but given the option for increased penetration including vessels like Kii with the Type 98 secondaries.

 

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