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Chrifister

Dive Bomber mechanics

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Sky cancer as its known. I remember the days of dropping torps feet from the target. The fixes WG has added has definitely worked out well. Since then I've been seeing a lot more unavoidable cross drops but they are harder to pull off and still not common enough to be an issue.

Now let's talk about Dive Bombers. Are they not the definition of point, click, and do damage? Where's the setup? Where's the player skill? An attack that's purely RNG based that cannot be purposely dodged by the victim. What can you do about it? Consider this last match:  

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BadMatchMaking.jpg 

So we have 3 strong AA ships on the enemy team. MM fail. Right off the bat I know this game is going to be difficult. We have an extra CA, they have an extra DD. Looks like I'll have to be aggressive with their DDs when I see them.

We held the West side with me being aggressive in the cap. Midway through the game our East side disappeared. We've been suffering non-stop attacks from the sky. DB's have taken half my HP. With 5 of us left and DB's purposely looking for me completely ignoring all of our ships because they can, I decide to try and take the center cap and then head East. Torp an Atlanta and take him out with AP. Torp the Bretagne and sink him. Force the La Gal to retreat. Life is good. Except for those pesky DB's. Start my sail East with enemy fighters hovering over me but AA too crappy to do anything about it. Of course there are more DB's coming again, and then again one last time which was too much and I'm sunk with 5 minutes left in the match. Now without a CV in the match, we could have challenged them on points.

The Atlanta and enemy CV alone pretty much took out our CV's planes. I'm not sure what happened in the sky but looking at the numbers I'd say their CV was attacking everybody while ours decided to hover over the Atlanta. The end result is I believe our CV ran out of planes. With 5 of us left, none of us AA platforms, and no friendly fighters in the sky, we're just sitting ducks for the enemy CV. Is that what they mean by fun and engaging?

Why is there no skill level for DB's? Why are they just point and click and hope RNG works in your favor? Why don't the planes instead have a more U shaped attack pattern where they would have to come in like the torpedo planes? I'd be all up for increasing the accuracy of the bombs in exchange for an actual attack run style setup. Just like sailing straight makes you easy to hit with torps, you would be easy to hit with DB then. For the victim, you could potentially dodge them all, or take the full brunt of every bomb in perfect drops. At least this would add both player skill in attacking and player skill in dodging and remove the RNG part. Right now all you can do is turn sideways and cross your fingers.

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Dive Bombers are RNG.  You can point, you can click a target, and they can miss.  You can send 2 squadrons to drop on someone, even a BB, and all the DBs can miss.  I can send Saipan's very large 9 plane DB unit and they will come back with zero hits.  I have to stress, when your bombers completely miss, that is a massive waste of lost bombers and more importantly, lost time.  Personally, I utterly despise my Dive Bombers and prefer Torpedo Bombers every hour, every day of the week.  DBs to me are filler aircraft slots so that CV drivers simply cannot slot only Fighter & Torp Bomber units.

 

If you want to run a forum campaign to get rid of dive bombers, I'll happily support you.  I'd rather those aircraft and aircraft reserves be used on fighter and torpedo bombers instead of useless DBs.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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What HazeGrayUnderway said.

In some ways it’s even worse in Co-op.

Your fighters and AA will murder the bot DBs, and only 1-2 will drop on you for damage and a fire; but your COMPLETELY INTACT squad will drop on a bot and get jack.

Edited by Estimated_Prophet

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But that's what I mean, they're completely RNG based. I don't mean they should be removed but instead reworked so their accuracy is determined more by skill of the player dropping them and skill of the player trying to dodge them. If they had an attack run of an elongated U shape with a very tightly focused bomb target area, you could potentially score anywhere from a complete miss if the victim dodges to almost every bomb hitting. Right now it's just point and click and hope for the best and that just seems silly. As you said, a filler aircraft. The long attack run is needed else we come to a point like when torps could be dropped feet from the hull very quickly, too overpowered. The attack run at least allows the victim to dodge, or if it's a nice setup like a beached target, allows the attacker to land every bomb if he comes in at the right angle.

I too have had ridiculous games where DB's have done devastating damage, especially to my Amagi in one particular game. On the flip side, I've also had many games where I've been attacked constantly and never had a bomb hit. In that match I spoke about, it was just inevitable that his DB's would sink me and there was nothing I could do about it. That just seems stupid. He knows it. I know it. Just keep sending them.

Seems a lot of things in this game are mostly RNG based.

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Well recently I was "victimized" by AP DBs 9x hits for 85-80% HP in my Tirpitz. First time on the receiving end of such a strike. 

As much RNG as DBs are, at least TBs can be mitigated by smart management of maneuvers. AP DBs might need their alpha scaled back a touch. At least with HE there's mitigation of Fire damage, through skills and Consumables.

Sure AP damage can be healed also, but my Tirpitz example was the First CV strike of the match. Could have I mitigated staying closer to combined AA? Definitely, but if there was no DFA CACLs nearby I could have still been hit with a large number of DBs still for like 50% HP.

Sure from the CV "flavour" side I understand the wants for stronger USN DBs since the IJN thing is TBs. But I'd probably prefer "AP DBs" have significantly less Alpha BUT were HE DBs with built-in IFHE and significantly less %Fire in exchange; but still a decent %Fire. 

Maybe a buff for MFCAA, a +5% "Panic" against targets that are Targeted IF spec'ed for MFCAA. While it wouldn't help a tonne it would help a tiny bit. At least against a Combined Strike, with multiple SQDs it would mean 1 of X squadrons is more likely to "shaken"

Or give the buff to TASM1, currently CSM1 buffs stealth AND +5% dispersion. Have TASM1 be a pseudo-AA module when an Air SQD is targeted. 

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There is skill in DB, the problem is not enough of an impact.  The best drop in the world can generate no hits, when an auto drop can hit a dodging target with half the bombs.  It makes no sense.  

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Well, with a few exceptions, there is a small amount of skill required to use dive bombers effectively. (the GZ Test requires none, and manual drops with Kaga can actually be a challenge)

Except for the Graf Zeppelin, the drop pattern for a dive bomber is an ellipse, with it's major axis along the line of flight of the dive bombers. If your defending against an automatic drop, best bet is to turn broadside to it, and skew RNG more in your favor by occupying less of the ellipse.

If you suspect it's a manual drop, turn broadside and chop the throttle when they start their bombing run. Easy in a DD, doable in most cruisers. Cutting speed doesn't help or hurt against auto drops.

We have dive bombers in game that take forever to drop their bombs, on the as released Graf Zeppelin's AP dive bombers. They sorta work for auto drops, provided they live through the AA (they hover in the point blank range AA bubble for 6 seconds) They are useless for manual drops, as they both hover over the target for 6 seconds, and need to lead the target by six seconds.

If your in a German battleship, too bad, you're pretty much driving the only thing US Navy AP bombs are effective against. If you're against a US Navy CV, your team's CV should know exactly where the AP dive bombers are going, and the cruisers should be around you going, "SEND MORE PLANES!!!!!" 

Now, if your talking the recent Graf Zeppelin Test's AP dive bombers, those no skill required, erase anything you want abominations shouldn't go live without making them more skill dependent. 

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9 hours ago, SgtBeltfed said:

Well, with a few exceptions, there is a small amount of skill required to use dive bombers effectively. (the GZ Test requires none, and manual drops with Kaga can actually be a challenge)

Except for the Graf Zeppelin, the drop pattern for a dive bomber is an ellipse, with it's major axis along the line of flight of the dive bombers. If your defending against an automatic drop, best bet is to turn broadside to it, and skew RNG more in your favor by occupying less of the ellipse.

If you suspect it's a manual drop, turn broadside and chop the throttle when they start their bombing run. Easy in a DD, doable in most cruisers. Cutting speed doesn't help or hurt against auto drops.

We have dive bombers in game that take forever to drop their bombs, on the as released Graf Zeppelin's AP dive bombers. They sorta work for auto drops, provided they live through the AA (they hover in the point blank range AA bubble for 6 seconds) They are useless for manual drops, as they both hover over the target for 6 seconds, and need to lead the target by six seconds.

If your in a German battleship, too bad, you're pretty much driving the only thing US Navy AP bombs are effective against. If you're against a US Navy CV, your team's CV should know exactly where the AP dive bombers are going, and the cruisers should be around you going, "SEND MORE PLANES!!!!!" 

Now, if your talking the recent Graf Zeppelin Test's AP dive bombers, those no skill required, erase anything you want abominations shouldn't go live without making them more skill dependent. 

While you are not wrong, there is an important piece missing from all this.  No matter what you do with the DB drop there is still ultimately RNG that decides the hit, even if you are literally PERFECT in the drop or dodge.  This is the problem people have with them, as TB you can mitigate the RNG to zero, but DB RNG at least always decides the hit.

 

 

For example, I once made a drop where the entire drop circle was inside the confines of the enemy ship, as in 100% of the drop circle coverage was the enemy ship and not a single pixel of water was inside the circle.  Yet the drop didn't hit for 100% of the bombs, only about 2/3 hit, very clearly splashes appeared from the water UNDERNEATH the enemy ship (not next to it, but from inside the ship) that indicated misses with bombs passing through the ship model and causing no damage, counting as a miss (this was confirmed post game stats screen as well).

 

Naturally I reported this as a bug and was informed that this is not a bug, and is working as intended, that each bombs still has a chance to miss even if it lands on the ship model.   

 

:Smile_amazed:

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In my opinion, there are only two problems with dive bombers right now, and they both involve USN. AP bombs need more of a difference between auto and manual, and pre 1k bombs need to have a smaller manual drop circle.

I think IJN dive bombers are in a good place. The manual drop circle is small enough to fairly reliably hit destroyers, and the bombs aren't strong enough to make that over powered.

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Personally, I wish they would remove the RNG component from them.
How would i change it?
Simple: Base it on movement . If you are trucking along (30kts+) there should be almost no chance to get the strike.
The reverse would also be true, going very slow (under 5kts) or stopped should be a 100% hit.
Have it variable as for hit ratio to speed would make this much cleaner.
It would also be nice if ship size calculated into it, but at least the speed component would add a bit more realism (yea i know its lacking in the game, but still).
Less RNG and more about skill is always a good thing (EG picking the right targets). Fire and forget and hope for the best isn't fun regardless.

Edited by xovian

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5 minutes ago, xovian said:

Personally, I wish they would remove the RNG component from them.
How would i change it?
Simple: Base it on movement . If you are trucking along (30kts+) there should be almost no chance to get the strike.
The reverse would also be true, going very slow (under 5kts) or stopped should be a 100% hit.
Have it variable as for hit ration to speed would make this much cleaner.
It would also be nice if ship size calculated into it, but at least the speed component would add a bit more realism (yea i know its lacking in the game, but still).
Less RNG and more about skill is always a good thing (EG picking the right targets). Fire and forget and hope for the best isn't fun regardless.

I'm not crazy about speed being the determinant for accuracy. If I know where you're going to be when my bombs hit the surface, and can put my bombs where I want them (which I assume I can, if I can hit a stationary target every time) then why can't I hit a moving target? Unless this was with regards to auto drops only.

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1 minute ago, cometguy said:

I'm not crazy about speed being the determinant for accuracy. If I know where you're going to be when my bombs hit the surface, and can put my bombs where I want them (which I assume I can, if I can hit a stationary target every time) then why can't I hit a moving target? Unless this was with regards to auto drops only.

Mainly auto drops, however, speed would make it where there would be a high skill ceiling to land against a moving target.
The faster something is, the harder it would be to hit them. Like I said size of a vessel should also play a part, but doubt that would be implemented due to "fairness".
It's just how "I'd" have built the mechanic. Hitting a moving DD vs hitting a station BB are very different scales, and even at the lowest end  of realism is easy to understand and "get", cause it makes sense. (Least to me, maybe it's just me though).

Not sure if the above sounded condescending or not, it isn't meant that way, my approach was simply to remove an RNG component and make it to where it would be something that people would say, "Yea, that makes sense", that it works that way.

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6 minutes ago, xovian said:

Mainly auto drops, however, speed would make it where there would be a high skill ceiling to land against a moving target.
The faster something is, the harder it would be to hit them. Like I said size of a vessel should also play a part, but doubt that would be implemented due to "fairness".
It's just how "I'd" have built the mechanic. Hitting a moving DD vs hitting a station BB are very different scales, and even at the lowest end  of realism is easy to understand and "get", cause it makes sense. (Least to me, maybe it's just me though).

Not sure if the above sounded condescending or not, it isn't meant that way, my approach was simply to remove an RNG component and make it to where it would be something that people would say, "Yea, that makes sense", that it works that way.

For auto drops, that would be fine, and probably more incentive for ship's to stay moving.

For manual drops, no way. If I manage to land a manual drop from a Kaga on a maneuvering DD, it needs to hit, instead of having an RNG chance to say sorry, all that work was useless, try again in 3 minutes. It's not easy to hit actual moving targets with manual dive bombers (US Navy standards hardly count as moving)

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14 minutes ago, SgtBeltfed said:

For auto drops, that would be fine, and probably more incentive for ship's to stay moving.

For manual drops, no way. If I manage to land a manual drop from a Kaga on a maneuvering DD, it needs to hit, instead of having an RNG chance to say sorry, all that work was useless, try again in 3 minutes. It's not easy to hit actual moving targets with manual dive bombers (US Navy standards hardly count as moving)

I'll try to explain it better in terms of the manual drops.
Like the auto drops, the point is to remove the RNG component. There's enough of it in game already.
But you also need to realize the lining up and manual dropping should have a high skill ceiling, especially on a DD that is not only moving erratically but changing speeds constantly to deflect incoming attacks.
The reliability for this shot being lined up should be hard in your above example..manual or not. You could spend all that time getting the perfect line up and they moved and changed speeds and you gotta wait those 3 minutes anyways, cause you missed.

Again, just how I'd do it. If you mastered the ability to line up such shots and you can still delete players, more power to ya.
I'd take my licks and probably even give a compliment if it landed (as i play DD mostly).
This would be a case of separating the good CV's from those that need more practice when it comes to manual drops.
Good CV's could still potentially delete players, but it wouldn't be a given, or guarantee.

Edited by xovian

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22 minutes ago, xovian said:

I'll try to explain it better in terms of the manual drops.
Like the auto drops, the point is to remove the RNG component. There's enough of it in game already.
But you also need to realize the lining up and manual dropping should have a high skill ceiling, especially on a DD that is not only moving erratically but changing speeds constantly to deflect incoming attacks.
The reliability for this shot being lined up should be hard in your above example..manual or not. You could spend all that time getting the perfect line up and they moved and changed speeds and you gotta wait those 3 minutes anyways, cause you missed.

Again, just how I'd do it. If you mastered the ability to line up such shots and you can still delete players, more power to ya.
I'd take my licks and probably even give a compliment if it landed (as i play DD mostly).
This would be a case of separating the good CV's from those that need more practice when it comes to manual drops.
Good CV's could still potentially delete players, but it wouldn't be a given, or guarantee.

For IJN manual drops, that's basically the way it is. The manual drop pattern is essentially the size and shape of a destroyer.

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4 minutes ago, cometguy said:

For IJN manual drops, that's basically the way it is. The manual drop pattern is essentially the size and shape of a destroyer.

My vision of it would be similar to how the torpedo planes are done, their is a line of focus that is used to aim, not just a flat AoE, these arent planes that are dropping 2tons worth of bombs. (No Stratofortresses here)
This is essentially a bombing run, which needs to line up the planes path of attack.

A bit hard to explain, the way i think it should work. Not a very realistic request as the coding would probably be too much of a pain, but still, something I'd have like to have seen with bombers.
Strafing runs and all.

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On 2/23/2018 at 11:34 AM, SyndicatedINC said:

While you are not wrong, there is an important piece missing from all this.  No matter what you do with the DB drop there is still ultimately RNG that decides the hit, even if you are literally PERFECT in the drop or dodge.  This is the problem people have with them, as TB you can mitigate the RNG to zero, but DB RNG at least always decides the hit.

For example, I once made a drop where the entire drop circle was inside the confines of the enemy ship, as in 100% of the drop circle coverage was the enemy ship and not a single pixel of water was inside the circle.  Yet the drop didn't hit for 100% of the bombs, only about 2/3 hit, very clearly splashes appeared from the water UNDERNEATH the enemy ship (not next to it, but from inside the ship) that indicated misses with bombs passing through the ship model and causing no damage, counting as a miss (this was confirmed post game stats screen as well).

Naturally I reported this as a bug and was informed that this is not a bug, and is working as intended, that each bombs still has a chance to miss even if it lands on the ship model.   

 

:Smile_amazed:

LoL figures. Like we joke about in the coding world: It's not a bug, it's a feature!

Obviously they intended DB to be RNG based and added the visuals later but don't care that the visuals don't make any sense.

The whole DB concept they created is just silly. Oh noes, DB incoming! Guess I'll turn broadside and completely forget about them cause there's nothing I can do! Half the time I don't even do that anymore. I just ignore them.

The game I mentioned above also highlights another silly concept about AA needing to be a certain rating to actually shoot down a plane. Since my AA was not strong enough and there were no other targets for me to reach before I was sunk or the game ended, I could have just set my ship to sail around in a circle and left to go make a sandwich. Would have resulted in the same outcome.

Some good suggestions guys. Good conversation.

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On 2/23/2018 at 12:56 AM, SyndicatedINC said:

There is skill in DB, the problem is not enough of an impact.  The best drop in the world can generate no hits, when an auto drop can hit a dodging target with half the bombs.  It makes no sense.  

Basically this. There's no consistency. A perfectly aimed manual drop is inaccurate enough to miss and a poorly aimed auto drop in a DF bubble can nuke someone. It's the worst of both worlds.

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How can you 'fix' dive bombers without making RNG even WORSE for the captain? Seriously, try taking out a indy and trying to manual drop on a DD or even a cruiser and watch all the bombs land ouside of the ship's hull. 

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18 minutes ago, TheNargacuga said:

How can you 'fix' dive bombers without making RNG even WORSE for the captain? Seriously, try taking out a indy and trying to manual drop on a DD or even a cruiser and watch all the bombs land ouside of the ship's hull. 

After learning how bombs always have a chance to miss, even if they "hit" the ship (ie land within the confines of the ship area), the idea I had was make the RNG percentage chance to hit roll for each bomb be based upon the percentage of the drop circle that is filled by ship surface.  

 

The easiest way to do this is instead of rolling to hit or miss, have each bomber's drop point plotted as a pixel within the drop circle at random.  The smaller the circle the tighter the spread, the larger the more wild they are.   Then if that drop point is covered by part of a ship then that part takes a bomb hit.  

 

Would be simple, logical, and most importantly to the players, intuitive.  

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The only problem with adding skill to anything in this game is that it widens the gap between skilled and non-skilled players. While this isn't the end of the world for other ships, we already complain about CV skill discrepancy basically pre-ordaining match results. Adding skill to CV play would only make it worse.

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