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BullpupWOT

Killed by invisible BB question:

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So I got deleted in one salvo by a Bismark over the weekend.  I was kiting away (in my Cleveland) from other contacts that were visible on the map and actually doing some "essing" as I travelled and wham, game over. He never became visible on the map.

The question in my mind is:. When I fire shots in my Cruisers, my detection ring extends out to my max firing range. The only time I stay dark is with hard cover. I've been killed by BBs numerous times where they never light up. Is it automatically the case that they must have been behind cover?  I mean, in this particular instance, there were friendlies even closer to him than I that would surely be able to detect him. Do the BB detect rings not extend out to their max firing range?  

 

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No one had line of sight on him.  Happens more often at higher tier due to the range they have.  

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13 minutes ago, BullpupWOT said:

Do the BB detect rings not extend out to their max firing range?

Yes they do extend to max firing range. The simple answer to your question is that either the BB was firing from smoke (limited firing detection range) or as stated, nobody had line of sight on the shooter.

Both are normal game mechanics and is nothing out of the ordinary.

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There was some sort of cover between him and everyone else in his range, which can happen quite often. Firing from within smoke also reduces the range (although not a lot for battleships)

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It's okay for battleships to delete ships without being spotted, but when a cruiser or destroyer does the same thing it's bedlam

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Just now, _Big_Lou_ said:

Yes they do extend to max firing range. The simple answer to your question is that either the BB was firing from smoke (limited firing detection range) or as stated, nobody had line of sight on the shooter.

Both are normal game mechanics and is nothing out of the ordinary.

Thanks...I get that it's a normal mechanic. I'm just trying to understand it better. All of my bad games have one thing in common...I can't get close enough to get my guns in the game w/o getting a 2-4 targeted number and having to kite or maneuver taking my guns further from the action. I very often take the invisible citadel salvo while I'm doing this. I'm often with other ships. I'm often not the furthest ship forward (I used to be but am getting better at not yoloing).

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15 minutes ago, BullpupWOT said:

I can't get close enough to get my guns in the game w/o getting a 2-4 targeted number and having to kite or maneuver taking my guns further from the action. I very often take the invisible citadel salvo while I'm doing this.

As a general tactic: Turn, then fire. Meaning: if you are spotted and you start to make your turn to kite, everyone will be looking to land shots into your broadside. If you need to kite away, let yourself go dark and turn out before firing again.

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32 minutes ago, KiyoSenkan said:

It's okay for battleships to delete ships without being spotted, but when a cruiser or destroyer does the same thing it's bedlam

The difference is that for a BB to do it, they have to be at rather long range.  If they shoot from smoke and remain unspotted, it can only happen at long range because smoke only slightly reduces their gun bloom detection range increase.  And if they're shooting from behind cover, they usually have to be at long range to get the shells up and over whatever terrain is between them and their target, unlike cruisers and DDs which often have lower velocity, higher shell trajectory guns which can shoot over terrain and hit enemies at much  shorter ranges.

And on top of this, since the BB would be firing at longer range to remain unspotted, its accuracy would be commensurately lower, meaning that it wouldn't happen all that often.

In short, Kiyo, there's no reason to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

 

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3 minutes ago, Crucis said:

The difference is that for a BB to do it, they have to be at rather long range.  If they shoot from smoke and remain unspotted, it can only happen at long range because smoke only slightly reduces their gun bloom detection range increase.  And if they're shooting from behind cover, they usually have to be at long range to get the shells up and over whatever terrain is between them and their target, unlike cruisers and DDs which often have lower velocity, higher shell trajectory guns which can shoot over terrain and hit enemies at much  shorter ranges.

And on top of this, since the BB would be firing at longer range to remain unspotted, its accuracy would be commensurately lower, meaning that it wouldn't happen all that often.

In short, Kiyo, there's no reason to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

 

Basically, when bb are most useless to their team, they can shoot from stealth.

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4 minutes ago, Vaitmana said:

Basically, when bb are most useless to their team, they can shoot from stealth.

So that's why the stealth battleship build is the most widespread used build and also the most successful for win rate, damage, and kills?

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2 minutes ago, Vaitmana said:

Basically, when bb are most useless to their team, they can shoot from stealth.

Mostly, but not entirely, Vaitmana.  Some examples, early in some battles, I'll have long range shots in a high tier BB over at targets that won't spot me, and I'll always take them.  I rarely stay in that location to keep shooting because those targets were on the move themselves and the shots I did get were only a passing opportunity.

I did have a game 2-3 weeks back in my tier 7 KGV in a tier 9 battle where I was actually able to spend a good portion of the game firing from stealth, and I took advantage of it to have a great game.  It was on the Sea of Fortune map (IIRC) and I'd gone towards the A cap and there were a number of enemy ships kind of hanging around the are behind the A and B caps.  I was behind an island but able to get clean shots at these enemy ships that never left the area, so I never left cover and I kept hammering them and hammering them, for a good long time until they finally were forced to leave due to various reasons.  Normally, I'm not one to play the hiding, camping, sneaky sniper in a BB, but since I was bottom tier in a battle with 2-3 tier 9 BBs and so on, I didn't feel any compulsion to leave my good cover when I was constantly able to keep getting hits, damage, and fires on enemy BBs and Cruisers, and be a general pain.  But eventually, I did move out of cover when the battle moved away from me, and I pushed forward to keep the pressure on.  I was eventually sunk, but we won convincingly.  And I feel no shame in shooting from hard cover that situation. 

I don't think that it'd be a stretch to say that it was probably one of the only times I ever stay hidden behind cover in a BB while sniping for any long period of time, largely because I don't find it to be a situation that occurs all that often.  It's one thing to get 1-2 volleys off in a BB from behind a mountain, and quite another to be able to do it for minutes on end while remaining productive.

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@KiyoSenkanYou think stealth build allows bbs to shoot without being spotted? Go check game mechanics, stealth builds allow to get closer to CAs without getting spotted, not shoot from 24 km away without a line of sight to any enemy.

BBs hugging edges and shooting from max range can fire without being spotted, but are useless to their team for not tanking damage

Edited by Vaitmana

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1 minute ago, Crucis said:

Mostly, but not entirely, Vaitmana.  Some examples, early in some battles, I'll have long range shots in a high tier BB over at targets that won't spot me, and I'll always take them.  I rarely stay in that location to keep shooting because those targets were on the move themselves and the shots I did get were only a passing opportunity.

I did have a game 2-3 weeks back in my tier 7 KGV in a tier 9 battle where I was actually able to spend a good portion of the game firing from stealth, and I took advantage of it to have a great game.  It was on the Sea of Fortune map (IIRC) and I'd gone towards the A cap and there were a number of enemy ships kind of hanging around the are behind the A and B caps.  I was behind an island but able to get clean shots at these enemy ships that never left the area, so I never left cover and I kept hammering them and hammering them, for a good long time until they finally were forced to leave due to various reasons.  Normally, I'm not one to play the hiding, camping, sneaky sniper in a BB, but since I was bottom tier in a battle with 2-3 tier 9 BBs and so on, I didn't feel any compulsion to leave my good cover when I was constantly able to keep getting hits, damage, and fires on enemy BBs and Cruisers, and be a general pain.  But eventually, I did move out of cover when the battle moved away from me, and I pushed forward to keep the pressure on.  I was eventually sunk, but we won convincingly.  And I feel no shame in shooting from hard cover that situation. 

I don't think that it'd be a stretch to say that it was probably one of the only times I ever stay hidden behind cover in a BB while sniping for any long period of time, largely because I don't find it to be a situation that occurs all that often.  It's one thing to get 1-2 volleys off in a BB from behind a mountain, and quite another to be able to do it for minutes on end while remaining productive.

No, I agree about opportunity shots and there are always exceptions, I just hate coward bbs hugging edges and running away the moment they get their paint scratched

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2 minutes ago, Vaitmana said:

You think stealth build allows bbs to shoot without being spotted? Go check game mechanics, stealth builds allow to get closer to CAs without getting spotted, not shoot from 24 km away without a line of sight to any enemy.

BBs hugging edges and shooting from max range can fire without being spotted, but are useless to their team for not tanking damage

It depends on EXACTLY what one means by allowing BBs to shoot without being spotted.  If you mean that when they shoot, they're (usually) lit up to be seen, then yes you're entirely correct.  OTOH, a stealth build BB will let you stay unseen during an approach and get off a first shot unspotted.  It will also let them get reconcealed before their reload is complete, which gives them a chance to break contact or simply make some evasive maneuvers to make it more difficult for them to be hit before they fire again.

The fact is that BB stealth builds really aren't about remaining unseen while firing.  

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2 minutes ago, Crucis said:

It depends on EXACTLY what one means by allowing BBs to shoot without being spotted.  If you mean that when they shoot, they're (usually) lit up to be seen, then yes you're entirely correct.  OTOH, a stealth build BB will let you stay unseen during an approach and get off a first shot unspotted.  It will also let them get reconcealed before their reload is complete, which gives them a chance to break contact or simply make some evasive maneuvers to make it more difficult for them to be hit before they fire again.

The fact is that BB stealth builds really aren't about remaining unseen while firing.  

That is exactly what I meant, stealth builds allow bbs to operate closer to front lines, I use it on my bbs too.

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3 minutes ago, Vaitmana said:

No, I agree about opportunity shots and there are always exceptions, I just hate coward bbs hugging edges and running away the moment they get their paint scratched

Hate them all you want, but experienced BB players know that there are usually more gutless cruiser players who will abandon their BBs than the reverse.  There are many BB players who would be willing to hang in their against the enemy as long as their  cruisers would stay with them, even if they're behind the BBs providing supporting fire. 

But as a player who plays all ship types, if I'm in a slow USN BB you can bet your bottom dollar that I'm going to turn around if I think for a microsecond that my cruiser support will bail on me.  I've seen cruisers bail on a BB in engagements where the odds were completely even!!!  Like 1 BB and 2 CA's per side in that general engagement area.   Frankly, don't go complaining about BBs running when it's far more likely to be the cruisers bailing on the BBs.

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If I was home, I would post screens showing what I am talking about, I have a collection going :Smile_Default:

CAs and dds diying to enemy push, while bbs are searching a way to penetrate a map border.

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18 minutes ago, Vaitmana said:

If I was home, I would post screens showing what I am talking about, I have a collection going :Smile_Default:

CAs and dds diying to enemy push, while bbs are searching a way to penetrate a map border.

I don't care how many screenies you have of BBs running away from their CA's and DDs, I guaran-damn-tee you that the reverse happens much more often!

 

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42 minutes ago, KiyoSenkan said:

So that's why the stealth battleship build is the most widespread used build and also the most successful for win rate, damage, and kills?

No reason to even try with the BB defenders. They have been catered to by Wargaming for sooooo long it is crazy. The argument repeats itself almost daily, and they always get desperate which means trying to even argue realism. Then they fall flat on their face again to find that BBs have the most exaggerated accuracy from realistic values and historical recordings by a very large margin as well.

Best way to solve the glaring balance issues in this game includes nerfing BB sigma across the board for all nations and tiers by a nice chunk. This in effect does not hard nerf their max range but simply balances their accuracy.

Simplest way to shut down the BBaby?

Ask them to name a single game that encompasses "Burst damage, Sniper, Tank, and Brawler" all in the same Archetype.

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1 hour ago, KiyoSenkan said:

It's okay for battleships to delete ships without being spotted, but when a cruiser or destroyer does the same thing it's bedlam

I sit behind an island and sling HE all day in my DM while unspotted.  No one bats an eye at it when I burn down a full HP BB basically solo while having no counter play.  

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I liken the whole BB not supporting thing to when you're standing in a grocery store and you've talking to the person next to you and you look up from that butter you're thinking of buying and realize you've been talking to yourself...out loud.

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1 hour ago, brdhntr said:

No one had line of sight on him.  Happens more often at higher tier due to the range they have.  

line of sight? you mean blocked by island? but why sometimes island doesn't stop being detected?

so if only 2 ships left, if there's island between them, they can't see each other? regardless of range?

Edited by Happy668

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1 minute ago, Amenhir said:

I liken the whole BB not supporting thing to when you're standing in a grocery store and you've talking to the person next to you and you look up from that butter you're thinking of buying and realize you've been talking to yourself...out loud.

It's more like when the supermarket has 2 tellers open, 15 people in line, and 3 more employees are standing a dozen feet away engaged in a conversation instead of opening more checkout lanes.

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30 minutes ago, Vaitmana said:

If I was home, I would post screens showing what I am talking about, I have a collection going :Smile_Default:

CAs and dds diying to enemy push, while bbs are searching a way to penetrate a map border.

Which would only prove that the players doing it are the ones who CONSTANTLY do it, I never run to a border unless my flank fell apart and I need to get away, I have a collection also where DD's and CA's ask for support, I show up and the next thing I know I'm alone and focused , you people only thinking one class is doing it gmafb.. 

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Just now, KiyoSenkan said:

It's more like when the supermarket has 2 tellers open, 15 people in line, and 3 more employees are standing a dozen feet away engaged in a conversation instead of opening more checkout lanes.

I look at a lot of DD's and CA's as asking an employee for something and they walk away because it's not their department..

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