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Trollphoon

CVs - why we cannot constantly give fighter cover

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I was in my Saipan the other day, up against a Kaga (which is, by the way, the least favourable opponent of a Saipan at tier 7).

In contrary to what I had requested in chat, the team absolutely spread out like a bunch of locusts on a cornfield, while the enemy team deathballed. Both flanks simultaneously demanded air support, while a north Carolina (which I was sticking close to for AA due to Kaga's huge sniping threat) called me noob within 30 seconds of the match, likely because he didn't understand why I needed to stay close. 

Not being able to attack the deathball for obvious reasons, I went for a cross drop on the nearest DD (which had already killed our only DD on the team) to help a RN cruiser take a cap, but needed my fighters to eliminate the enemy fighter cover or prevent them from interfering with the torpedo run. The entire chat went into a rage when I had to pull fighter support from both flanks to support my bomb run. 

Subsequently - I kill the DD with a beautiful dev-strike cross drop, but since the Kaga knew where my fighters were, one flank was being DB spotted and being shot at, while the other flank was subjected to a double torpedo wave attack resulting in a BB sailing alone being nuked. 

Obviously, no acknowledgement from the team that I had wiped out the second-greatest threat on the enemy team after their Kaga. Instead, the hate and rage about lack of fighter cover for ships spread out 30km from each other was a much more entertaining topic in chat. 

I want to point out that (since I had no dive bombers) my fighters were needed for:

1. Providing fighter cover for key friendly ships that require spotting or concealment (e.g. smoke-firing ships like Edinburgh or Kutuzov) in the absence of destroyers

2. Defending my bombers in an attack run

3. Killing enemy fighters

4. Killing enemy bombers

5. Killing enemy spotter aircraft

6. Spotting low health enemies at the back of the enemy that are likely otherwise concealed so our BBs can finish them off 

7. Cover a BB sailing alone

8. Cover another BB sailing alone

9. Cover YET ANOTHER BB sailing alone

I had TWO fighters that needed to do NINE things! 

Ended up hard carrying and winning the game on points, but I think I got reported somewhere being 2 and 4 times that game (depending on the compliments due), but I had a net loss in karma. 

My message to any non-cv player who cares to read this:

1., Even with an OP ship like Saipan, please do not take fighter cover for granted.

2. If you play like crap, do not blame your CV for your own mistakes.

3. Fighters are a very on-demand and limited resource. Be happy even if some are sent your way. 

4. Help you CV by sticking together for AA. If you can't help your CV like that, why should you expect help in return?

Edited by Trollphoon
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Simple answer, don't bring a CV and never get reported...APOC is a quality Clan, 246 battles is a shut up and play more statistic.

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I'm not a CV player, but I do appreciate that CVs have lots of things demanding their limited resources (planes) all at once. Hope this helps other players to understand.

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Why reroll? Do you really care that much about hiding your old games?

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We/I understand problematics so please dont worry. May I still accuse you when Iii am dumb enough? Feels much better when someone else is responsible for my poor performance? Please? 

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26 minutes ago, Sweetsie said:

Simple answer, don't bring a CV and never get reported...APOC is a quality Clan, 246 battles is a shut up and play more statistic.

 

11 minutes ago, Fog_Battleship_NCarolina said:

Why reroll? Do you really care that much about hiding your old games?

I am from the SEA server, new to NA. Can't not reroll, mate. 

I have this in bright colours in my signature, how did you not see this lol. 

Go take a look:

NA IGN: Trollphoon 
SEA IGN: LordTyphoon Link

Edited by Trollphoon
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So you are asking for a team to actually work together? I haven't seen that in over 8000 battles.

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19 minutes ago, Trollphoon said:

I was in my Saipan the other day, up against a Kaga (which is, by the way, the least favourable opponent of a Saipan at tier 7).

Really?  You find Kaga with it's low supply of T6 fighters more problematic than 3/1/2 Hiryu or 3/0/1 Saipan?

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5 minutes ago, Ramsalot said:

Really?  You find Kaga with it's low supply of T6 fighters more problematic than 3/1/2 Hiryu or 3/0/1 Saipan?

In terms of influence on the game. 

Saipan can't delete ships like a Kaga can. Even if Kaga loses the air war, the huge TBD reserve of Kaga can screw over an enemy team hard. 

Not to mention in a 1vs1 click dogfight, the Kaga's squad will beat Saipan's squad provided dogfighting expert is equipped. 

Never measure CVs in a CV vs CV way - measure them in how they impact the rest of the battle. Saipan is almost always comparatively less influential than Kaga. Although Saipan is easier to play, it needs to work twice as hard to impact the game as much as a Kaga. 

Edited by Trollphoon
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Ahoy Trollphoon!  It's nice to see you active in the NA forums!

Your post is interesting, but honestly, it's not going to make a difference.  Players unhappy that the cv isn't personally guarding them are not likely to be reading the forums.

In my experience, I've found the reports for playing poorly, though, to be much more common on SEA than NA.  However, rarely would you get raging in chat on SEA about cv play, where it is quite often, and sometimes colorful, on NA.

Just play your best game, and go for the win.  (After all, karma can't go below zero!)

 

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2 minutes ago, Trollphoon said:

In terms of influence on the game. 

Saipan can't delete ships like a Kaga can. Even if Kaga loses the air war, the huge TBD reserve of Kaga can screw over an enemy team hard. 

Not to mention in a 1vs1 click dogfight, the Kaga's squad will beat Saipan's squad provided dogfighting expert is equipped. 

Good Saipan player will never commit to "1vs1 click dogfight" and will use speed advantage to setup strafes.  Even if for one instant Kaga player manages to lock your fighters up, you can always strafe out without penalty and immediately strafe Kaga squadron with your secondary squadron.  Kaga stands no chance in the air, and you can still deal with it's TBs if you play your planes right.

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1 minute ago, Ramsalot said:

Good Saipan player will never commit to "1vs1 click dogfight" and will use speed advantage to setup strafes.  Even if for one instant Kaga player manages to lock your fighters up, you can always strafe out without penalty and immediately strafe Kaga squadron with your secondary squadron.  Kaga stands no chance in the air, and you can still deal with it's TBs if you play your planes right.

aware of this :)

My point being, two saipan fighters occupied in a strafe/locked battle, meanwhile the two Kaga torpedo bombers are somewhere else deleting green stuff...

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16 hours ago, Trollphoon said:

My message to any non-cv player who cares to read this:

1., Even with an OP ship like Saipan, please do not take fighter cover for granted.

 

If you can't handle these responsibilities, don't play the ship. That simple. You call down a CV on your teammates whenever you get in a CV, and many of us do not want to eat damage because someone brought one of those game-ruining cancer parasites. 
 

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2 minutes ago, Trollphoon said:

aware of this :)

My point being, two saipan fighters occupied in a strafe/locked battle, meanwhile the two Kaga torpedo bombers are somewhere else deleting green stuff...

I just find it ironic that while you think that Kaga is least favorite opponent for Saipan, it stands without question that Saipan is least favorite opponent for Kaga.  Good Hiryu can give Kaga run for it's money, but it's Saipan that is always there to ruin your day.  When I face good Saipan player, I can still get away with number of strikes by mid game, at which point I am totally out of fighters, and in the end game Saipan can control the air well enough to counter my strike attempts.

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11 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

If you can't handle these responsibilities, don't play the ship. That simple. You call down a CV on your teammates whenever you get in a CV, and many of us do not want to eat damage because someone brought one of those game-ruining cancer parasites. 
 

Either you are trolling, or your post reflects a severe lack of understanding of the game. I've seen your posts elsewhere regarding CVs and to be honest I don't really care for your opinion and I dont think many others do. 

 

9 minutes ago, Ramsalot said:

I just find it ironic that while you think that Kaga is least favorite opponent for Saipan, it stands without question that Saipan is least favorite opponent for Kaga.  Good Hiryu can give Kaga run for it's money, but it's Saipan that is always there to ruin your day.  When I face good Saipan player, I can still get away with number of strikes by mid game, at which point I am totally out of fighters, and in the end game Saipan can control the air well enough to counter my strike attempts.

I haven't seen your gameplay, but all a Kaga needs to do is hold - not push and engage the Saipan fighters. You shouldn't be running out of fighters in the Kaga, its hangar isn't that small. As long as a Kaga has fighters left its torpedo bombers will continue to be a massive menace to the enemy team. 

I think the Graf Zep is supposed to play a little bit like that too - use fighters to hold, bombers to find the entry points to then engage unmolested. 

And (theoretically, of course) I would presume that from sacrificing 2-3 flights of fighters, you managed to get in 2 or 3 clean torpedo bombers trikes in, which means you would have crippled or deleted 3 ships already. Saipan can't even hope to influence the game like this consistently. 

But I'm glad to see there is another contributor to this thread who actually plays with strategy :fish_cute_2:

Edited by Trollphoon
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15 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

If you can't handle these responsibilities, don't play the ship. That simple. You call down a CV on your teammates whenever you get in a CV, and many of us do not want to eat damage because someone brought one of those game-ruining cancer parasites. 
 

And many more players, like myself, find your histrionics on the topic baffling.

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16 minutes ago, Trollphoon said:

I haven't seen your gameplay, but all a Kaga needs to do is hold - not push and engage the Saipan fighters. You shouldn't be running out of fighters in the Kaga, its hangar isn't that small. As long as a Kaga has fighters left its torpedo bombers will continue to be a massive menace to the enemy team. 

I think the Graf Zep is supposed to play a little bit like that too - use fighters to hold, bombers to find the entry points to then engage unmolested. 

But I'm glad to see there is another contributor to this thread who actually plays with strategy :fish_cute_2:

Well, "hold" sounds very promising but let me show you what I am dealing with.

First I use my fighters to scout out caps and approaches to caps, trying to get an early spot on hostile DDs.  While my fighters are doing their initial scout run, my strike craft is getting into forward position.  Usually by the time I spot my first enemy ships, hungry Saipan fighters are already on the prowl, and getting close to my own fighters.  Sending my strike groups in right away is a poor choice, not until I tied up Saipan fighters.  So I can "A" try to lure Saipan fighters out of position and into friendly AA - this only works on newbie Saipan players (if that happens I might as well try to snipe their CV).  "B" is to engage Saipan fighters in the open, with the goal of keeping Saipan attention long enough to unload my strike craft on VIP target - such as DD attempting to cap, or radar cruiser that is setting up shop right next to the cap.  "A" almost never works.  "B" means I successfully strike enemy ship at the cost of losing both of my fighters squadrons.  So, essentially, when I play vs good Saipan, I will lose fighters each time I try to cover my strike craft, which also means that by the mid game I will have run out of fighters.

<EDIT> Of course I dont just send my fighters to die.  I try to strafe in, and keep my second squadron away, hoping to get lock down on his fighters so I can strafe with my other squadron, but good CV players see this kindergarden stuff a mile away.  Saipan will counter strafe to melt my face off, so my squadrons are as good as dead, even when I play smart - its just buying precious time for my bombers.

Edited by Ramsalot

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28 minutes ago, Sovereigndawg said:

So you are asking for a team to actually work together? I haven't seen that in over 8000 battles.

I have seen it, lol my luck can swing wildly since I can see highly coordinated teams that work together, or a team with team killers that wipe out half the team and everything in between as far as team quality goes.

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3 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

I have seen it, lol my luck can swing wildly since I can see highly coordinated teams that work together, or a team with team killers that wipe out half the team and everything in between as far as team quality goes.

I have seen it where most of the team works together but there is always at least one player, well you know. I was exaggerating a bit.

Edited by Sovereigndawg

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Just now, Sovereigndawg said:

I have seen it where most of the team works together but there is always at least one player, well you know. I was exaggerating a bit.

Yeah it can be rare on some days, like today between the teams, RNG, and the randomly placed game crashes it's not been a good day at all for me. Guess I kind of deserve it though since been doing really well for a while.

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10 minutes ago, Ramsalot said:

Well, "hold" sounds very promising but let me show you what I am dealing with.

First I use my fighters to scout out caps and approaches to caps, trying to get an early spot on hostile DDs.  While my fighters are doing their initial scout run, my strike craft is getting into forward position.  Usually by the time I spot my first enemy ships, hungry Saipan fighters are already on the prowl, and getting close to my own fighters.  Sending my strike groups in right away is a poor choice, not until I tied up Saipan fighters.  So I can "A" try to lure Saipan fighters out of position and into friendly AA - this only works on newbie Saipan players (if that happens I might as well try to snipe their CV).  "B" is to engage Saipan fighters in the open, with the goal of keeping Saipan attention long enough to unload my strike craft on VIP target - such as DD attempting to cap, or radar cruiser that is setting up shop right next to the cap.  "A" almost never works.  "B" means I successfully strike enemy ship at the cost of losing both of my fighters squadrons.  So, essentially, when I play vs good Saipan, I will lose fighters each time I try to cover my strike craft, which also means that by the mid game I will have run out of fighters.

<EDIT> Of course I dont just send my fighters to die.  I try to strafe in, and keep my second squadron away, hoping to get lock down on his fighters so I can strafe with my other squadron, but good CV players see this kindergarden stuff a mile away.  Saipan will counter strife to melt my face off, so my squadrons are as good as dead, even when I play smart - its just buying precious time for my bombers.

This is exactly why the Saipan is broken - it should not have pockets this deep so that it has so much fighter squadrons left even after you've done reasonably well to fight him. But then again - playing against a Saipan when you are not a Saipan is always supposed to be and feel like an uphill struggle. 

But I am reading a lot about fighters here - how about your strike planes? Like i said, if you bought yourself enough time to get off two or three murderous torpedo bomb runs, then you should be satisfied you have done you job well, especially if you butchered a DD or two along the way. 

Edited by Trollphoon

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3 minutes ago, Trollphoon said:

This is exactly why the Saipan is broken - it should not have pockets this deep so that it has so much fighter squadrons left even after you've done reasonably well to fight him. But then again - playing against a Saipan when you are not a Saipan is always supposed to be and feel like an uphill struggle. 

But I am reading a lot about fighters here - how about your strike planes? Like i said, if you bought yourself enough time to get off two or three murderous torpedo bomb runs, then you should be satisfied you have done you job well, especially if you butchered a DD or two along the way. 

Yes, I am totally banking on making the difference in the game opening.  If I cripple 2-3 important targets (and not that border hugging Fuso genius), it might as well shift the odds into our team favor, and very often it does.  But then, there are divisions like Saipan/Kutuzov/Kidd that play in coordinated team.  I might as well go afk when that happens.

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Just now, Ramsalot said:

Yes, I am totally banking on making the difference in the game opening.  If I cripple 2-3 important targets (and not that border hugging Fuso genius), it might as well shift the odds into our team favor, and very often it does.  But then, there are divisions like Saipan/Kutuzov/Kidd that play in coordinated team.  I might as well go afk when that happens.

Exactly, then you have done your job well. 

As for the w*nker divisions, I will laugh at them and report them if they lose because that kind of division is just an unpleasant experience for the opposing CV, and WG should prevent divisions like that from loading in. 

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Back at launch when CVs were actually an almost every match occurrence, when some of them used to be far stronger than they are now (2 TB Midway with jets, Tier V+ IJN CVs with 3 TBs, Hiryu and Shokaku Strike Spec 0/3/3, etc), when there was no CV Mirroring for MM (your team may not have a CV while the enemy team did;  Not only could you as a CV face an opposing CV, but you may not even be the same tier, i.e. CV on your team is Tier VI while the opposing CV was a Tier VIII)... People used to be smarter with their sailing and stayed in groups for mutual AA.  USN AA Cruisers like Cleveland, Atlanta were highly prized team ships because of their AA.

 

With the decline in CV population, the playerbase had gotten a lot more sloppy about how to sail in a CV match.  The AA has grown a lot since launch, but people sail more stupidly in a CV match now.

 

You can't cover them all as a CV so you have to do a "Triage" of sorts with your fighter power.  Not everyone deserves to be saved, not everyone can be saved.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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2 hours ago, Ramsalot said:

Well, "hold" sounds very promising but let me show you what I am dealing with.

First I use my fighters to scout out caps and approaches to caps, trying to get an early spot on hostile DDs.  While my fighters are doing their initial scout run, my strike craft is getting into forward position.  Usually by the time I spot my first enemy ships, hungry Saipan fighters are already on the prowl, and getting close to my own fighters.  Sending my strike groups in right away is a poor choice, not until I tied up Saipan fighters.  So I can "A" try to lure Saipan fighters out of position and into friendly AA - this only works on newbie Saipan players (if that happens I might as well try to snipe their CV).  "B" is to engage Saipan fighters in the open, with the goal of keeping Saipan attention long enough to unload my strike craft on VIP target - such as DD attempting to cap, or radar cruiser that is setting up shop right next to the cap.  "A" almost never works.  "B" means I successfully strike enemy ship at the cost of losing both of my fighters squadrons.  So, essentially, when I play vs good Saipan, I will lose fighters each time I try to cover my strike craft, which also means that by the mid game I will have run out of fighters.

<EDIT> Of course I dont just send my fighters to die.  I try to strafe in, and keep my second squadron away, hoping to get lock down on his fighters so I can strafe with my other squadron, but good CV players see this kindergarden stuff a mile away.  Saipan will counter strafe to melt my face off, so my squadrons are as good as dead, even when I play smart - its just buying precious time for my bombers.

Remember when a friendly Ranger got killed by bad positioning when I was in my Ryujo. The enemies had an Independence and a (good, or at least competent) Saipan...

 

...

 

... fun.

Edited by GabeTheDespot

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