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NoCoGaming3645

Asashio... Just... NO.

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I'm a DD main, and particularly favor the IJN line. I've long complained about the miserable treatment IJN DDs get in this game.

That said, looking at the Asashio, I can't see ANYTHING that makes me think this is a ship that's possible to fix and make playable.

DWT were a stupid idea to begin with, and the ones on the Asashio takes that to reductio ad absurdum

20km torps, in addition are just stupidly bad for the game, in any form.

The Asashio is unfixable. Just trash the thing and rethink the entire concept, where any form of DWT is NOT in the discussion.

 

For instance, maybe something like a Shiratsuyu with both smoke and TRB at T8?   Or maybe a 3x3 tube Kagero?  Or heck, even a Yugumo with one less turret but another 4-torp launcher.

 

Anything but the abomination that the current Asashio idea is.

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I'm a little insulted that they took it (smoke + TRB) off the Shira (presumably because it's too OP), and then did a 180 and said "hey, let's try it on this premium ship, it'll be great!"

 

 

 

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Flamu did a video today on the "balance" changes today on the Asashio and reached the conclusion that nothing changed at all. I don't think however the ship is unfixable. The TRB would have to go, but it has been suggested pretty often how the ability to switch between normal and DWT (with a reload time penalty to simulate the correct depth being set) could be the solution to the issue. It could keep the 67 knot torps in normal mode but with a range of 10km. You would therefore have basically a normal Kagero and a DWT flavor option. The DWT could be slower but get to 15-20km.

Of course all that is wishful thinking, and to be honest I agree with you OP that in the end they should just probably scrap it.

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They keep pushing premium BB's and this DD isn't anything but to punish aggressive BB players like he said.

1 minute ago, warheart1992 said:

Flamu did a video today on the "balance" changes today on the Asashio and reached the conclusion that nothing changed at all. I don't think however the ship is unfixable. The TRB would have to go, but it has been suggested pretty often how the ability to switch between normal and DWT (with a reload time penalty to simulate the correct depth being set) could be the solution to the issue. It could keep the 67 knot torps in normal mode but with a range of 10km. You would therefore have basically a normal Kagero and a DWT flavor option. The DWT could be slower but get to 15-20km.

Of course all that is wishful thinking, and to be honest I agree with you OP that in the end they should just probably scrap it.

 

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7 hours ago, khorender_1 said:

They keep pushing premium BB's and this DD isn't anything but to punish aggressive BB players like he said.

 

I don't get it why so many think this ship is punishing to aggressive BB players. To aggressive BB players, these torpedoes are nothing more than a more damaging PA DD DWT without the ability to hit cruisers-where the low detection is most effective. It is more punishing to camping BBs most definitely. At the current short range torpedoes, there is no way to sneak a DD into enemy spawn and take them out. Those camping BBs deserves to be punish without anybody taking any risk at all and these Asashio torps with low detection and long range does just that. My suggestion though is to equip every IJN DDs with these torpedoes as consumables so you can use them along with standard torpedoes when you spot a camping BB or when the situation is called for. So the number of these torpedoes are limited, at the same time, preserve IJN DDs with DD fighting capability.

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13 minutes ago, l1nv5 said:

I don't get it why so many think this ship is punishing to aggressive BB players. To aggressive BB players, these torpedoes are nothing more than a more damaging PA DD DWT without the ability to hit cruisers-where the low detection is most effective. It is more punishing to camping BBs most definitely. At the current short range torpedoes, there is no way to sneak a DD into enemy spawn and take them out. Those camping BBs deserves to be punish without anybody taking any risk at all and these Asashio torps with low detection and long range does just that. My suggestion though is to equip every IJN DDs with these torpedoes as consumables so you can use them along with standard torpedoes when you spot a camping BB or when the situation is called for. So the number of these torpedoes are limited, at the same time, preserve IJN DDs with DD fighting capability.

No. It's a lot more punishing to a pushing BB.

One: They'll be focusing on what's going on around them.
Two: The Ashasio has much faster torps than the Pan Asian line, with 20k Damage per torps.
Three: Other things punish camping BB's much better, and at the range they are, you probably won't reliably hit him anyway.

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9 hours ago, EAnybody said:

For instance, maybe something like a Shiratsuyu with both smoke and TRB at T8?   Or maybe a 3x3 tube Kagero?  Or heck, even a Yugumo with one less turret but another 4-torp launcher.

 

Anything but the abomination that the current Asashio idea is.

I'll take Asashio with 10km Type 90 torp with smoke and TRB + 10.4km Kagero's gun. this make a fine T8 premium DD already.

 

BB hitting only torp + LOL AA is just too gimmicky

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Using the existing Asashio's hull, I'd say that a T8 with 2x4 10km Type 90s, 2 gun turrets equal to the Kagero's, Smoke + TRB would be good.

NOT with the Kagero's concealment, though. Maybe 0.3km worse.  Better speed than the Kag, but worse turning and rudder shift.

 

Alternately, at T9, go with the Yugumo hull, delete one of the turrets, and add another 4x torpedo tube. Increase the torp reload time by 25%. +0.1km concealment, but otherwise same handling as Yugumo.  Give it the 12km Type 93 mod3.

Edited by EAnybody

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100% right - anything that can fire at long distances and wipe out other ships without those ships being able to retaliate is silly.....oh wait, isn't that what one type of....never mind. :Smile-_tongue:

 

All praise the hybrid that is B(DD)B!

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2 hours ago, Kaga_Kai_Ni said:

Two: The Ashasio has much faster torps than the Pan Asian line, with 20k Damage per torps.

At 0.9km and 0.8km concealment, faster torps doesn't mean much. Yes it has higher BASE damage but in use, they deal about the same amount, probably 11k/hit vs 12k/hit. That has not counted for Asashio can't hit CA, which is the main target when you go with low concealment torps and having the worst guns of the game (some still think it's good though due to the arc, but most feel it's worst) which means you can't go one-on-one with a DD.

Again, my point is the torpedo itself is no different from PA DD torpedo in a pushing BB point of view. If PA DD torpedoes is dangerous to pushing BBs, Asashio torpedoes are only as damaging, no more no less.

While in camping BB point of view, the 20km range is what makes the difference.

Thus, Asashio torps make no difference for pushing BBs while take away some of the safety from camping BBs, not saying it's enough to lure them out of their hides, but it's certainly a right push in a good direction.

When you want someone to change their playstyle, you can't pamper them but have to force them to change. Sadly that's the fact.

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22 minutes ago, _WaveRider_ said:

100% right - anything that can fire at long distances and wipe out other ships without those ships being able to retaliate is silly.....oh wait, isn't that what one type of....never mind. :Smile-_tongue:

Hahaha

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5 hours ago, l1nv5 said:

At 0.9km and 0.8km concealment, faster torps doesn't mean much. Yes it has higher BASE damage but in use, they deal about the same amount, probably 11k/hit vs 12k/hit. That has not counted for Asashio can't hit CA, which is the main target when you go with low concealment torps and having the worst guns of the game (some still think it's good though due to the arc, but most feel it's worst) which means you can't go one-on-one with a DD.

Again, my point is the torpedo itself is no different from PA DD torpedo in a pushing BB point of view. If PA DD torpedoes is dangerous to pushing BBs, Asashio torpedoes are only as damaging, no more no less.

While in camping BB point of view, the 20km range is what makes the difference.

Thus, Asashio torps make no difference for pushing BBs while take away some of the safety from camping BBs, not saying it's enough to lure them out of their hides, but it's certainly a right push in a good direction.

When you want someone to change their playstyle, you can't pamper them but have to force them to change. Sadly that's the fact.

PA DDs don't get TRB with their 420-blaze-it smokes.

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Hey

I guess I look at it a little different.  While 20 km range is a bit much but something like 12-14km range makes more sense.  I think this ship is a good counter to so much of the campy, sit back near base playstyle of BB's these days, which I find frustrating on so many levels, and it's only getting worse in the last year.   There is far less aggressive BB play today and then those that did (usually German BB's) got spanked with AP Bombs, RN HE spamming BB's, Deep water torps, and then now we wonder why there is so much camping, thanks Wargaming to punish those that did push and aid their teams.  That being said; I want to see a DD that is able to get these camper BB's on the run; maybe I just prefer to hunt ships instead of contesting caps with little to no help from your team, time and time again.

 

Pete

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22 hours ago, pikohan said:

I'm a little insulted that they took it (smoke + TRB) off the Shira (presumably because it's too OP), and then did a 180 and said "hey, let's try it on this premium ship, it'll be great!"

 

 

 

WG gave in to player pressure on the Shiratsuyu nerf. Putting them back will be admitting they did wrong. If we learned anything so far, it's WG is too proud to do that.

Now they ran out of idea on selling the same IJN premium DD without an anime girl. And Kagero is really a boring and under powered ship to keep making copies of, unlike Fletcher. So here we are...

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The fix for BB camping is Idiot simple:

Nerf BB accuracy HARD.

If they can't hit stuff from 15km away, they won't shoot back there.  Notice that KM BBs don't camp that much. It's because they can't hit crap past 75% of their max range.  Make that the same for ALL BBs, and we'll see camping end.

 

All WG has to do is increase Sigma by 15%, and dispersion by 25%, for all non-KM BBs.  When they can't hit more than 1 time every other salvo even on huge stationary targets at 17km, they'll quit camping.

Edited by EAnybody

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On 3/3/2018 at 9:27 PM, EAnybody said:

The fix for BB camping is Idiot simple:

Nerf BB accuracy HARD.

If they can't hit stuff from 15km away, they won't shoot back there.  Notice that KM BBs don't camp that much. It's because they can't hit crap past 75% of their max range.  Make that the same for ALL BBs, and we'll see camping end.

 

All WG has to do is increase Sigma by 15%, and dispersion by 25%, for all non-KM BBs.  When they can't hit more than 1 time every other salvo even on huge stationary targets at 17km, they'll quit camping.

Hey

Nerf BB's?  The Germans are already dispersion nerf'd to being a pain in the butt to hit much (as you mentioned above) but then Wargaming came out with AP bombs that hurt the Germans the most, deep water torps, but we still see a lack of BB push these days especially at higher tiers.  No; I personally think the BB hunting DD is a good way to go to help get these NOOB BB players moving.  I will get the Asashio when (IF) it comes out, since I prefer to hunt ships myself over try to get caps when your potato team does very little to aid your efforts.

 

Pete  

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On 3/5/2018 at 3:25 PM, sasquatch_research said:

Hey

Nerf BB's?  The Germans are already dispersion nerf'd to being a pain in the butt to hit much (as you mentioned above) but then Wargaming came out with AP bombs that hurt the Germans the most, deep water torps, but we still see a lack of BB push these days especially at higher tiers.  No; I personally think the BB hunting DD is a good way to go to help get these NOOB BB players moving.  I will get the Asashio when (IF) it comes out, since I prefer to hunt ships myself over try to get caps when your potato team does very little to aid your efforts.

 

Pete  

I'm with Pete on this one.

The Kagero is complete trash and after having gotten all of 3 torpedo hits in the course of 4 games tonight, using TRB, for a whopping total of less than 50k damage added up over all 4 games, I'm done with the IJN DDs. They are dead to me until WG fixes them. And that's sad because they were way better before the split. Tier 8 Fubuki was awesome and I had racked up 2/3rds the exp i needed to unlock the old tier 9 Kagero before the split. After the split and the 'rebalancing', the only way I'm gonna play another IJN is if it's the Asashio. Because at least then I know i'll have a chance at hitting at least SOMETHING with my *MAIN ARMAMENT* of torpedoes, rather than having to rely on my absolute trash guns to deal damage. And funnily enough, I do more damage with IJN guns than I ever do with their torpedoes now. Mostly because an IJN torp salvo can be spotted from the surface of the moon now.

Even the Kamikaze has become infuriating to play and do any kind of meaningful damage with. And in order to salvage any type of experience from a win or a loss, I have to resort to using the guns just because unlike their torpedoes, you can actually HIT targets with guns.

Until a fix comes in, as far as the IJN DD line for me is concerned: Asashio or GTFO.

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Hey

Maybe the idea of decreasing the detection range of torpedo's might actually help with torp strikes and force the BB's (and other classes too) of being less campers and more on the move.  I get tired too of the torp indicator as a guide since it seems like you get maybe 1 in 10 torps to actually hit anything.  With lower detection it would increase the number of strikes, increase damage for DD's and even cruisers who fire torps, it could make DD play fun too, since Japanese take such a nerf to their torp detection at it is.  Maybe make deepwater torps 1km detection and the others from 1.0-1.3 k depending on nation and make the speed be the varying element.  All ships should have usable torps too; this garbage of having 4-5 km range is not even fun since they are so much shorter than your ships detection, especially as a DD.

 

P.S.  Even the German BB's get screwed since they were known to be brawlers but thanks current meta, they got hit hard due to power creep, their [edited] dispersion ( had a battle today in which barely sank a beached Yorck at 5 KM thanks to dispersion, secondary final killed him, missed numerous times on a broadside Edinburgh at 4.5 km, due to crappy Gneisenau dispersion and actually lost the fight because of it.  Really, guns can hit at 20km, ok BUT can't hit at 4.5 km either, they should be super accurate at that range.  But no, they get screwed dispersion all the way around.  Hard to brawl with guns like that.  The Secondaries did good but without manuals, you can't and shouldn't rely on them to get kills.

 

Pete  

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3 hours ago, sasquatch_research said:

Hey

Maybe the idea of decreasing the detection range of torpedo's might actually help with torp strikes and force the BB's (and other classes too) of being less campers and more on the move.  I get tired too of the torp indicator as a guide since it seems like you get maybe 1 in 10 torps to actually hit anything.  With lower detection it would increase the number of strikes, increase damage for DD's and even cruisers who fire torps, it could make DD play fun too, since Japanese take such a nerf to their torp detection at it is.  Maybe make deepwater torps 1km detection and the others from 1.0-1.3 k depending on nation and make the speed be the varying element.  All ships should have usable torps too; this garbage of having 4-5 km range is not even fun since they are so much shorter than your ships detection, especially as a DD.

 

P.S.  Even the German BB's get screwed since they were known to be brawlers but thanks current meta, they got hit hard due to power creep, their [edited] dispersion ( had a battle today in which barely sank a beached Yorck at 5 KM thanks to dispersion, secondary final killed him, missed numerous times on a broadside Edinburgh at 4.5 km, due to crappy Gneisenau dispersion and actually lost the fight because of it.  Really, guns can hit at 20km, ok BUT can't hit at 4.5 km either, they should be super accurate at that range.  But no, they get screwed dispersion all the way around.  Hard to brawl with guns like that.  The Secondaries did good but without manuals, you can't and shouldn't rely on them to get kills.

 

Pete  

If you actually manage 1/10 hit...you actually have a 10% hit rate, and that is very good already...most ppl only average 7-8% hit.

It would be great if a hit rate of 10% is the average for the players.

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6 hours ago, SkyRail said:

If you actually manage 1/10 hit...you actually have a 10% hit rate, and that is very good already...most ppl only average 7-8% hit.

It would be great if a hit rate of 10% is the average for the players.

Hey

For me it's much lower than 10%; I was being generous in the statement; not a reflection of my abilities (LOL).  I seem to suck with torps and that torp guide usage.

 

Pete

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22 hours ago, sasquatch_research said:

Hey

Maybe the idea of decreasing the detection range of torpedo's might actually help with torp strikes and force the BB's (and other classes too) of being less campers and more on the move.  I get tired too of the torp indicator as a guide since it seems like you get maybe 1 in 10 torps to actually hit anything.  With lower detection it would increase the number of strikes, increase damage for DD's and even cruisers who fire torps, it could make DD play fun too, since Japanese take such a nerf to their torp detection at it is.  Maybe make deepwater torps 1km detection and the others from 1.0-1.3 k depending on nation and make the speed be the varying element.  All ships should have usable torps too; this garbage of having 4-5 km range is not even fun since they are so much shorter than your ships detection, especially as a DD.

 

P.S.  Even the German BB's get screwed since they were known to be brawlers but thanks current meta, they got hit hard due to power creep, their [edited] dispersion ( had a battle today in which barely sank a beached Yorck at 5 KM thanks to dispersion, secondary final killed him, missed numerous times on a broadside Edinburgh at 4.5 km, due to crappy Gneisenau dispersion and actually lost the fight because of it.  Really, guns can hit at 20km, ok BUT can't hit at 4.5 km either, they should be super accurate at that range.  But no, they get screwed dispersion all the way around.  Hard to brawl with guns like that.  The Secondaries did good but without manuals, you can't and shouldn't rely on them to get kills.

 

Pete  

Its a proven fact that torpedoes have had zero impact on the camping meta of randoms.  This was proven with the IJN torpedo and CV nerfs.  Literally nothing changed.  You want a less campy meta?  Nerf all BB range to 18km.  I'd actually consider that a buff for the average BB player as they will actually start to be effective at that range.  The problem is the player base is too crapto understand what they should be doing.

Almost all torpedoes in the game are balanced.  Possibly the only ones that might need a buff are the mid tier IJN DD.  Usable torps on all ships?  So Khaba should get her [edited] 10km torps back?  Its not going to happen.  IMO all the torps are fine.

I am not a fan of the [edited] DW torp crap either.  PA DDs should have equivalent torps to match what ever existing ship they are copied from.  Again, they also prove the torps have not changed the meta a single bit.

 

Edited by Destroyer_KuroshioKai

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10 hours ago, Destroyer_KuroshioKai said:

Its a proven fact that torpedoes have had zero impact on the camping meta of randoms.  This was proven with the IJN torpedo and CV nerfs.  Literally nothing changed.  You want a less campy meta?  Nerf all BB range to 18km.  I'd actually consider that a buff for the average BB player as they will actually start to be effective at that range.  The problem is the player base is too crapto understand what they should be doing.

Almost all torpedoes in the game are balanced.  Possibly the only ones that might need a buff are the mid tier IJN DD.  Usable torps on all ships?  So Khaba should get her [edited] 10km torps back?  Its not going to happen.  IMO all the torps are fine.

I am not a fan of the [edited] DW torp crap either.  PA DDs should have equivalent torps to match what ever existing ship they are copied from.  Again, they also prove the torps have not changed the meta a single bit.

 

Hey

Well I don't agree with the concept of BB reduction in gun range for the simple fact that the existing BB gun range is already lower than anything historically related, but being a non-realistic video game, that doesn't change the fact that too many players are of the mindset of entitlement,  it's all about me, and less about my team winning by playing the objective.  Maybe more could be done to concealment of DD's by removing the CV spotting range, increase torp range slightly, giving German DD's better smoke (& concealment perhaps), make IJN torps have a lower detection/spotting range than present.  It's not fair to blame the BB's for all of the issues in this game when it really comes down to the mentality of the players themselves.  I have at times been very outspoken about the current bunch of BB's (RN) who have a stupid amount of HE usage over their equals, and been outspoken about BB camping by many of the current players at all tiers.  It is their selfish, lack of team play, support your team in any way possible, not playing the objective that is ruining this game, much more so than any BB or ship nerf/buff.

 

Pete

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9 minutes ago, sasquatch_research said:

Well I don't agree with the concept of BB reduction in gun range for the simple fact that the existing BB gun range is already lower than anything historically related

Wouldn't have to reduce the range, just make accuracy start approaching real life levels as the range increases past a certain point. You CAN shoot at 30K+, just don't plan on hitting anything on a regular basis.

As far as "in game" physics, if you shorten the range, would you increase the ability to fire over islands at shorter ranges? (yea, more island camping!)

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11 hours ago, Sabot_100 said:

Wouldn't have to reduce the range, just make accuracy start approaching real life levels as the range increases past a certain point. You CAN shoot at 30K+, just don't plan on hitting anything on a regular basis.

As far as "in game" physics, if you shorten the range, would you increase the ability to fire over islands at shorter ranges? (yea, more island camping!)

Hey

If your going to do that then maybe we should discuss the issue of dud or errant torpedo's,  Or flooding to DD's and cruiser when BB rounds over pen, not to mention the gun accuracy of DD's and cruisers would also have to be adjusted, and the fact that by the ned of the war, almost all ship had radar which could be used continuously.  Starting to see a problem here with balance and a reasonable game play.

 

Pete

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12 hours ago, sasquatch_research said:

If your going to do that then maybe we should discuss the issue of dud or errant torpedo's, 

Lots of dud shells too from the after action reports from the Iron Bottom Sound actions. Here I was just brainstorming a method to make back line camping BBs less effective and thus encourage them to move up. It would also make life easier for cruisers that end up getting one-shotted by BBs across the map even when they are properly angled to all the local threats. It's only as you get to maximum range that your accuracy would fall off. Could apply it to other classes  ship types too, but they don't have the same camping meta.

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