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BullpupWOT

The radar/hydro learning curve...Lol

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I bought the Aigle a few days ago. I only have 15 battles. I avoided all radar/hydro (by chance) in the first 11 battles. I've been radar/hydro snuffed in my smoke 3 of the last 4. Lol. I use PT, so I set up in an A cap with smoke in a tier 8 battle this morning. I saw the number 7 in my PT circle and then I saw a blinding flash of light with a voice saying, "walk toward the light my son".  I'm now officially afraid to smoke up in a cap...ha ha. 

Is it an evolution of DD play to not sit in smoke and stay moving altogether...or is it a situational art to learn?  My first temptation is to not smoke and sit anymore but rather smoke and move out or move out w/o smoking at all. 

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First thing to do is analyze the team line ups and ask yourself which ships have radar.

Second is to not invest yourself into a cap if you still don't know where the enemy with radar is.

Once you do find the location of those radar ships just make sure to keep your distance or be on the edge of the radar detection to easily escape them. 

Hydro can be a little more challenging but chances are if you let them get that close, you are already dead.

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You can only hang out in CAP with smoke if you have some island protection otherwise you will get smoked yourself in about 30 seconds.  If you smoke, take a couple potshots, and then scoot odds are Reds are out of torps and you have 45 secs of peace to stalk your next target.

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What Mrendeavour said. Be aware what has radar at the beginning of the battle. 

Never smoke up in a cap in a dd if you can help it. Always give yourself vision if you can. 

Stay at the edges of caps near islands that you can duck behind them if you need. 

Have your stern pointing into the cap so you can get out faster. 

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Simple stuff, you probably already know.  If you hang out in smoke move inside your smoke as much as possible, especially if you are firing your guns.  Don't set with your broadside to where you expect torps to come from.  Always have an escape planned ahead of time.  Be aware of how much time your smoke has left, be ready before it dissipates.  

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The biggest thing to remember is that radar has a range of approximately 9km in most cases. If you are going to contest a cap, you will need to:

  • Avoid getting close to an island that a radar cruiser (or Missouri) could be hiding behind.
  • Make sure that you have scouted the lines of approach to the cap for radar cruisers before popping smoke. Not always easy, but possible.
  • Remember that radar lasts about 30 seconds on average, so once you are lit you can move away and then return 30 seconds later in relative safety.

Hydro is different, since with the exception of high tier German ships the range is about 4.5km. If you're that close to a cruiser you're in trouble even without hydro. At higher tiers you can't usually get as close (even in smoke) as you could in lower tiers, the engagement ranges start to extend a bit. In DD's that means much more calculated and cautious game play, but not to the point where you're avoiding battle all together.

Edited by Jiggiwatt

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Smoking in the cap and sitting there is like TWO neon signs to sink you.

First if your not detected leave the smoke. while the other team shoots into it, your ok.

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The first thing you need to adapt to the play style at mid tier is knowledge of the game mechanics.  As everyone has pointed out you need to learn what ships have radar.  The good news is you can learn that in steps.  At tier 6 you only need to know what ships have radar at tiers 7&8.  Next learn the range, then duration.  The thing to do in the beginning is to write down that info and check team lineups at the start of each match and adjust you play style accordingly.  Here's a list of all the radar ships, https://imgur.com/J31OwO9  A thank you to Wulfgarn for the list. 

Good luck.

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Remember my first time playing a DD against a team with a radar cruiser. Ended pretty much the same way yours did. :Smile_teethhappy:

I only use my smokes to run away, cover for teammates while I continue on and spot, or if I know I can park and farm damage without getting torped.

But I learned the hard way to never do so in a cap at the start of a game at higher tiers -- you'll have to bug out if it's contested as they are torpedo magnets, you will get lit by radar, and you'll lose any vision you're providing for your team. 

Basically, 'tis better to defend the cap and live than try taking it and die.

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53 minutes ago, Ducky_shot said:

Have your stern pointing into the cap so you can get out faster. 

This is so important.

As a DD, always have an exit strategy in case things decide to turn sour.

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There are of course a few exceptions to smoking up in a cap. If I div with 2 dds. One can sit in smoke and fire at what the other one spots, but all other rules apply, don't sit broadside, have an exit plan, be aware where radar is, etc. 

The other exception is a hydro dd such as a lo yang or German dd. All the rules still apply. 

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Just now, Ducky_shot said:

There are of course a few exceptions to smoking up in a cap. If I div with 2 dds. One can sit in smoke and fire at what the other one spots, but all other rules apply, don't sit broadside, have an exit plan, be aware where radar is, etc. 

The other exception is a hydro dd such as a lo yang or German dd. All the rules still apply. 

Enemy had a Lo Yang (the ouch this morning battle).  

I learned about positioning in smoke after two quick torp walls to my broadsides in the Okhotnik early on. The hydro/radar was a new wrinkle the last couple of days that I hadn't been on the receiving end of yet. I've done it to others. 

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Lo Yang is the new Belfast (i.e., OP) - they should never have buffed the Lo Yang hydro.  If you are in a cap with an enemy Lo Yang in an Aigle, and you do not have either a friendly Lo Yang with you or 1-2 friendly radar cruisers right behind supporting, get out, now, while the getting is good.  You are not going to take that cap, period.

Aigle isn't a great capping DD to begin with - 6.8 detection with skills, bad handling.  Personally, especially if there is a radar threat on the other team, I prefer open caps with it when possible.  Radar cruisers (except Belfast) hate open caps, since once they fire on you they are sitting in the open with a lot of battleships looking at them.  It minimizes the chance of running into an island, while it maximizes one of the Aigle's strengths - raw speed to get out.  The downside is that most enemy DDs going to that cap will outspot you, but with less likelihood of support on either side, you can sometimes figure out what is against you and decide whether to press or bail.

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I often play DDs and I get detected by a radar all the time, I set the smoke at the outside near edge of the cap and then bailed from the radar cruiser very quickly.

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1 hour ago, MrEndeavour said:

First thing to do is analyze the team line ups and ask yourself which ships have radar.

Second is to not invest yourself into a cap if you still don't know where the enemy with radar is.

Once you do find the location of those radar ships just make sure to keep your distance or be on the edge of the radar detection to easily escape them. 

Hydro can be a little more challenging but chances are if you let them get that close, you are already dead.

Yeah this is most important....knowing which ships have radar and their range is a must, if you feel confident you can bait them into using it early. Remember not to smoke in an area that will block the sight of your own team mates so they have a possibility of spotting any reds. As Ducky stated, never broadside in smoke and have a way out. A mistake I make far too often is an unwillingness to give up the cap, so know when to "get outta dodge!"

DDs are faster than other boats and sometimes we end up too deep without support. If this is the case then an exit strategy is doubly important.

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When you contest for a cap you must have an exit strategy as soon as you get in the cap make sure there is an island closet to tuck behind or angle yourself so your nose is heading back out for a quick escape. Try to never use smoke while capping...ever. use it to cover a retreat. Also, while this takes practice, learn when to NOT SHOOT YOUR GUNS. So many people fire back and just keep themselves spotted for 20 more seconds....Just exit out of detection range and fight another day.

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1 hour ago, BullpupWOT said:

I bought the Aigle a few days ago. I only have 15 battles. I avoided all radar/hydro (by chance) in the first 11 battles. I've been radar/hydro snuffed in my smoke 3 of the last 4. Lol. I use PT, so I set up in an A cap with smoke in a tier 8 battle this morning. I saw the number 7 in my PT circle and then I saw a blinding flash of light with a voice saying, "walk toward the light my son".  I'm now officially afraid to smoke up in a cap...ha ha. 

Is it an evolution of DD play to not sit in smoke and stay moving altogether...or is it a situational art to learn?  My first temptation is to not smoke and sit anymore but rather smoke and move out or move out w/o smoking at all. 

Once you get to higher tier DD's 8+ Radar is a norm that you will need to get used to. 

and I am talking long radar, sometimes 56 seconds. 

 

Its important you identify which ships have radar at the start of the match and pay very close attention to them. 

 

Higher tier KM DD's have hydro

Higher tier PA DD's could have Radar. 

Higher tier USN CA's have radar starting at tier 8.

Higher tier VMF CA's  have radar starting at tier 8. 

German BB's have hydro at tier 8

German Cruisers have hydor at tier 8 

And the Missouri is pretty much in each match at higher tier, so that is a BB with radar. 

 

There are some I am sure I missed, however prepare yourself because higher tier is a radar love fest.

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1 hour ago, Jiggiwatt said:

The biggest thing to remember is that radar has a range of approximately 9km in most cases. If you are going to contest a cap, you will need to:

  • Avoid getting close to an island that a radar cruiser (or Missouri) could be hiding behind.
  • Make sure that you have scouted the lines of approach to the cap for radar cruisers before popping smoke. Not always easy, but possible.
  • Remember that radar lasts about 30 seconds on average, so once you are lit you can move away and then return 30 seconds later in relative safety.

Hydro is different, since with the exception of high tier German ships the range is about 4.5km. If you're that close to a cruiser you're in trouble even without hydro. At higher tiers you can't usually get as close (even in smoke) as you could in lower tiers, the engagement ranges start to extend a bit. In DD's that means much more calculated and cautious game play, but not to the point where you're avoiding battle all together.

This is somewhat incorrect.

 

Below tier 8 , yes that is correct. 

 

However at higher tier, that is good advice to get a ship sunk. 

 

Only the tier 8 NO has a radar range of 9km. 

 

Outside of that, every radar cruiser outside of NO at Tier 8+ has radar ranges exceeding that range to small and large degrees. 

 

Also , stating that radar on average lasts 30 seconds is somewhat incorrect as well. At higher tiers especially, this is hit and miss depending on who is using radar mods. 

 

Des moines radar with radar mod lasts  56 seconds. 

Baltimore with radar mod last 49 seconds

Moskva with radar mod lasts 35 seconds

Missouri radar lasts 35 seconds 

 

5LlsQZD.jpg

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Indianapolis is the only tier VII USN cruiser that has long range radar (about 9.90km), better range than Atlanta and Belfast. As she definitely poses an extreme threat to the DDs, depends on calculations.

Edited by Rulue

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2 hours ago, BullpupWOT said:

I bought the Aigle a few days ago. I only have 15 battles. I avoided all radar/hydro (by chance) in the first 11 battles. I've been radar/hydro snuffed in my smoke 3 of the last 4. Lol. I use PT, so I set up in an A cap with smoke in a tier 8 battle this morning. I saw the number 7 in my PT circle and then I saw a blinding flash of light with a voice saying, "walk toward the light my son".  I'm now officially afraid to smoke up in a cap...ha ha. 

Is it an evolution of DD play to not sit in smoke and stay moving altogether...or is it a situational art to learn?  My first temptation is to not smoke and sit anymore but rather smoke and move out or move out w/o smoking at all. 

You still messing around with the bots?

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3 minutes ago, Seadog_Supreme said:

You still messing around with the bots?

Here and there...not much. I'm gonna CV in bot land until I understand it and possibly forever, lol.  Now that I've made tier 5 in a number of lines, I'm not going to grind upgrades in coop anymore. 

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26 minutes ago, Cobraclutch said:

This is somewhat incorrect.

 

Fair enough, my only direct experience with radar ships is the New Orleans. Average distance appears to be about 10km then (without doing the math). As a general rule I will move out of range when lit, wait 30 seconds and then turn back in. I use the 9km distance as my "Don't get closer than" distance since anything closer and I'll be in range and lit by radar too long to reliably escape without losing too much hp. By the time I'm back in range, 60 seconds has usually passed.

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Just now, Jiggiwatt said:

Fair enough, my only direct experience with radar ships is the New Orleans. Average distance appears to be about 10km then (without doing the math). As a general rule I will move out of range when lit, wait 30 seconds and then turn back in. I use the 9km distance as my "Don't get closer than" distance since anything closer and I'll be in range and lit by radar too long to reliably escape without losing too much hp. By the time I'm back in range, 60 seconds has usually passed.

Yea i figured you were speaking more about a tier 8 < situation, which your advice is solid. 

 

You should see CW... just madness with radar being chained for close 2 minutes lol. 

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43 minutes ago, Lillehuntrix said:

Lo Yang is the new Belfast (i.e., OP) - they should never have buffed the Lo Yang hydro.  If you are in a cap with an enemy Lo Yang in an Aigle, and you do not have either a friendly Lo Yang with you or 1-2 friendly radar cruisers right behind supporting, get out, now, while the getting is good.  You are not going to take that cap, period.

Aigle isn't a great capping DD to begin with - 6.8 detection with skills, bad handling.  Personally, especially if there is a radar threat on the other team, I prefer open caps with it when possible.  Radar cruisers (except Belfast) hate open caps, since once they fire on you they are sitting in the open with a lot of battleships looking at them.  It minimizes the chance of running into an island, while it maximizes one of the Aigle's strengths - raw speed to get out.  The downside is that most enemy DDs going to that cap will outspot you, but with less likelihood of support on either side, you can sometimes figure out what is against you and decide whether to press or bail.

I'd say on Randoms that the lo yang is strong but not op. It honestly should not have gotten longer hydro range than the z23. But where it was op was in ranked. The meta is way more cap oriented and the lo yang is op at cap contesting

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With the amount of radar/hydro now available in ANY T7+ game, trying to sit in smoke, especially in a cap, is just begging for deletion.

The only sure fire way to defeat radar/hydro is to speed boost in the opposite direction of the radar/hydro ship. Wiggle your butt while doing so.

Russian radar is nothing to worry about. It only last 20-35 sec. depending on tier. You can easily escape from that.

U.S./BR radar is a whole other matter. You can potentially be lit up for almost a 1 minute. That's a lifetime (death time?) in a T10 match. All you can do is run or try to find cover.

Save your smoke for evading when visually detected or supporting the team.

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