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Red_Hammer_Fleet

Upper-Tier Skill Wall

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I spent the last week grinding from T6 to T7. My signature lists the ships I currently own. I need to earn some credits to buy the Minsk, but that's all.

Here's my issue: I've been playing at T6 quite comfortably. I win some games, lose others, get kills and otherwise enjoy playing. I used to panic seeing T8 ships on the enemy team, but now I'm used to it and do sink them when the opportunity presents itself (guns or torpedoes, always depending on the situation at hand). I scout well with my IJN boats, bully cap circles in my German boats, run-and-gun with my Russian boats, and otherwise raise hell in my American boats.

But as soon as I stepped into a T7 DD, everything falls apart when I face T9 enemies. My Akatsuki got murdered in a few seconds by a two-ship Yugumo division. I checked my minimap and was suddenly dead. My theory is that I need to adapt my tactics away from mid-tier and into high-tier play. Admittedly, I'm not all that good to begin with. My stats bear that out quite well. I just want to go from "baby seal" to "not incompetent", which is where I am right now in a T7 DD.

I know that each DD line plays differently. I won't play my Fubuki in anything near the way I play a Farragut or Gaede, it's suicide to attempt otherwise. I just need some tips, because getting my face handed to me every game is just depressing.

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The issue with T7 DDs is that sadly you start at a disadvantage because tiers 8/9 get new modules that can decrease even further their spotting range. You need to be very careful therefore from the start where and what you engage. Furthermore the Akatsuki imo doesn't really feel like an improvement over Fubuki.

Personally the first thing I would do is be able to know what the minimum detection range of any T8/9 DD is. That will help you judge what your buffer range is where you get spotted but spot nobody.

Secondly, leaving a cap is not necessarily a bad thing. It's not a small thing but is less important at the start than being killed while trying to get it. If you feel the cap is too hot to contest and are already spotted, drop torps at the nearest smoke, pop your own and leave it for now. The longer you survive in a DD, the more helpful you are later on when you the distance between ships becomes larger and you can isolate BBs.

Last, staying still in smoke  nowadays is suicidal. When Im contesting caps and spot anybody, I wait for them to smoke, then throw one set of torps on their last location and one a bit left or right depending on their speed. You have therefore to present the smallest possible target to avoid most torps. Thats all I can think on the top of my head, wish you luck. :Smile_honoring:

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As you start getting into higher tiers, your commander skills, camo bonuses, flag bonuses, etc start to matter even more. You are going to run into ships with 19 pt commanders that are full stealth. So first, make sure your ship (DD in this case) has the maximum concealment you can get. Second, you will have to start learning about other DDs (that you might not even have played yet) and know when to engage and when not to engage.

sometimes there is simply nothing you can do, but most of the time, when you find yourself as the bottom tier DD, play more passive that usual if you can.

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Pay good attention to the minimap and enable the function; shipname and their last position.

Learn to retreat when you can’t win or will lose a lot of hp fighting. No shame in coming back later on. Try to save your smoke for heavy fire only, not for a few shells popping around you.

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52 minutes ago, Red_Hammer_Fleet said:

I just need some tips

This is the only tip that has ever worked for me, Amigo; PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE ...

Also, German DDs at those tiers (8, 9, and 10) get A LOT better; you might find it easier to get used to the high tier meta playing them.

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I felt a slight shock myself when I got into tier 7 DDs at first,  big thing you need is Concealment Captain skill which at tier 7+ it is no longer optional, it’s pretty much required. Other thing is look up which ships carry Radar and the range / duration of that so you know when to move in on targets.

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I agree with practice- but would limit it to the same style of DD.  Pan Asian and USA are a good combo to grind together with similar guns.  If you play all the different styles of dd's at the same time it is just going to be frustrating.

Edited by Reckun

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1 hour ago, Reckun said:

but would limit it to the same style of DD.

Absolutely!

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T8 has an extra module slot and T9 has +2 modules Over T7. 

Sure CMDRs make a difference also, but it is also highly possible to have an equal skilled commander. 

Only patience and experience will make up the differences Vs. those addition module options. 

Keep on keeping on; eventually you'll figure out how to best fight from that deficit. It's like you're at T5 again and fighting above your weight-class. 

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I think the most important advice given in this thread is to just keep on truckin'.

Defeats are sometimes more valuable than wins, when one has less than 1K matches played - as they often provide something valuable to learn.

It sounds like you have a pretty good handle on the national DD roles - just keep playing them, keep having fun, and stay open to learning from the defeats as well as the wins.

The beauty of T7 is that you will often be top tier, T8 is where it gets tough - as it is often bottom tier, these days (that may be entirely anecdotal - but it sure seems that way to me!).  Tier 9 and 10 are gravy - and the destroyers at those tiers are a blast.

DDs are arguably the most complex and challenging class to enter a match with - but when it all goes well, they are also arguably the most rewarding.

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Playing high tiers is a completely different thing, I really dont enjoy it and Tier V- VI is where I enjoy most.

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13 hours ago, Reckun said:

I agree with practice- but would limit it to the same style of DD.  Pan Asian and USA are a good combo to grind together with similar guns.  If you play all the different styles of dd's at the same time it is just going to be frustrating.

even the same line has a slightly differently style kind of ship.

IJN DD for example, Shiratsuyu plays differently compare to Akatsuki just cos the slow speed and turrent placement. Akizuki is totally different from the rest.

sometimes its more important to just find the right ship to play and have maximum fun than to grind all the way to T10 and realise that is not even the ship you like to play.

 

* That's why I like premium ships. you don't need to grind. buy it and play a lot of game in her to worth every panny. most of my most played ships are premium

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I've been playing a lot with other members of my clan, working on tactics and teamwork. I think I'm getting better because I have to look at my division mates and think of what I can do for them over what I want. It feels like there is a dividing line between just playing randoms alone and playing in a division with voice comms. I'm more willing to give up a cap for the sake of surviving longer, since I'm one of the few people in my clan who consistently plays DDs.

On 3/1/2018 at 12:30 PM, warheart1992 said:

Last, staying still in smoke  nowadays is suicidal. When Im contesting caps and spot anybody, I wait for them to smoke, then throw one set of torps on their last location and one a bit left or right depending on their speed.

Yep. Smoke screens are torpedo magnets. I almost never use smoke unless trying to break contact after being spotted. A nice side effect is that learning what ships have radar, duration times, and ranges.

On 3/1/2018 at 12:32 PM, KyourakuShunsui said:

So first, make sure your ship (DD in this case) has the maximum concealment you can get. Second, you will have to start learning about other DDs (that you might not even have played yet) and know when to engage and when not to engage.

I just finished re-setting my captains to have Concealment Expert and perma-camo; I'm looking forward to setting those captains into T8s with that extra module, particularly the IJN and KM captains. Reading about ships doesn't really work for me, I sort of have to beat my head against the wall to get the hang of what enemy ships are capable of. Once I play against an enemy ship over six to ten games, I get a good handle on how they play. Nice IGN, BTW.

On 3/1/2018 at 2:52 PM, Reckun said:

I agree with practice- but would limit it to the same style of DD.

I'm sort of a glutton for punishment. It's nice to jump into different play-styles, it forces me to pay attention and not check out mentally. I was in my Maaß the other day, right after having played in my Akatsuki. I remember dropping a full spread of torpedoes at an enemy ship on Two Brothers, then realized that I didn't have the range to land a hit.

If I played the same ship line all the way, I think I would be at T9 or maybe even T10. Had I kept my Kirov, I would probably have a Moskva by now. The difference is that I decided to play each ship line through each tier in series. Once I ground my way through all the T6 DDs in the game, I started grinding each of them up to T7. The net result is that I spend far more time in a matchmaking spread than I would otherwise, and actually get to see how each tier is as a whole. I'll be doing the same for T7-T8, T8-T9, and T9-T10. I'm also acquiring real skills and tactical knowledge, so I won't be a total moron once I actually arrive in the upper tiers. By the time I get my first couple T10s, I'll be fairly nasty in any given boat that I choose.

On 3/2/2018 at 4:08 AM, SkyRail said:

IJN DD for example, Shiratsuyu plays differently compare to Akatsuki just cos the slow speed and turrent placement. Akizuki is totally different from the rest.

Absolutely. The Akatsuki feels a lot like Fubuki but with a better layout for kiting, Shiratsuyu still confuses me a little bit. I love the general-purpose versatility of the German destroyers, but each of the others has a place that sort of works for it. Except for the Russians ... those boats confuse the :etc_swear: out of me. I need to save up some credits and buy the Minsk, but I've been dragging my feet.

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9 hours ago, Red_Hammer_Fleet said:

Except for the Russians ... those boats confuse the :etc_swear: out of me. I need to save up some credits and buy the Minsk, but I've been dragging my feet.

The russians get better from tier 8 onwards. You can already see how they play from Podvoisky, but the combination of speed+range that both upper tier lines offer you is what made them threatening. Minsk has good gun range, and speed, but the 4 km torps are a decoration unless you actively hunt and rush BBs. Gnevny has good gun range and not so good speed. Podvoisky has god-like speed but not that much range.

After you get to tier 8 you get excellent range on the guns and workable torp range, and you are going over 40 knots with any of the 6 ships (except Ognevoi, which is sort of similar to Gnevny but with good torps). They are a hassle to fight against in DDs, so normally you attack them in packs, and you have to get hella close to fight them efficiently.

Edited by hanesco

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On 3/3/2018 at 2:51 PM, hanesco said:

The russians get better from tier 8 onwards. You can already see how they play from Podvoisky, but the combination of speed+range that both upper tier lines offer you is what made them threatening. Minsk has good gun range, and speed, but the 4 km torps are a decoration unless you actively hunt and rush BBs. Gnevny has good gun range and not so good speed. Podvoisky has god-like speed but not that much range.

After you get to tier 8 you get excellent range on the guns and workable torp range, and you are going over 40 knots with any of the 6 ships (except Ognevoi, which is sort of similar to Gnevny but with good torps). They are a hassle to fight against in DDs, so normally you attack them in packs, and you have to get hella close to fight them efficiently.

I'm dragging by feet on buying the Minsk. I have it researched, but the Podvoisky and Gnevny were exhausting to play. I started to get the hang of Gnevny at the end of the grind. I'm guessing that Minsk is sort of the last hurdle to go on the line. I'm slowly getting the hang of the gunfight-capable DDs like Mahan and Maaß, so maybe the Minsk will be more fun than its predecessors. I'll probably get the Ognevoi before Kiev, though playing through 100K XP twice will be a bit of a chore if the Minsk plays anything like the Gnevny.

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1 hour ago, Red_Hammer_Fleet said:

I'm dragging by feet on buying the Minsk. I have it researched, but the Podvoisky and Gnevny were exhausting to play. I started to get the hang of Gnevny at the end of the grind. I'm guessing that Minsk is sort of the last hurdle to go on the line. I'm slowly getting the hang of the gunfight-capable DDs like Mahan and Maaß, so maybe the Minsk will be more fun than its predecessors. I'll probably get the Ognevoi before Kiev, though playing through 100K XP twice will be a bit of a chore if the Minsk plays anything like the Gnevny.

It is the same playstyle. All the russian line (both lines, in fact) play like Gnevny. The only difference is that you have more usable torps from tier 8 onwards. Ognevoi is the odd one as her firepower is pitiful (only a little better than Kagero) and her torps are good (not great, mind you). The downside is their huge detection range (with Kiev on the 9 km window without any concealment bonus) so you have to bombard BBs and cruisers at range. They are not good DD hunters because of their detection which is easily 1,5-2 km more than the same tier DD of other nations.

 

Minsk plays more like a German DD without the torp range to be an hybrid. You can push caps with it, but it is not advisable to do so. She is more effective if you bombard bigger things at 12-14 km ranges. Minsk detection is decent compared to the tier 8+ of the Khaba line. In the Grozovoi line, the Udaloi plays the same as Tashkent, the other 2 play more like Minsk, and they have 10 km torps.

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high tier is much more dangerous place for DD.  radar, hydro, other DDs and high DPM makes any mistake a big problem.    beginning part of battle is all about scouting and learning where the enemies are.  keep wide berth to island and such that you can see the enemy before they see you.   if there is yugumo div, you have to be careful since they will get first shot (due to their great conceal) 

don't yolo into cap at the beginning and always think ahead.  

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Do these THREE things and you'll be fine in high tier games...

  • Always be mindful of where the radar cruisers are and stay 10+ km away.
  • If you cap, always go in there, turn and point away from the cap towards your allies.
  • NEVER fire your guns unless you know you (and your buddies) can kill him in 20~30 secs.

Your job is not to be a hero. Your job is to stay unspotted, STAY ALIVE and spot things so others can kill them. Torping a BB or killing stuff in general should be incidental to the primary mission not compromise it. This is especially true when you are bottom tier in a high tier game.

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One piece of condolence: the Akatsuki is a straight up downgrade from the Fubuki. Don't feel bad if you don't do well in it - it's one of those "paywall"-style blocks that happen in various tech trees, where all you can do it grind through the painful experience.  You can adjust your playstyle a bit to compensate, but you'll want to go right back to the Fubuki playstyle when you get to the Kagero, Yugumo, and even Shima.

The Shiratsuyu is a little odd, but you can certainly make it work very well if you play it similar to a Fubuki - in fact, one of the joys of the Shiratsuyu is that once you get comfortable in it, going on to learn how to go smokeless and use the TRB ability is a whole lot of fun. Not to mention it can teach you a lot more about positioning that you'll be needing on the much bigger maps being played at T8+.

The Maass, on the other hand, is a big upgrade from the Gaede, and a great introduction to the fun that German DDs will be from there on out.

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13 minutes ago, EAnybody said:

One piece of condolence: the Akatsuki is a straight up downgrade from the Fubuki. Don't feel bad if you don't do well in it - it's one of those "paywall"-style blocks that happen in various tech trees, where all you can do it grind through the painful experience.  You can adjust your playstyle a bit to compensate, but you'll want to go right back to the Fubuki playstyle when you get to the Kagero, Yugumo, and even Shima.

The Shiratsuyu is a little odd, but you can certainly make it work very well if you play it similar to a Fubuki - in fact, one of the joys of the Shiratsuyu is that once you get comfortable in it, going on to learn how to go smokeless and use the TRB ability is a whole lot of fun. Not to mention it can teach you a lot more about positioning that you'll be needing on the much bigger maps being played at T8+.

The Maass, on the other hand, is a big upgrade from the Gaede, and a great introduction to the fun that German DDs will be from there on out.

The Akatsuki actually play similar to Shimakaze. Fast, 3 launchers, relatively large detection for IJN DD (tho Akatsuki is much worse)

I'll say if you don't like Akatsuki, you may not like Shimakaze at T10....better off just stop at T9 Yugumo

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I remembered back in the year, when I am still a noob, playing and I was like WTH .... and then suddenly everyone shooting at me ...... it get very bad and very frustrated. So I dig deeper into game mechanic and start researching hard, I found out that apart from the above mentioned, that other ships had radar that can detect me, then good CV player who had his planes circle above my dd most of the time and constantly keep me spotted, I had cruiser chasing me and not letting me get within range to torp bb

So what I did are: learn other nation ships high tier characteristic, especially the one that could have radar, then I learn their detection range, so that I can torp more comfortably. I learn how to dis engagement and re positioning. I learn to stay absolute silent until I lunch full torp salvo, I learn to turn and run and use smoke/speed boost when needed, I learn to re spec my ship, and I re skill my skills, I also re do my play style a little. I learn at the beginning of game start, check the red team ships to see if they had radar ship and will avoid them in game or spot and get those ship focus fire. Then the new smoke mechanic and the detection fire within smoke came out, so I twisted the skills again a little

 

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Akatsuki is actually a fun ship.

Advantages:

  • Fast at 38 kts, and fairly maneuverable
  • 3 x 3 torpedo tubes.  Gives flexibility to launch 3 at the target, 3 ahead of it, and 3 behind its line of travel, in case it slows down or backs up.  They also reload fairly quickly, so you can spam them, if not quite to the same extent as lower tier DDs.
  • The guns actually have a decent amount of punch, and they are fairly accurate.

Disadvantages:

  • Detection range:  The lowest it can go is 6.4 km.
  • Guns:  They rotate and fire slowly for DD guns.

How to work around your advantages and disadvantages:

  • Don't go charging straight into caps.  Everything that's likely to be in there with you early in the match can out-spot you.  There is also quite a bit of hydro and radar.  Instead, hover just outside the caps and look for targets of opportunity.  You can always go grab caps in the late game, but only if you're still around.  The speed helps with this, since you can get to them fairly quickly once your team is at the mopping up stage.  If it's the other team doing the mopping up, maybe you can sneak around to a cap they thought was secured, and therefore left unguarded.
  • Your guns are a back-up weapon.  Have them rotated to the direction you think you might have to fire, just in case.  But don't deliberately get into gun duels with other DDs or cruisers, unless:
    • You are finishing off a cripple
    • You are about to go to cover behind an island after 1-2 salvoes
    • They spotted you already anyway.  But in this case, be prepared to stop firing as you open the range, so you can maybe get your stealth back.

In short, don't give up on it.  I've got Yugumo, which to me is just something I have to grind through to get Shimakaze, but I kept Akatzuki for fun.  The only other  DDs I've kept after moving up to tier 10 are Fletcher and V-170.

Edited by zubalkabir

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Thanks for the advice. I've been implementing a lot of these tips into my gameplay, and using divisions any time I play. Having a division to work with is making me a better player.

Other than the Russian DDs, I'm at least semi-competent in any of the ships I have. The Mahan is a beast with the upgraded torpedoes, the Benson looks even more fun. Akatsuki feels a bit more challenging against higher tiers, but it does fit the fleet scout role about as well as its predecessor. I went smokeless in the Shiratsuyu, it's weirdly more fun than the Hatsuharu. I've racked up a hell of a lot of damage in it with TRB, even though I wish I had smoke with TRB. The Maaß feels like the best-balanced DD yet, with the guns and torps to do almost anything I need from it.

I did finally get the Minsk ... whoever decided to give it ultra-short-range torps and IJN-speed gun mounts needs to be beaten with a rubber hose. The guns are great, but it out-turns its guns even at long range. Not to mention that it turns like a drunk hobo. The speed is great, but that is the only good thing about it next to the flat gun arcs. This boat is unequivocally the worst DD I've played so far. A few of you have said that the T8s are where the Russian DDs are fun to play, but I am going to complain every step of the way to getting the Ognevoi and Kiev.

I also got a bit drunk the other night and accidentally bought a Leningrad after I returned home from the pub. Haven't played it yet, been meaning to get around to it. She looks like a fundamentally better ship over the Minsk, but I'm waiting to make a judgment until I actually get some time in it.

Is it just me, or does it look like WG arranged the upgrade slots to pull people up to T8? Especially for DDs and the concealment module option. Once you get into matches fighting T8s and T9s, getting your face handed to you by an enemy DD you never even saw in game after game. So you go to the wiki, do some research, and realize they all have an advantage over you for concealment with stacked-up concealment buffs (camo, concealment expert, and the concealment module). It's a sneaky trick, but it works.

Edited by Red_Hammer_Fleet
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At Tier VII and higher, anticipation is much more important. You can't react to known ships or even only launch torps at sighted ships, you have to anticipate what ships will go where and were they will likely appear, and have a plan for the appearance of ships. You'll still get slaughtered sometimes, whole team goes one cap and you get chained radar and 8 ships shooting at you, you will die.

That said, think about what the other ships will be doing, and anticipate their actions, that's the key for DD play at higher levels. Seriously, half or more of my kills are blind shots, and yet my torpedo hit is 10%.

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