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Japanese DD mainline require buffs?

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The Japanese DD mainline has nothing decent, especially in higher tiers. Guns are horrible, Detection is great, except Radar is basically in META now. Their Torps would be good, if not for the fact that YOU CAN LITERALLY SEE THEM FROM A MILE AWAY. People can just juke them very easily, it is just sad.
A few ideas I had in mind is probably increase the torp speed, or decrease detection, or a little bit of both. You might argue saying that it would make their torps too strong. First of all, their guns are just borderline horrible, so having amazing torps is probably okay. And second, if they are too "unfun" to play against. nerf the damage of the torps and buff the guns,

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Unfortunately, this has been discussed to death, and yes, the vast majority of the DD players are in agreement that the IJN DD line needs a serious buff.

Look at the forum archives for the discussion - the general consensus is that a modest decrease in the detection range of the torpedoes would be a good idea.

 

So far, WG has not expressed any interest in fixing the IJN DDs' issue. It appears that they're focused on producing new product rather than rebalancing old.

 

So don't hold your breath.

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1 hour ago, EAnybody said:

So far, WG has not expressed any interest in fixing the IJN DDs' issue. It appears that they're focused on producing new product rather than rebalancing old.

 

So don't hold your breath.

They just recently stated they are looking at buffing the shima. 

Edited by RipNuN2

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4 minutes ago, RipNuN2 said:

They just recently stated they are looking at buffing the shima. 

And I recently stated that I'm planning on dating Jennifer Lawrence when she breaks up with whomever she's dating now.

Whoop-de-do.  They did that awhile ago (August, IIRC) and it was so ridiculously inconsequential that the metrics for the Shima haven't changed one iota.

And it's not the Shima alone that needs help. It's the ENTIRE IJN line from T5 up.  Which hasn't had a buff of any kind that I can recall in over 2 years, only repeated sledgehammer nerfs.

Edited by EAnybody

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1 hour ago, EAnybody said:

Unfortunately, this has been discussed to death, and yes, the vast majority of the DD players are in agreement that the IJN DD line needs a serious buff.

Look at the forum archives for the discussion - the general consensus is that a modest decrease in the detection range of the torpedoes would be a good idea.

 

So far, WG has not expressed any interest in fixing the IJN DDs' issue. It appears that they're focused on producing new product rather than rebalancing old.

 

So don't hold your breath.

:Smile_great:

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You have limited resources to invest on new ideas and improvements to your products. Will you invest in:

  1. A day-one product that almost all your potential customers have already bought. Or
  2. An upcoming new product line 

It's a business and IJN DDs are the products of the yesteryear to WG. Notice the only new gimmick, TRB, was introduced when the line was split into two and WG needed something the "sell" the new boats?

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And it'd be such a simple fix all they have to do is fix the damn the torpedoes 

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Relatively new player...was interested in going down the Minekaze line (got the boat not too long ago). The more I'm reading in the forums the more I'm starting to believe I should have avoided the IJN BB line all together... ugh

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My perfect idea to make IJN DDs easier for more players to master is this:

1.  Restore the old HE alpha.  Maintain the current fire rate as this was what WG felt was too high on IJN DDs.  Yes this nerfs rate of fire, but the high alpha low DPM provided the IJN DDs their own identity to fighting other DDs through hit and run engagements to wear down enemy DDs in bursts while avoiding their higher sustained DPM.  Its not like many were claiming these guns were OP to start with.  An alternate, but IMO boring option to this is buffing turret rotation across the board 10% as I feel most people dont know how to fight in a DD with slow turrets.  That doesnt change the issue that you alpha is the same as gunboats hunting you however, and IMO it creates less differences in play style.

2.  The torps mid tier might need a minor adjustment.  Personally I think they are adequate, and the people here think if its not the best its automatically horrible.  Kagero, Yugumo, and Shima are good torp wise.  Please no DW torps.

3.  Hatsuharu should be a candidate for TRB.  She was able to reload at sea quickly anyways, and she would fit in well with Shira, Kagero, and Yugumo as they play the same.  Consider Mutsuki too.  Expand this new option of play.

4.  Look at across the board detection, excluding Akizuki.  IJN DDs should have spotting advantages on par with the next higher tier gun boats.  The two that come to mind are Akatsuki and Shimakaze.  Akatsuki is more painful running into Benson etc at T8 where Shira has little issues at that tier due to sharing the spotting range as a Benson.  I would say 5.8 to 6.0km for Akatsuki and 5.5 to 5.6km for Shima.

 

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27 minutes ago, Duke_McGiggles said:

Relatively new player...was interested in going down the Minekaze line (got the boat not too long ago). The more I'm reading in the forums the more I'm starting to believe I should have avoided the IJN BB line all together... ugh

Listening to the general consensus on the forums trashed my IJN DD stats.  That consensus was they can fight other DDs, contesting caps was almost guaranteed death etc.

The vast majority here think if a ship isnt first or second place for a particular stat its crap.  Its [edited].  Learn how to use the tool to its strengths and you will do alright in any DD in the game.

The issue I see is people play IJN DDs like US DDs, they dont use their guns nearly as often as they should.  Dont let the forum sway you.  There is a lot of interesting boats, and the smokeless TRB options are fun as hell.

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8 minutes ago, Destroyer_KuroshioKai said:

Listening to the general consensus on the forums trashed my IJN DD stats.  That consensus was they can fight other DDs, contesting caps was almost guaranteed death etc.

The vast majority here think if a ship isnt first or second place for a particular stat its crap.  Its [edited].  Learn how to use the tool to its strengths and you will do alright in any DD in the game.

The issue I see is people play IJN DDs like US DDs, they dont use their guns nearly as often as they should.  Dont let the forum sway you.  There is a lot of interesting boats, and the smokeless TRB options are fun as hell.

I'm sure there are endless forums for this, but can you explain to me the DD split in the IJN? I got the Minekaze thinking that line was the stronger torpedo line, but after looking into the other line, I'm starting to think that the Mutsuki-Shima is a stronger torpedo line than the minekaze. Seems these boats have faster fish, longer range and concealment. Granted, like I said still relatively new to the game and it's very possible I'm just not playing the Minekaze correctly. 

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[CRMSN]Cobraclutch 

I am so sick an tired about hearing how IJN DD's are nerfed into the ground. 

 

A 1.5 second difference in reaction time is not a nerf into the ground. 

 

Stop over exaggerating. 

Nerfed into the ground Shima which is middle of the pack. What does that make Gearing and Grozovoi absolutely useless? 

OebYCF1.jpg

 

Nerfed into the ground Yugumo, I guess thats why she is doing better then Fletcher huh? 

 

iNVkRBN.jpg

 

Okay so il give you this, Kagero is about at the same level as Benson  / Kiev "OH THE HORROR, SHES NERFED INTO THE GROUND"

*Without even mentioning Akazuki /s

oMUbfEl.jpg

Oh look whose that at last place at tier 7 with dog crap damage and winrate, its Akatsuki  MAHAN

X5Q2Lbq.jpg

Ok I will give you this one, Fubuki ain't doing too hot. But guess what! Shinonome is light years ahead of everyone else and Hats is pretty competitive! 

 

BUT WAIT, THEY ARE NERFED INTO THE GROUND! HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE?

iQRZwaD.jpg

 

That poor IJN DD named Nicholas at the bottom of the pack at tier 5.. Oh man she is so nerfed into the ground.. 

 

nPf37Zl.jpg

 

 
[VNES]l1nv5 

 

Let's look at my analysis which I have done on IJN torp thread.

 

Back to this graphs

5a2923238c454_CaptureYugFlet.thumb.PNG.5305113a8ec4d3e0e6adf4bedbd02668.PNG

Fletcher damage distribution does look like 2 overlapping bell curve of 2 distinct group of players will different skill level, one with predominant newbie, with average damage around 30k, the other one is more seasoned group with average damage about 45k. Yugumo curve on the other hand is pretty balance, which indicates much less newbies are playing the ship. This trend continues for pretty much every USN-IJN DD pair at different tiers these graphs are from tier 6-7-8

Mutsuki vs Faragut (Tier 6)

CaptureMutFara.thumb.PNG.d238d4701b6b7a50b669893de2c7ec36.PNG

Akatsuki vs Sims (Tier 7)

CaptureAkatsSims.thumb.PNG.913ba509d7f72a6fac68a5e403191f4b.PNG
Kagero vs Benson (Tier 8)

CaptureKagBen.thumb.PNG.e8e1eabc7fc6470094f426811e891a18.PNG

All USN DD statistics are skewed negatively due to the predominant population of Newbie players, hence that's how USN DDs have their stats so much underestimating the true performance of the ship while IJN DD while being popular, the stats is overestimating the true performance of the ship.

 

Clear Negative bias in USN DD performance, indicating LOTS of NOOBS playing the ships, unlike that of IJN DDs, balanced bell curve. You are basically comparing a more elite player pool in IJN DDs VS noob player pool in USN DDs

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45 minutes ago, Duke_McGiggles said:

I'm sure there are endless forums for this, but can you explain to me the DD split in the IJN? I got the Minekaze thinking that line was the stronger torpedo line, but after looking into the other line, I'm starting to think that the Mutsuki-Shima is a stronger torpedo line than the minekaze. Seems these boats have faster fish, longer range and concealment. Granted, like I said still relatively new to the game and it's very possible I'm just not playing the Minekaze correctly. 

Both are torp focused lines.  Akizuki is a beast unto itself, requires a completely different build than all of the other IJN DDs in both lines.  My Shima, on down to my Mutsuki captain fit well on the DDs under Akizuki.

The whole thing about one line being gun focused boils down to Akizuki which is a gun focused boat.  All other IJN DDs are torp boats.

 

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There are multiple ways to buff IJN DD main line because everything about them are bad. I'd love a HE Alpha buff as I am dealing with the bad detection torpedoes relatively well. You can buff the torps as well and if WG is too concerned about torpedoes being too hard to spot and dealing too high damage, they could give IJN DDs some gimmicks, like the ability to select different combination of speed and range of the torpedoes while in the battle instead of choosing the spread. You can then have the same torpedo detection  and yet IJN DD can select which speed/range is most suitable for different situations. This won't tilt the balance off because those torpedoes are basically what's already used in game. And what's even more elegant about this solution is that it's factually and historically correct. Due to the powerful drive system of long lance torpedoes, they are the only torpedoes that are able to change range/speed while still maintain a decent speed at exceptional range, unlike those of other nations, where range is short and speed is just enough.

20km DWT is good too, but maybe put them on consumables instead of putting them on the main slot. I feel camping BBs are deserved to be punished but you can't have that many undodgable torps flying around hitting random stuff.

A minor buff to IJN DD could be better health pool to reflect their true displacement (Shima while having the same or bigger displacement than Gearing only has Fletcher HP pool, Yugumo is even worse), better turning radius like that of the Loyang, better turret transverse/gun reload. 

The only issue that I think WG is afraid of is that IJN DD players, especially high tier, who are still playing IJN DD are relatively good players being bogged down by the ship. Once any minor buff happen to the ship line, you will see a sudden spike of damage and probably more complains from new BB players, which might eats into WG bottom line.

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32 minutes ago, l1nv5 said:

There are multiple ways to buff IJN DD main line because everything about them are bad. I'd love a HE Alpha buff as I am dealing with the bad detection torpedoes relatively well. You can buff the torps as well and if WG is too concerned about torpedoes being too hard to spot and dealing too high damage, they could give IJN DDs some gimmicks, like the ability to select different combination of speed and range of the torpedoes while in the battle instead of choosing the spread. You can then have the same torpedo detection  and yet IJN DD can select which speed/range is most suitable for different situations. This won't tilt the balance off because those torpedoes are basically what's already used in game. And what's even more elegant about this solution is that it's factually and historically correct. Due to the powerful drive system of long lance torpedoes, they are the only torpedoes that are able to change range/speed while still maintain a decent speed at exceptional range, unlike those of other nations, where range is short and speed is just enough.

20km DWT is good too, but maybe put them on consumables instead of putting them on the main slot. I feel camping BBs are deserved to be punished but you can't have that many undodgable torps flying around hitting random stuff.

A minor buff to IJN DD could be better health pool to reflect their true displacement (Shima while having the same or bigger displacement than Gearing only has Fletcher HP pool, Yugumo is even worse), better turning radius like that of the Loyang, better turret transverse/gun reload. 

The only issue that I think WG is afraid of is that IJN DD players, especially high tier, who are still playing IJN DD are relatively good players being bogged down by the ship. Once any minor buff happen to the ship line, you will see a sudden spike of damage and probably more complains from new BB players, which might eats into WG bottom line.

Heavy nerfs is exactly what causes the wider spreads between good players and average.  The harder a ship is nerfed the guys that stick it out and figure out how to make it work get scary good.  The nerf killed the weak, the rest got stronger.

At no point is this more visible than in CVs. 

Edited by Destroyer_KuroshioKai

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frankly   I've been running yugumo  and it has been a real challenge to carry a win in it.   I thought I was doing horrid in  last month since I started grinding again (ok, I am out of lines to grind)   and  except for lousy WR,  my stat isn't horrid (not good though compared to   other lines).       I am running  TRB and I may not be very  good about positioning and spamming torps instead but   I just havn't figured her out yet.     the issue is that I am depended on  shooting at  stupids and  that rare contribute to win.  I did kill 2 shima in one match, but   had tater team as well.    not easy ship 

 

Yūgumo 9 DD  Japan 10 30.00% 46,155 1,065 3.7 1.1 0.0 70% 39% 4% 1,304

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42 minutes ago, centarina said:

frankly   I've been running yugumo  and it has been a real challenge to carry a win in it.   I thought I was doing horrid in  last month since I started grinding again (ok, I am out of lines to grind)   and  except for lousy WR,  my stat isn't horrid (not good though compared to   other lines).       I am running  TRB and I may not be very  good about positioning and spamming torps instead but   I just havn't figured her out yet.     the issue is that I am depended on  shooting at  stupids and  that rare contribute to win.  I did kill 2 shima in one match, but   had tater team as well.    not easy ship 

 

Yūgumo 9 DD  Japan 10 30.00% 46,155 1,065 3.7 1.1 0.0 70% 39% 4% 1,304

Did you run Kagero with TRB?

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naw,  I never got to run the fun of kagero  lol       fubuki was my favorite though at t8.   :D     I do run it in shiratsuyu, and I do well in it.   but   yugumo just isn't my cup   . I do get complements, but unless I div up,  random team just isn't good for it. 

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The problem isn't the IJN DD stats and abilities.   The number one problem with driving IJN DD's or most any DD for that matter is the other players on the team who seem to have zero ability to recognize the concept of "tactical" movement to achieve victory conditions.  Make peeps change their handles to "Major Myopia" so at least the DD drivers on the team will know what they have to deal with, and what they wont have which is support.

When your on a team that has sense nuff to look at the map, figure out their approach routes and decisively swing into action IJN DD driving is a joy.  What you do matters.  But when they don't it makes you wish you had a "scuttle" button.   

I want a macro that says "don't sink me, I have team mate more worthy of my torpedo's then you!"

All you IJN DD driver have had to learn this, or shortly will be learning this.    And what most disturbing is I don't generally see this when I'm driving any other line other then IJN DD's.   Is it we're just to doggone good for our own good?  "the IJN DD doesn't need our help" etc?   

I don't know..

Our only strengths offensively are our torpedo's, and it's gotten harder and harder and HARDER to be more effective with them.  Our guns for the most part are ok.  Though, steep learning curve on when to use them and when NOT to use them.

Defensive strengths are our low detectability which can be totally and irrevocably negated by RADAR.  You get lit up by long duration radar your chance of getting out of detection range before you run out of destroyer is often time pretty much nill.  

There are a lot of other considerations depending on which DD your in.  Smoke, no smoke, commander skills etc.  And the learning curve has become a learning cliff.   I've seen a lot of skilled player hit tier VII IJN DD's and quit playing DD's because it IS difficult to do average, much less well until you learn the subtleties, and that kind of does require living long nuff to notice them.   

Possibly the only real redeeming feature of the line is when you can do well and utterly dominate a match, but it can be very boom and bust.

Some very minor un nerfage is in order.  Yes the veteran GOOD players will get a massive boost in their performance from even a little change for the better, but that's the same with ANY line of ships.   If you know what your about you will take better advantage of said changes then someone new to the game, line or tier.   The vast majority of players though are never going to hit that level of skill.  There isn't any real motivation for them to!  They're out there for fun and recreation and are perfectly happy with an average win rate.   For that matter, they may not even notice the details on how the ship the drive is impacting how well they do.

To borrow from a post else where... it's the difference between the guys on the company base ball team vs the worst of the major league base ball teams who are still going to be loads better then the guys on the company team on a BAD day!

It's them fun and recreation crowd though that do most of the supporting of the game.   I'm good nuff any more I don't need premium time to make money at the high tiers (though, it is nice!)  THEY are the ones spending most of the money on this game.  I thinks its well worth it to encourage them.

 

 

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Hey

In those stats mentioned; not but 1 German DD mentioned in all of those.  Maybe that's a line that also needs some work.  Like a fully functional smoke, slightly longer torp range and on-par concealment.  The Japanese do need help though, but I doubt Wargaming will do much about either line.  Just look where we are with the T61 for goodness sake.  The Japanese line is doomed for a buff IMHO.

 

Pete

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z46/52 are just fine.  they are great cap bullys.      weaker Torps, but tough to see.           

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1 hour ago, sasquatch_research said:

Hey

In those stats mentioned; not but 1 German DD mentioned in all of those.  Maybe that's a line that also needs some work.  Like a fully functional smoke, slightly longer torp range and on-par concealment.  The Japanese do need help though, but I doubt Wargaming will do much about either line.  Just look where we are with the T61 for goodness sake.  The Japanese line is doomed for a buff IMHO.

 

Pete

I see nothing wrong with the KM DDs, other than what's wrong with DDs as a whole (Radar, no spotting rewards, etc....)

Frankly, they're a better torp boat than the IJN ones, because:

  1. They have decent concealment on the torpedoes, giving modest but not excessive warning to their targets. Meaning good hit rate.
  2. They have sufficient power to make the better torpedo runs - that is, they're not super-fragile like IJN ones, so you can AFFORD to take risks to get the better torpedo setups to score the better hits, knowing that you have a good chance of bailing yourself out if things go sideways.
  3. Opponents are actually scared of their capabilities - a smoked up hydro-on KM DD is NOT something any other DD wants to tangle with, and even cruisers and BBs get nervous about all the damage that AP and HE-spitting smoke cloud emits.  Particularly because that smoke cloud has a pretty quick torp reload time, so there might be torps coming from it Real Soon Now.
  4. Pretty good concealment - inferior to IJN ones and US ones, but not by very much (i.e. 200m or less in most cases). Functionally, it's identical in use, except for minor edge cases.

Frankly, KM DDs are what IJN DDs SHOULD BE: a terror to bigger ships.  The fact that IJN DDs are still afforded a level of respect is an artifact of history, not an accurate reflection of their current capabilities.  Virtually no IJN DD (with the exception of the Fujin/Kamakaze OP premiums) has anywhere near the level of threat that an equivalent tier KM DD poses (ok, except for the T-22, which just blows).

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Already explained to you EAnybody the real issue. IJN DD's are a terror when a good player is in them. Anytime I take the Akatsuki or Shiratsuyu out, panties get wet. The main thing that would help IJN DD's and DD's as a whole is Aircraft Torpedo spotting being toned down and the removal of once they are spotted that they remain detected. That would overall help a lot of the average DD players.

The reason why you do better with high tier KM DD's is that they have a lower skill ceiling vs IJN DD's with the exception of Akizuki. Me and my buddy @MrDeaf well, we have lots of fun with our Shiratsuyu's.

 

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Yeah, to truly get good in IJN DDs, you have to be really careful with your positioning, relative to your teammates.

The issue is that you only have enough speed/utility to get to a flanking position or a cap, not both.

You have to look at what your team is doing to decide which option is better for you.

 

Having said that, Minekaze and Mutsuki could really stand to have better torps and guns.

As it stands, those two don't do anything well at all.

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the issue with IJN DD is that  they are really feast or famine  bote.    if you div up with good players,  they can do well as they can spot, but   tough solo as controlling  area isn't as good.  it is pretty good for epicenter  though .  

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