Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
You need to play a total of 5 battles to post in this section.
dseehafer

The only time the Kriegsmarine sent a fleet to do battle with another fleet

20 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

4,717
[HINON]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
8,856 posts
3,680 battles

Greetings all,

 

    Throughout the entirety of WWII Germany sent several fleets out for several reasons, on several occasions fleets of varying sizes were sent out to hunt convoys, Scharnhorst and Tirpitz where once part of an invasion fleet against the Island of Spitzbergen, and several fleets sailed to lay mine-fields, but only once was a large German fleet sent out with the express purpose of engaging another enemy fleet in combat. Which fleet was the German fleet to do battle with? The French? The British? No sir, it was the Russians!
   In September 1941 German army and air forces launched their initial assault on the port city of Leningrad where the Russian Baltic Fleet was stationed. The Germans feared that the Russian Baltic fleet might attempt to make a break for it and escape capture or destruction. The German battleship Tirpitz had only just completed her working up trials and had just been declared ready for combat when, on the 23rd of September, she received orders to sail from Swinemunde to join up with the newly formed Baltenflotte as its flagship. The German fleet sailed North-East to Foglofjord, arriving at 14:05 on the 24th, where they anchored and waited for the expected breakout of the Soviet Baltic Fleet. The Soviets never set sail, their fleet had been badly damaged the day before by German air raids while anchored in Kronstadt which saw their battleship Marat sunk. On the 25th it became clear that the Soviet fleet was in no condition to attempt a breakout and the German Baltenflotte was disbanded.

 

Still, It begs the question... What if the air attacks failed? What if the Russian Baltic fleet attempted a breakout? What if these two battle fleets engaged? The resulting clash would have been the largest battle between two battleship fleets of the war in Northern waters!

 

What do you think would have happened?

 

Order of Battle

 

German Fleet

Battleships (1)
Tirpitz

Heavy Cruisers (1)
Admiral Scheer

Light Cruisers (4)
Nurnberg
Leipzig
Koln
Emden

Destroyers (7)
Z25
Z26
Z27
T2
T5
T8
T11

 


Soviet Fleet

Battleships (2)
Marat
Oktyabrskaya Revolyutsiya

Light Cruisers (2)
Kirov
Maxim Gorky

Destroyers (24)
Gnevny
Gordyy
Grozyashchiy
Smetlivyi
Steregushchy
Serdityy
Silnyi
Stoikiy
Storozhevoy
Karl Marx
Volodarsky
Lenin
Yakov Sverdlov
Artoim
Engels
Kalinin
Burya
Sneg
Taifun
Tsiklon
Tucha
Vihr
Leningrad
Minsk
 

Note: Listed above are all the major surface vessels available to the Soviets in the Leningrad area. There is no guarantee that each and every one of these ships would have been sent out, especially considering that 7 of those destroyers are old WWI veterans.

 

The German Baltenflotte at sea

tirconstr5.jpg

Image result for tirpitz baltic fleet

Related image

Image result for tirpitz baltic fleet

 

 

Major Members of the Soviet Baltic Fleet

Related image

Image result for october revolution battleship

Image result for kirov cruiser

Image result for maxim gorky cruiser

 

Marat sunk by German bombers

Related image

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
434
[-BRS-]
Members
1,631 posts
13,602 battles

Well I'm sure the Germans would a concentrated fire and shredded them but depends on the weather up north and how close those Russian Destroyers could have got to the action

I'm guessing they weren't highly trained like most of the German ships were

It would depend a lot on the weather

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,717
[HINON]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
8,856 posts
3,680 battles
37 minutes ago, silverdahc said:

Well I'm sure the Germans would a concentrated fire and shredded them but depends on the weather up north and how close those Russian Destroyers could have got to the action

I'm guessing they weren't highly trained like most of the German ships were

It would depend a lot on the weather

 

Interesting that Germany is playing all of her cards for the hopeful destruction of this Russian fleet which, up until this point, had barely even bothered German naval operations in the Baltic. This is every single remaining light cruiser the Germans have, one of only two remaining Deutschland class heavy cruisers, and Germany's most powerful warship being put at risk for a relatively unimportant achievement (as nice as it would be for the Germans to wipe out the naval presence of the Russians in the Baltic... the Russian surface ships had done very little up until this point and would accomplish very little for the remainder of the war). If things go south for the Germans the only major surface ships not involved in this conflict would be Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, Eugen, Hipper, and Lutzow. After the staggering naval losses incurred upon them during the Invasion of Norway, the Kriegsmarine was really in no position to afford the loss of any more major surface ships. The Germans must have had a helluva lot of faith in Tirpitz and her entourage.

 

Also, the weather, as you can see by the pics I included of the German Baltneflotte at sea, was overcast but with calm seas. The lighting may have presented a problem if this were a WWI naval battles but by this time technology had advanced enough to make it a non-issue.. at least for the Germans, I don't know how good or bad Russian optics were at this time.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,099
[SYN]
[SYN]
Members
6,943 posts
7,518 battles

If the DD's were all present and able, the Soviets probably win, 24 DD's spitting torps at that few ships wouldn't have ended well for the KM, I feel, due to the lack of ships to counter them. Tirp would have wrecked the BB's, but unless she retreated with her escorts, she'd have gone down as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,717
[HINON]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
8,856 posts
3,680 battles
1 hour ago, Th3KrimzonD3mon said:

If the DD's were all present and able, the Soviets probably win, 24 DD's spitting torps at that few ships wouldn't have ended well for the KM, I feel, due to the lack of ships to counter them. Tirp would have wrecked the BB's, but unless she retreated with her escorts, she'd have gone down as well.

 

I don't know. 1st you have to assume that all 24 DDs are present, some may have been in refit, or lacked fuel to leave immediately, and would the 7 oldy-goldies even be worth sending along? Then you have to assume that the majority of the destroyers present are able to get in torpedo range amidst the especially heavy anti-surface secondary firepower of the Tirpitz and Scheer and having to put up with the 3 "budget light cruiser" Type 1936 destroyers who were built to out-duel Polish destroyer leaders as well as any of the light cruisers which would have been firing at them as well (realistically Tirpitz and Scheer should be able to handle the Russian battleships and cruisers), and finally you have to assume that a good number of the torps even hit the German ships nevermind enough to sink 'em.

 

Let's say 12 Russian destroyers are sent (leaving behind the 7 oldy-goldies and assumes that 4 more are unable to attend for varying reasons), assume half of them (6) are able to get in range and launch torpedoes, that's approx 48 torpedoes in the water, assume 1 torp hits per two spreads (seems to be about the norm for destroyers launching torps at full-health BBs during WWII in Northern waters. Scharnhorst torpedoed by Ardent and Acasta as an example), that's only 3 torp hits. Overall Germany might lose a ship or two to destroyer torpedoes, but I don't think the German fleet would have been wiped out by the destroyers.

 

Just my thoughts on the matter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester
1,960 posts

So for once, Goring's beloved Luftwaffe did their job without any help, unlike at Dunkirk, Britain and Stalingrad. Of course it is a question of whether the Soviet Baltic Fleet was even a threat to begin with. Anyway, if Hood couldn't resist Bismarck's firepower then I doubt the antiquated Russian battleships would've been a match for Tirpitz either.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,197
[SYN]
[SYN]
Members
6,809 posts
10,327 battles

It's an interesting scenario, there are a lot of scenarios where the outcome is pretty indecisive, or not quite as expected. There are a few major options for the Russian commander with historic precedent:

  1. All-in stand and fight per Trafalgar or per Scheer's turn back into Jellicoe at Jutland, the Russians have slower battleships so they may have to fight
  2. Partial sacrifice and run per Scharnhorst/Gneisenau at the Falklands in 1914. The heavier, slower German armored cruisers fought to try and buy time for the light units to flee, that could be the two RU BB's sacrificing themselves in this case
  3. Just run per Moon Sound, Strasbourg at Mers-el-Kebir etc. Try and use coastal batteries, shallow water etc. to escape.

Overall, I think the Russian objectives are constrained by St. Petersburg being at the bottom of the Gulf of Finland and the only place to go is really internment in Sweden, which seems a bit pointless, your ships are still out of the war. Given the Stalinist 'not one step back, comrade' mantra and what not you might expect them to fight if they do sortie. Or just scuttle in port and use the crews as Naval Infantry, or fight the ships from port for as long as possible providing artillery support. I think maybe just not sortieing is most likely.

If they do my general observations are -

  • Probably going to be a daylight action, unless the Russian commander wants to try and use the cover of night to escape, night makes everything higher risk for both sides, but may play more for the underdog - Russia. I don't know how good RU night fighting doctrine, training etc. is.
  • Tirpitz outclasses the two battleships so badly there are many scenarios where she cripples or sinks them, but few where she takes threatening damage in return, they're old 12in guns, they might do superstructure damage but little more barring something flukey such as a rudder hit
  • The Marat and Ok Rev are weakly armored and the track record for WWI era ships struck by WWII battleship projectiles - Hood, Provence, Bretagne, Kirishima - is pretty bad. Yeah I think Barham survived one hit from Richelieu, but overall, not good.
  • Destroyers are unlikely to be effective on either side. The Russians may have numbers but as observed many are old, and in WWI and WWII torpedo attacks in the face of destroyers rarely came off, at Jutland it took massed launches, at Java Sea results were poor and on occasions where there was success - Scharnhorst, Scharnhorst, Haguro, Surigao it was either night, very weak/no escort or a combination of the two. I can see some of them shooting the stuffing out of each other, even a few hits can cripple as seen at Narvik, Java Sea etc. The German CL may be decisive there, because light cruisers usually monster destroyers unless night/surprise (see Biscay, Passero, Oran v. Cape Bon,  Sept-Iles). The RU cruisers with their 2 RPM guns at that point in the war may be less effective, and may struggle to use a range advantage in a narrow channel with nowhere to go.
  • What is Leipzig doing here? I thought she was never fully repaired post-torpedoing so she's speed limited and basically an albatross around the neck of the Baltenflotte
  • Cruisers seemed to be lower priority than battleships to battleships, so Tirpitz may not engage them, however if they do attack separately on open water in daylight cruisers just have to retreat (numerous examples)

Most likely outcome is the Russians sit in port and maybe return fire if the Germans close in that far, which will probably end up being a repeat of Mers-el-Kebir. If they sortie it's likely that Tirpitz will escape heavy damage while the RU BB are one 15in round away from devastation, depending on where it lands. If there's an accompanying general melee there are likely to be casualties on both sides but an indecisive one overall, and probably no torpedo-launch heroics, though you never know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
435
[VW]
Members
1,934 posts
12,496 battles

the Oktyabrskaya Revolyutsiya  wouldnt have done so well given she can only put out 4 fires, assuming her captain had selected the appropriate skill prior to sailing

Edited by monpetitloup
  • Funny 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,717
[HINON]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
8,856 posts
3,680 battles
22 minutes ago, mofton said:

It's an interesting scenario, there are a lot of scenarios where the outcome is pretty indecisive, or not quite as expected. There are a few major options for the Russian commander with historic precedent:

  1. All-in stand and fight per Trafalgar or per Scheer's turn back into Jellicoe at Jutland, the Russians have slower battleships so they may have to fight
  2. Partial sacrifice and run per Scharnhorst/Gneisenau at the Falklands in 1914. The heavier, slower German armored cruisers fought to try and buy time for the light units to flee, that could be the two RU BB's sacrificing themselves in this case
  3. Just run per Moon Sound, Strasbourg at Mers-el-Kebir etc. Try and use coastal batteries, shallow water etc. to escape.

Overall, I think the Russian objectives are constrained by St. Petersburg being at the bottom of the Gulf of Finland and the only place to go is really internment in Sweden, which seems a bit pointless, your ships are still out of the war. Given the Stalinist 'not one step back, comrade' mantra and what not you might expect them to fight if they do sortie. Or just scuttle in port and use the crews as Naval Infantry, or fight the ships from port for as long as possible providing artillery support. I think maybe just not sortieing is most likely.

If they do my general observations are -

  • Probably going to be a daylight action, unless the Russian commander wants to try and use the cover of night to escape, night makes everything higher risk for both sides, but may play more for the underdog - Russia. I don't know how good RU night fighting doctrine, training etc. is.
  • Tirpitz outclasses the two battleships so badly there are many scenarios where she cripples or sinks them, but few where she takes threatening damage in return, they're old 12in guns, they might do superstructure damage but little more barring something flukey such as a rudder hit
  • The Marat and Ok Rev are weakly armored and the track record for WWI era ships struck by WWII battleship projectiles - Hood, Provence, Bretagne, Kirishima - is pretty bad. Yeah I think Barham survived one hit from Richelieu, but overall, not good.
  • Destroyers are unlikely to be effective on either side. The Russians may have numbers but as observed many are old, and in WWI and WWII torpedo attacks in the face of destroyers rarely came off, at Jutland it took massed launches, at Java Sea results were poor and on occasions where there was success - Scharnhorst, Scharnhorst, Haguro, Surigao it was either night, very weak/no escort or a combination of the two. I can see some of them shooting the stuffing out of each other, even a few hits can cripple as seen at Narvik, Java Sea etc. The German CL may be decisive there, because light cruisers usually monster destroyers unless night/surprise (see Biscay, Passero, Oran v. Cape Bon,  Sept-Iles). The RU cruisers with their 2 RPM guns at that point in the war may be less effective, and may struggle to use a range advantage in a narrow channel with nowhere to go.
  • What is Leipzig doing here? I thought she was never fully repaired post-torpedoing so she's speed limited and basically an albatross around the neck of the Baltenflotte
  • Cruisers seemed to be lower priority than battleships to battleships, so Tirpitz may not engage them, however if they do attack separately on open water in daylight cruisers just have to retreat (numerous examples)

Most likely outcome is the Russians sit in port and maybe return fire if the Germans close in that far, which will probably end up being a repeat of Mers-el-Kebir. If they sortie it's likely that Tirpitz will escape heavy damage while the RU BB are one 15in round away from devastation, depending on where it lands. If there's an accompanying general melee there are likely to be casualties on both sides but an indecisive one overall, and probably no torpedo-launch heroics, though you never know.

I can always count on you to go above and beyond on your comments!

 

Concerning Leipzig, she and Emden we're sent out ahead to support the army with shore bombardment and also to act as bait for the Soviet fleet.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
96
[ANKER]
Members
229 posts
3,654 battles
38 minutes ago, mofton said:

-snip-

Tirpitz alone would be heftily burdensome to the Baltic fleet. Based off accounts with Bismarck, Hipper, and Scharnhorst, the secondaries on those German ships are about as fearsome as they are in this game. With the destroyers at most doing screening, It'd be at best the German fleet basically 'port sniping' from range. In the event they do get engaged, the German fleet would likely shift to 'Kiting' as we call in this game, a tactic Scharnhorst herself used against the RN at North Cape, both from the cruisers and DoY. In that scenario, Nurn and Koln would be fighting 'as designed' , utilizing their rear turrets while Tirpitz meatshields them. 
Frankly, the fight is just unfair period. From a paper view, it looks ballsy to send just Tirpitz and a small escort fleet. In reality, Tirpitz is a modern monster compared to that antiquated fleet; as much of a crapshoot as Kirishima vs Washington, only worse. 
Scharn and Gneise alone, with Hipper and a small fleet of Z-destroyers could've done that, even with their 11" guns. Marat and Oktober might get lucky hits, but chances are high it'll be a repeat of the Glorious, only it'll take a little bit longer because they have some semblance of armor. 

The Russian Navy is basically a joke. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,717
[HINON]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
8,856 posts
3,680 battles
1 hour ago, Seniorious said:

Tirpitz alone would be heftily burdensome to the Baltic fleet. Based off accounts with Bismarck, Hipper, and Scharnhorst, the secondaries on those German ships are about as fearsome as they are in this game. With the destroyers at most doing screening, It'd be at best the German fleet basically 'port sniping' from range. In the event they do get engaged, the German fleet would likely shift to 'Kiting' as we call in this game, a tactic Scharnhorst herself used against the RN at North Cape, both from the cruisers and DoY. In that scenario, Nurn and Koln would be fighting 'as designed' , utilizing their rear turrets while Tirpitz meatshields them. 
Frankly, the fight is just unfair period. From a paper view, it looks ballsy to send just Tirpitz and a small escort fleet. In reality, Tirpitz is a modern monster compared to that antiquated fleet; as much of a crapshoot as Kirishima vs Washington, only worse. 
Scharn and Gneise alone, with Hipper and a small fleet of Z-destroyers could've done that, even with their 11" guns. Marat and Oktober might get lucky hits, but chances are high it'll be a repeat of the Glorious, only it'll take a little bit longer because they have some semblance of armor. 

The Russian Navy is basically a joke. 

 

It is extremely unlikely that the German fleet would have been kiting, certainly not Tirpitz as she was built for combat under 20km. Scharnhorst was only kiting because she was trying to get the heck out of Dodge, not because it was a preferred strategy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,099
[SYN]
[SYN]
Members
6,943 posts
7,518 battles
11 hours ago, dseehafer said:

 

I don't know. 1st you have to assume that all 24 DDs are present, some may have been in refit, or lacked fuel to leave immediately, and would the 7 oldy-goldies even be worth sending along? Then you have to assume that the majority of the destroyers present are able to get in torpedo range amidst the especially heavy anti-surface secondary firepower of the Tirpitz and Scheer and having to put up with the 3 "budget light cruiser" Type 1936 destroyers who were built to out-duel Polish destroyer leaders as well as any of the light cruisers which would have been firing at them as well (realistically Tirpitz and Scheer should be able to handle the Russian battleships and cruisers), and finally you have to assume that a good number of the torps even hit the German ships nevermind enough to sink 'em.

 

Let's say 12 Russian destroyers are sent (leaving behind the 7 oldy-goldies and assumes that 4 more are unable to attend for varying reasons), assume half of them (6) are able to get in range and launch torpedoes, that's approx 48 torpedoes in the water, assume 1 torp hits per two spreads (seems to be about the norm for destroyers launching torps at full-health BBs during WWII in Northern waters. Scharnhorst torpedoed by Ardent and Acasta as an example), that's only 3 torp hits. Overall Germany might lose a ship or two to destroyer torpedoes, but I don't think the German fleet would have been wiped out by the destroyers.

 

Just my thoughts on the matter.

3 things: I did say if all were able and present, first. Second, that area isn't exactly large, avoiding torpedo attacks in a confined area isn't easy. Third, the Soviets constantly, throughout the war, defied convention, and used massed attacks. My theory took those 3 things into account, I just didn't explain it well. I was dead tired. :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,717
[HINON]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
8,856 posts
3,680 battles
31 minutes ago, Th3KrimzonD3mon said:

3 things: I did say if all were able and present, first. Second, that area isn't exactly large, avoiding torpedo attacks in a confined area isn't easy. Third, the Soviets constantly, throughout the war, defied convention, and used massed attacks. My theory took those 3 things into account, I just didn't explain it well. I was dead tired. :P

 

Fair enough. Thanks for explaining further.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,197
[SYN]
[SYN]
Members
6,809 posts
10,327 battles
2 hours ago, Seniorious said:

Tirpitz alone would be heftily burdensome to the Baltic fleet. Based off accounts with Bismarck, Hipper, and Scharnhorst, the secondaries on those German ships are about as fearsome as they are in this game. With the destroyers at most doing screening, It'd be at best the German fleet basically 'port sniping' from range. In the event they do get engaged, the German fleet would likely shift to 'Kiting' as we call in this game, a tactic Scharnhorst herself used against the RN at North Cape, both from the cruisers and DoY. In that scenario, Nurn and Koln would be fighting 'as designed' , utilizing their rear turrets while Tirpitz meatshields them. 
Frankly, the fight is just unfair period. From a paper view, it looks ballsy to send just Tirpitz and a small escort fleet. In reality, Tirpitz is a modern monster compared to that antiquated fleet; as much of a crapshoot as Kirishima vs Washington, only worse. 
Scharn and Gneise alone, with Hipper and a small fleet of Z-destroyers could've done that, even with their 11" guns. Marat and Oktober might get lucky hits, but chances are high it'll be a repeat of the Glorious, only it'll take a little bit longer because they have some semblance of armor. 

The Russian Navy is basically a joke. 

I basically agree that the CL's don't add too greatly to the combat power of the KM fleet, but I'd certainly take them with me if they were available. It only makes sense to do so.

I can't imagine Tirpitz setting off for this sort of action without a destroyer screen, at least for ASW and anti-MTB work, and destroyer screening is generally important.

My overall impression is that secondaries had pretty limited success in WWII, and the Germans might have done a bit better but not much, they were frequently irrelevant or unsuccessful -

  • Graf Spee's weapons achieve nothing at River Plate
  • Hipper's set don't prevent Glowworm from ramming the ship, while the main battery does most of the work
  • Hipper's produce a couple of fairly irrelevant hits on Berwick while again, the main battery does the heavy lifting - ditto at Barents Sea
  • Scharnhorst is struck by a torpedo from Acasta when two battleships despite being attacked by only two destroyers - a flotilla of 8 would be a more serious threat
  • Bismarck's achieve nothing at Denmark Strait
  • Bismarck's in combination with a very accurate main battery performance stand off a weak night time torpedo attack (5 DD with 21 torpedoes, a flotilla of non-Tribal/N types would be 64 torpedoes)
  • Bismarck's achieve nothing at her final action
  • Scharnhorst has a mixed performance at her sinking, damaging Saumarez fairly badly, though the initial attack was relatively weak (4 DD) and from astern which is difficult (35kt DD chasing 30+kt BB in heavy seas), apparently her 105's may not even have been manned

If the RU BB don't sortie then I'd agree, Tirpitz enjoys some shooting practice against stationary targets, and the French never came off well in the examples they provide. 

2 hours ago, dseehafer said:

Concerning Leipzig, she and Emden we're sent out ahead to support the army with shore bombardment and also to act as bait for the Soviet fleet.

24kt bait?! Shotgun, not me!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
626 posts
1,630 battles

Seeing that Germany never captured Leningrad(but came very close) wouldn't the Russian fleet's destruction have allowed the Germans to take the port and start a coastal bombardment? Would that have been the end for Leningrad? I'm one who sees BB's coastal shelling role as secondary and unintended as "commerce raiding" but seeing the dire straits the city was in, could this have been the difference? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
289
[JFSOC]
Members
934 posts
2,818 battles

Given the history of the Soviet Navy in WW 2 one can easily make the argument they were one of the worst, if not the worst navies in terms of combat ability in existence.  Sorry, but them's the facts.  Their submarine service, the most active part of their navy, lost more submarines than they sank ships.  The surface fleet did next to nothing.  There were some unopposed amphibious operations that were successful, but these hardly argue for a competent navy.

I'd say that if the two met, the Soviet ships would have fought bravely and gone to their doom.

And, a little musical accompaniment on their demise:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester
1,960 posts
6 hours ago, Murotsu said:

I'd say that if the two met, the Soviet ships would have fought bravely and gone to their doom.

Or fleed to the safety of neutral Sweden, at least the ships lucky enough to escape the Baltenflotte. Who knows, maybe fleeing to neighbouring Finland where they could hide in the skerries would've also been practical. They were at war with the Soviets at the time (not to mention German allies), but better to be interned by the Finns than stay in Leningrad during a bloody siege right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,196
[SALT]
Alpha Tester, In AlfaTesters, Beta Testers
3,660 posts
2,671 battles

I also think that Germany feared them making a break and running to England which in turn would boost their combat effectiveness with more ships to help protect convoy's. Sure, the U-boats were in their honeymoon period around the time of these fleets engaging but Germany was under no illusion that more ships such as those destroyers could be converted into more convoy escorts and or afforded the protection of the Royal Air Force and Royal Navy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
335
[TOG]
Members
2,484 posts
14,966 battles
12 hours ago, Wolcott said:

Or fleed to the safety of neutral Sweden, at least the ships lucky enough to escape the Baltenflotte. Who knows, maybe fleeing to neighbouring Finland where they could hide in the skerries would've also been practical. They were at war with the Soviets at the time (not to mention German allies), but better to be interned by the Finns than stay in Leningrad during a bloody siege right?

The Finns were a co-belligerent of the Germans. They were  fighting on the Leningrad Front IIRC.  Internment in Sweden would had been the likely choice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
335
[TOG]
Members
2,484 posts
14,966 battles
12 hours ago, Azumazi said:

I also think that Germany feared them making a break and running to England which in turn would boost their combat effectiveness with more ships to help protect convoy's. Sure, the U-boats were in their honeymoon period around the time of these fleets engaging but Germany was under no illusion that more ships such as those destroyers could be converted into more convoy escorts and or afforded the protection of the Royal Air Force and Royal Navy.

looking at the Baltic sea map, they'll have to pass through the straight between Denmark and Sweden. Considering the Number of Luftwaffe bases on the south coast of the Baltic sea, let alone German U boats and coastal batteries. I don't the Russian Baltic fleet surviving to even remotely make the attempt.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×