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dmckay

An old debate. Kills or damage?

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Which leads first to Victory?  I like victory. Kill 2-3 right off the bat.....nice.  Demoralizing to Reds.  Damage many early on....nice.  Which is most important for VICTORY.  NOT points......wins! Not xp, etc.  Which do you think wins?  Kills right off the bat or longer and prolonged damage?   I like victory.  Little else matters to me. Seriously. 

Edited by dmckay
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Chuck Norris.

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I think kills matter more. The more kills the sooner you win. All the damage in the world doesn't matter if you can't kill anything. I'm not even sure where the question is.

Edited by SithSteel
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Damage. Damage is damage for the most part(we're having some discussions on the Conqueror page on how damage isn't equal). With kills though, kills are just so drastically different. It's quite conceivable for an inferior player to seek out heavily damaged ships and get a few kills off of what was mainly other ships work. This doesn't mean they really helped the team, while the players who did the work there are going to have that work reflected in damage not kills. 

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Just now, Aristotle83 said:

Damage. Damage is damage for the most part(we're having some discussions on the Conqueror page on how damage isn't equal). With kills though, kills are just so drastically different. It's quite conceivable for an inferior player to seek out heavily damaged ships and get a few kills off of what was mainly other ships work. This doesn't mean they really helped the team, while the players who did the work there are going to have that work reflected in damage not kills. 

Thoughtful. There is debate on this of course,. 

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Guns out of the game matter.  If I am playing a heavy hitter (CV or BB) and there is someone else going to finish off a ship, I let them so I can swing my bat at someone more healthy.  Vice versa, if I am playing a cruiser or destroyer, I finish off low health ships.

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Kills are more important as it removes guns from the fight, but it's impossible to get kills with out someone doing a lot of damage.....so in a round about way damage is more important because it leads to kills.  

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i think damage is the most important for team-play, but if you get the opportunity, every kill is between 4 and 16 guns of dps off the map. so i believe its a tradeoff, with kills being important for removing dps, but chasing a kill takes your guns out of the battle, when you could be doing more dps.

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Failing to actually finish an enemy off frequently comes back to haunt you.

 

I had a game in my Zao this morning where I got knocked down to 424 hitpoints, but escaped around an island and managed to get Repair Party off.  I then went on to sink both of the enemy team's remaining DD's and play a major role in securing the win, and picked up a Dreadnaught achievement in the process.

 

Somebody really should have chased me around that island and put one more shell into me.

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Loaded question--it can be either or neither: there are many subtle things you can do in a battle that will be the decisive factor in winning. Capping in a CV late game. Torpedo interdicting a cap or ship, causing them to give their broadsides to your team and getting sunk--no points for that! Scaring BBs off a push to a cap with a DD, leading a pack of fools out to get your CA that is flaming them repeatedly with HE... etc etc.

Either or questions bother me.

Edited by Stauffenberg44

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2 minutes ago, Vaidency said:

Failing to actually finish an enemy off frequently comes back to haunt you.

 

I had a game in my Zao this morning where I got knocked down to 424 hitpoints, but escaped around an island and managed to get Repair Party off.  I then went on to sink both of the enemy team's remaining DD's and play a major role in securing the win, and picked up a Dreadnaught achievement in the process.

 

Somebody really should have chased me around that island and put one more shell into me.

I've done the same on multiple occasions.

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If I see a lot of low health enemy we have a pretty good chance. If someone is able to finish the job.

You have a harder time making up a deficit in damage than a deficit in ships sunk.

That said, good tactics and caps win the game.

Edited by NashW8
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Seems to me you take your best shots.  If the best opportunities involve damaging multiple ships, you do that.  If the best opportunity is to concentrate on one, or finish off a low-hp ship, you do that.  There is no 'always best answer'.  It depends on the situation, and who's there with you and against you.

 

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6 minutes ago, Vaidency said:

Failing to actually finish an enemy off frequently comes back to haunt you.

On the other hand, if you knock off half of an enemy's health, but it runs away, and going for more is going to risk losing your own ship, then you may be better off damaging someone else next.  On the other hand, if the half-dead ship is still there in range like it was, sure, kill it.   You have to improvise on the run.  Later in the fight, you might have to hunt him down and finish him off.  On the other hand, you may not.  

 

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After the last season of ranked battles, I did an analysis of the players who had reached rank 1, and for the ships people played.

On average, I found that while both frags and damage correlated with winrate, frags correlate somewhat better.

The reason why damage doesn't correlate as well may be because of different ship types. DDs consistently do less damage than cruisers, who consistently do less damage than BBs/CVs.

When analysing the data for different ships (all the different tier 8 ships which were used in ranked, like the N Caro, Bismarck, Alabama, New Orleans, Fiji etc etc) I found that the winrates for different DDs varied a lot, but their average damage all stayed around the same. For BBs and especially CA/CLs however, winrate and damage had strong positive correlations. It might therefore be concluded that, in ranked battles, average damage does matter, but only for CA/CL/BBs.

 

However, there is a problem in establishing causality. While frags/damage may correlate with winrate, there's no way of knowing if that correlation is the result of frags/damage causing more wins, or because winning more means you get more frags/damage (farming damage on outnumbered enemies after the battle is already won).

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Always damage, if someone breaks off and stealth's up due to damage, they're almost as good as a kill. In any other case, damage is what needs to be done to secure kills.

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Kills. Kills directly lower the DPM of the enemy team which drops their ability to defend caps and support each other. Besides, knocking out potential radar, smoke, and AA is very beneficial to your teammates.

Edited by pewpewpew42
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For a long time I had been hearing that damage was king - but that seems to be true only in the realm of 'how do I improve my stats' rather than 'how does my team win?'

The spinoff debate on 'kill securing' that comes off of the idea of teammates finishing off a low-hp ship is one for another day - now that I'm (I guess) a seasoned veteran, I only get mad if someone else kills someone on low hp if I already fired, and then because it's a wasted salvo on my part.  In a BB or DD that's significant because of reload times, but in a cruiser it's a negligible irritation.  It's almost as bad as holding fire assuming someone else is going to finish off the target, and then nobody does.

But to the point - I'm of the opinion that kills win the game; it's been stated above and rightly so that any ship taken out of the battle is an advantage in guns not damaging YOUR team.  But let's not forget the point swing for every kill - a timely kill can swing the advantage to the other side, be it a close battle or one where the other team is close to 1000 points, and a kill gives your team just enough breathing room to recover and come back from the brink of defeat.

Edited by ThatSinkingFeeling
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I would make the argument that CONSTRUCTIVE DMG rather then regular FARMING DMG will give you better win rate %. Sometimes I don't need to have a hug DMG match to win because that also leads to a loss. The game rewards DMG then kills so I rather get DMG over a kraken if Its for the win.

So  what is the difference you ask? Here are a few examples of Farming DMG,

  1. Shoots and fires  HE spam at the first BB that is  spotted.
  2. Fires or HE spams the highest HP pool ship regardless if its a threat or not (AFK ships)
  3. Ignores low HP ships that may give us the win just to attack a higher HP ship.
  4.  Completely ignores the red leader board to see who he need to sink that is sinking us, 
  5. Sinks every ship except the red ships that are sinking our fleet, he is top of the losing board and blames the team for being "worthless"
  6. This farming behavior is in every game mode but when you must see it is in Epicenter and Domination mode.
  7.  Going after the CV regardless if its a threat or not in the situation.
  8. If its a cruiser, never firing at a DD or not sinking a DD and that lead to a loss.

So examples of Constructive DMG is as follows,

  1.  Sinks DDs in a DD heavy match.
  2. Attacks ships that pose a threat to our base or caps.
  3. SInks ships that are considered OP for its tier.
  4.  Is not paying attention to the DMG indicator and is more focusing the mini map to see where he can be of use to the fleet.
  5. Attacks AFK ships as last resort
  6. knows when to use HE over AP and viseversa
  7. Is situational aware of who to attack
  8.  Does not shoot at the first ship spotted.
  9. Only fires at ships that threatens our win
  10. Pays attention to who is leading the red board to take him out fast.
  11. He may go out with a flash  at the start, taking out 1 or 2 important red ships. This could be enough to start the process of winning.
  12. This behavior is more seen in Domination, Epicenter, and sometimes Regular matches.

As you can see,  I can tell if I am going to win or not solely in using this analogy. Winning is not easy and you guys my have a different point of view. So  Pay attention next time after reading my post.

Navalpride33

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

I would make the argument that CONSTRUCTIVE DMG rather then regular FARMING DMG will give you better win rate %. Sometimes I don't need to have a hug DMG match to win because that also leads to a loss. The game rewards DMG then kills so I rather get DMG over a kraken if Its for the win.

So  what is the difference you ask? Here are a few examples of Farming DMG,

  1. Shoots and fires  HE spam at the first BB that is  spotted.
  2. Fires or HE spams the highest HP pool ship regardless if its a threat or not (AFK ships)
  3. Ignores low HP ships that may give us the win just to attack a higher HP ship.
  4.  Completely ignores the red leader board to see who he need to sink that is sinking us, 
  5. Sinks every ship except the red ships that are sinking our fleet, he is top of the losing board and blames the team for being "worthless"
  6. This farming behavior is in every game mode but when you must see it is in Epicenter and Domination mode.
  7.  Going after the CV regardless if its a threat or not in the situation.
  8. If its a cruiser, never firing at a DD or not sinking a DD and that lead to a loss.

So examples of Constructive DMG is as follows,

  1.  Sinks DDs in a DD heavy match.
  2. Attacks ships that pose a threat to our base or caps.
  3. SInks ships that are considered OP for its tier.
  4.  Is not paying attention to the DMG indicator and is more focusing the mini map to see where he can be of use to the fleet.
  5. Attacks AFK ships as last resort
  6. knows when to use HE over AP and viseversa
  7. Is situational aware of who to attack
  8.  Does not shoot at the first ship spotted.
  9. Only fires at ships that threatens our win
  10. Pays attention to who is leading the red board to take him out fast.
  11. He may go out with a flash  at the start, taking out 1 or 2 important red ships. This could be enough to start the process of winning.
  12. This behavior is more seen in Domination, Epicenter, and sometimes Regular matches.

As you can see,  I can tell if I am going to win or not solely in using this analogy. Winning is not easy and you guys my have a different point of view. So  Pay attention next time after reading my post.

Navalpride33

Quoting for emphasis.

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Not entirely related to the thread, but I got a 35k damage Kraken in my Akizuki. I really like getting kills, just something satisfying about it. 

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