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Kelorn

[Ship Review] Kelorn on Asashio [WiP]

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Legal type Disclaimer: Asashio is still under testing and is a work in progress. All stats are subject to change.

Opinion Disclaimer: I'm not the world's expert at DD's, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

 

I've been testing ships as a CC for almost a year now. We've seen a number of Premium destroyers over that time and honestly I rarely spend too much time in them. Kidd, in particular, was painful to play, as I didn't really get how that ship was supposed to work. So when Asashio dropped on to my account, the first iteration (no deepwater torps and basically a Kagero clone) made me think "There's nothing special about that ship, how much testing will I really need to do?"

Boy, was I in for a surprise.

The truth is really quite simple: Asashio with deepwater torpedos is fun to play. 


The Torpedoes

As the ship currently stands, Asashio carries Type 93 Mod 3 deepwater torpedoes (can only hit battleships and carriers) with a maximum range of 20km and a base speed of 67 knots. With the torpedo acceleration Captain skill (which I recommend) the range drops to 16km and the speed increases to a ludicrous 72 knots. 

To give you an idea of how deadly these torpedoes are, even after the upcoming nerf to their detection threshold, take a look at these reaction times (courtesy of LittleWhiteMouse):

Quote

So, the announced Asashio torpedo changes amount to this:  700m -> 900m detection range on torpedoes:
* For 67 knot torpedoes, reaction time increases from 3.89s to 5.00s
* For 72 knot torpedoes (you sick monkeys), reaction time increases from 3.62s to 4.65s.

Since we're going to assume that we're all sick monkeys here, you have 4.65 seconds to react to getting hit by torpedoes that do 20,966 damage each. This makes for a rough time for any battleships looking to evade taking massive damage. To give you an idea of how devastating this is, here are the reaction times for Shimakaze torpedoes (also courtesy of LWM):

Type 93 - 2.5km detection range,  15.02 seconds @62 knots, 13.89 seconds  @67 knots.
Type 93 mod 3 - 1.7km detection range, 9.45 seconds  @67 knots, 8.79 seconds  @72 knots.
Type F3 - 1.8km detection range, 8.82 seconds  @76 knots, 8.28 seconds  @81 knots.

Worst case, you have roughly half the time to react and avoid the torpedos compared to Shimakaze's torps. Only a third of the time, if the Shima is running the 20km torps.

So how many of these nasty fish can Asashio throw out? Well that's not an easy answer. She has a base reload time of 112 seconds, which is exactly the same as her sister-ship in the Tech tree, Kagero. With Torpedo Armament Expertise, this drops to 100.8 seconds. While Kagero must choose between Torpedo Reload Booster and a Smoke Generator, Asashio gets access to both modules, increasing her bag of tricks at the steep expense of no longer being able to hit Cruisers and Destroyers with torpedoes. Assuming you're using a premium consumable, you get 3 charges of TRB, increased to 4 with Superintendent. 

Courtesy of Yuzral, the formula for number of torpedoes launchable in a game = (trb charges + (1200 seconds - 8 seconds * trb charges) / torpedo reload time) * number of torpedo tubes

In the case of Asashio, this becomes (4 + (1200 - 8*4) / 100.8) * 8 = 120 torpedoes. That sounds like a lot, but it's really hard to get that many torpedoes out during a game. My personal best thus far has been 72 and that game felt like I was spamming torps like mad.

But how does this stack up versus other Tier 8+ Destroyers?

image.thumb.png.25a8eddc372235088c700cd3938dcceb.png

Note: Gold bars denote premium ships, black are tech tree

The answer is that she's surprisingly middle of the road in terms of pure torpedo throwing madness when compared against all Tier 8, 9 and 10 destroyers (who knew Tashkent could launch almost 200 torps in a game? Someone get me a replay of THAT!). But the good news is that she's tied for top of the Tier 8 pack with her sister, Kagero (assuming Kagero takes Torpedo Reload Booster).

However, this graph doesn't tell the whole story. Many of the entries on this graph are hamstrung by low range, low damage, or both. So let's look at how Asashio stacks up on Theoretical Max Damage.

image.thumb.png.6ec6add5681a14de07aef61afaae5ff7.png

Asashio and Kagero again stack up well against the other Tier 8-10 destroyers, and the Torpedo power of Shimakaze and Black are the creme de la creme. 

Now we have pretty graphs to confirm what we already knew, Asashio is a monster torpedo boat, but why is she so fun to play?

 

Concealment

image.thumb.png.d25f784755a69eac9dcdf2897b99b34d.png

This is where Asashio shines. She has the best (tied with Harekaze and Kagero) concealment of all the Tier 8+ Destroyers. Asashio outspots anything in her matchmaking spread, making her an evil intelligence gathering platform in the absence of carriers. Pair this with the ability to take smoke AND torpedo reload boost and Asashio starts to be able to do things like spot in the early game, cap in the mid/end game, and choose her fights at all times. You'll have 400 meters+ of buffer over most of your opposing destroyers, this doesn't seem like a lot, but its enough if you're careful about your early positioning and don't let yourself get into "head-on" closures. Save your speed boost to help you get out of tough situations, is my advice. 

 

Conclusion

As I mentioned earlier, Asashio is just plain fun to play. The controversy over the ship largely revolves around the assumption that Asashio captains will stick to the outside of the map and never help their team. Given her concealment and heavy torpedo armament (that can only hit battleships and carriers), there's no denying that she would excel at such a role. 

But she's good at SO much more than that. 

Early game, you're likely to see Asashio's on the flanks, vying for launch positions on the enemy battleship fleet, but what they're also doing is spotting all the cruisers (and sometimes destroyers) for the rest of their team to spot. Even if an Asashio never comes within a kilometer of a cap, this is an invaluable service to the team. 

Here's where things get tricky: Why shouldn't Asashio go for caps in the early game with that great concealment? The short answer is that she really can't. The long answer revolves around her guns, which the more astute of you have noticed that I have yet to mention. Per the World of Warships Dev blog, Asashio's guns will be getting a small rate of fire buff, but even with it she can't hope to fight another full health DD and live. Are her guns useless? 

Absolutely not

But they are situational. Her guns have a really nice Alpha damage punch, one that can and WILL surprise other Destroyers when you choose to fire. The key part of that sentence is "choose to fire". Because your concealment is so good, Asashio can disengage at will, disappearing into stealth and repositioning for a better angle. That said, you can (and I have) killed low health Gearings, Khabs, Cruisers, and battleships with these guns. Frankly that's about all that they're good for, but you shouldn't forget that they're there, as they WILL win games for you.

But what about the smoke? I generally found that the smoke had two purposes:

  • Disengaging
  • Waiting for a battleship to charge me so I can torp at point blank range

Sitting in your smoke and using your guns just isn't a terribly effective tactic in this ship, and the overwhelming majority of your damage will come from your torpedoes. 

 

Assuming she stay the way she is, this is a must buy for Destroyer lovers!

Overall Rating: 8/10

Fun Factor: 10/10

Credit Earning: 8/10

Ease of Play: 6/10

  • Cool 8

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Kelorn, thanks for the review and it was good to encounter you in game last night (since I was in a BB, was happy you were on MY SIDE) while you played this ship.  Keep up the good work and keep putting out good podcast content.  Oh, and go Cyclones!

  • Funny 1

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2 minutes ago, groomsiebelle said:

Kelorn, thanks for the review and it was good to encounter you in game last night (since I was in a BB, was happy you were on MY SIDE) while you played this ship.  Keep up the good work and keep putting out good podcast content.  Oh, and go Cyclones!

+1 to all of that, especially the cyclones love!

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You know my thoughts on this ship.  The sky is not falling.  

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1 hour ago, Kelorn said:

Since we're going to assume that we're all sick monkeys here, you have 4.65 seconds to react to getting hit by torpedoes that do 20,966 damage each. This makes for a rough time for any battleships looking to evade taking massive damage. To give you an idea of how devastating this is, here are the reaction times for Shimakaze torpedoes (also courtesy of LWM):

Type 93 - 2.5km detection range,  15.02 seconds @62 knots, 13.89 seconds  @67 knots.
Type 93 mod 3 - 1.7km detection range, 9.45 seconds  @67 knots, 8.79 seconds  @72 knots.
Type F3 - 1.8km detection range, 8.82 seconds  @76 knots, 8.28 seconds  @81 knots.

Worst case, you have roughly half the time to react and avoid the torpedos compared to Shimakaze's torps. Only a third of the time, if the Shima is running the 20km torps.

 

I would really like to see a graph showing all T8+ DD torp reaction times, maybe with and without TorpAccel. Im really curious to see how how IJN and Pan-Asian DDs stand up to others like this.

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47 minutes ago, Akeno017 said:

I would really like to see a graph showing all T8+ DD torp reaction times, maybe with and without TorpAccel. Im really curious to see how how IJN and Pan-Asian DDs stand up to others like this.

I think i've done enough graphing for today ;) Hopefully @LittleWhiteMouse can help you out when her full review hits

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23 minutes ago, Battlecruiser_Lutzow said:

This vessel should be purged from the data files. Zero- accountabilty, fire-and-forget gameplay is NOT what WoWs needed more of.

I understand that you think this will be the case, but please believe me that this ship is CAPABLE of so much more 

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14 minutes ago, Battlecruiser_Lutzow said:

This vessel should be purged from the data files. Zero- accountabilty, fire-and-forget gameplay is NOT what WoWs needed more of.

Yep my thoughts exactly...i dont think any of us who have played this game for a while believe the "sky is falling"..but this type of ship is just bad for game-play, BB's with no citadels is bad for game-play and Torpedo's that only hit certain ships are also bad for game-play.

Would love to see this game head in the direction where good play and not gimmicks are what separate people.

For Example:

I have a Winfast and  ...its a hard counter to DD's...there is very little a DD can do versus it...it has radar to spot DD's (so no smoke to hide in, it has smoke so no counter spotting, and with hydro its pretty hard for DD's to torp them). Sure other ships can and will rip it a new one...but for DD's there is no counter play.

This vessel is similar in that there is no real counter play to DWT with this kinda range and concealment.

Plz WG raise the bar a little on the skill side and drop the gimmicks.

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My main issue with the ship is the excessive range on the torpedoes. It needs to be knocked down to something more reasonable that forces the potatoes to at least close to within the same postal code as everyone else, where it can be spotted by other DDs and cruisers, and maybe even contribute to the team slightly (even if only by accident, which is typical for most IJN DD players as it is). "Blahblahblah, muh unicum lawl long range doesn't matter" etc. Yes, I know. You know who doesn't? A significant portion of the player base. If you give them range, they will use it. It is no different than the broadside reversing Myogi sequentially shooting HE at 18kms. That is bad for gameplay. It isn't about 20 km torpedoes being "OP," it is about them being toxic and obnoxious. 10-12km would be much more reasonable. It would also have the side effect of allowing you to use one of your other IJN DD captains rather than training a brand new dedicated Asashio captain with TA that you will use on nothing else just to use the ship to its full potential.

Edited by AdmiralPiett

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Make her DWtorp range down to 16km (12.8km w/ Torp Acceleration) and buff her fire rate slighty better than Kagero. With all this i can agreed to even use her or fight her in the battle.
Also let her have Yugumo's Type93 mod.3 (12km@67knots) with normal torpedo warhead as her alternate choice, in case some people just want more engagement style.

I might want that DWtorp to hit only BB CV CA but not CL or DD but this current mechanics still can't make it happen yet.

Edited by Zetarn

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33 minutes ago, Hanz_Gooblemienhoffen_42 said:

I have a Winfast and  ...its a hard counter to DD's...there is very little a DD can do versus it...it has radar to spot DD's (so no smoke to hide in, it has smoke so no counter spotting, and with hydro its pretty hard for DD's to torp them). Sure other ships can and will rip it a new one...but for DD's there is no counter play.

Which is why further sales were banned forever, and current players were IMHO fortunate not to have their ships confiscated and compensated in Doubloons.

The counterplay to this thing is cruisers and destroyers being forward to spot the ridiculous torpedo spam, and battleships & carriers making clever use of even small, low-lying islands,which are an absolute barrier to torpedoes even if they will not affect gunfire.

Give this thing a context where there are few or no battleships or carriers, or where there are large numbers of equal or higher-tier cruisers or destroyers, and she becomes prey. They will all be looking to kill her, particularly the cruisers, and she will have absolutely no defence against it. Their gun systems will shred her and she won't be able to punch back hard enough to save herself.

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3 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

Which is why further sales were banned forever, and current players were IMHO fortunate not to have their ships confiscated and compensated in Doubloons.

The counterplay to this thing is cruisers and destroyers being forward to spot the ridiculous torpedo spam, and battleships & carriers making clever use of even small, low-lying islands,which are an absolute barrier to torpedoes even if they will not affect gunfire.

Give this thing a context where there are few or no battleships or carriers, or where there are large numbers of equal or higher-tier cruisers or destroyers, and she becomes prey. They will all be looking to kill her, particularly the cruisers, and she will have absolutely no defence against it. Their gun systems will shred her and she won't be able to punch back hard enough to save herself.

right...but you're kinda making my point for me.

..as when the other scenario plays out..no BBs lots of CAs etc..the ship is really not useful...again its a gimmick and the game is better when we dont have gimmick ships. Again ships should not be OP or useless ..thats not great balance.

I mean some people really liked the Kitikami?

For me at least gimmicks aren't , in general, a good thing..whether its a Kiti, winfast or Asas.

At least dropping the range of the torps and letting them hit at least CAs would at least not relegate this ship to "gimmick".

 

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2 hours ago, Akeno017 said:

I would really like to see a graph showing all T8+ DD torp reaction times, maybe with and without TorpAccel. Im really curious to see how how IJN and Pan-Asian DDs stand up to others like this.

How about I teach you how to fish so that you can feed yourself?

  • Take the torpedo speed.
  • Divide it by 1.9438 to get the value in meters per second.
  • Take the torpedo detection range and convert it from km to meters (multiply by 1,000).
  • Take the detection range in meters and divide it by 5.22.  This is the distance compression coefficient in World of Warships.
  • Now take this new range and divide it by your torpedo speed in meters per second.

Example:  Minotaur's torpedoes travel at 62 knots and are visible at a range of 1.3km.

  • 62 knots / 1.9438 = 31.90 m/s
  • 1.3km * 1000 = 1,300m.
  • 1,300m / 5.22 = 249.04m
  • 249.04m / 31.90m/s = 7.8s

Tadaa.

  • Cool 3

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idc for the all or nothing type designs in WoWs.  This ship seems like it can feed on BBs pretty easily.  and if there are a few or no BBs, then the ship loses most of its value.  on top of that, i think it encourages some of the wrong play styles.  Mainly the one i see IJN DDs do a lot.   they sail off to map edge and dont leave it all game while torping from long/max range.  They aren't doing much for their team in terms of caps, spotting DDs/ships, torps, and more than likely aren't that helpful way out there.  maybe they get that one rare game where they actually help in a meaningful way but usually that is not the case. 

 

the tashkent, which i just finished grinding has some pretty good torps.   I fired them off all the time at random areas.   They have something like 1 min 10 sec or so reload.  That is very quick and combined with 3 launchers, lets you have more flexibility as to where you fire them and when   I got all sorts of random torps hits/kills,.   They weren't bad either for when you kite away.  That ship was one of the most enjoyable grinds i ever had.   i was tempted to keep it but i sold it for when i buy the khaba when it goes on sale this weekend.

 

and thanks for the math, LWM.

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11 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

How about I teach you how to fish so that you can feed yourself?

  • Take the torpedo speed.
  • Divide it by 1.9438 to get the value in meters per second.
  • Take the torpedo detection range and convert it from km to meters (multiply by 1,000).
  • Take the detection range in meters and divide it by 5.22.  This is the distance compression coefficient in World of Warships.
  • Now take this new range and divide it by your torpedo speed in meters per second.

Example:  Minotaur's torpedoes travel at 62 knots and are visible at a range of 1.3km.

  • 62 knots / 1.9438 = 31.90 m/s
  • 1.3km * 1000 = 1,300m.
  • 1,300m / 5.22 = 249.04m
  • 249.04m / 31.90m/s = 7.8s

Tadaa.

Thanks.

Also thanks for the fishing advice, totally easy to access info there, so should've known better then simply asking a question when I can pull it out a hat.

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1 hour ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

Example:  Minotaur's torpedoes travel at 62 knots and are visible at a range of 1.3km.

  • 62 knots / 1.9438 = 31.90 m/s
  • 1.3km * 1000 = 1,300m.
  • 1,300m / 5.22 = 249.04m
  • 249.04m / 31.90m/s = 7.8s

Tadaa.

These numbers (specifically the reaction time) are different from the ones shown on WoWSFT... 

 

http://wowsft.com/WarshipStats?nation=uk&shipType=Cruiser&ship=Minotaur&modules=3350179792,3349950416,3350048720,3349589968,3349557200&upgrades=&flags=&skills=JTVCJTVE&camo=false&mobile=false&consumables=&adrenalineValue=100&commander=default&uSkills=JTVCJTVE

 

Is this an error on their side?

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Torpedo reaction matters less and less as the target becomes more skilled.  Oddly enough during CBT there was a phase where armor wasn't correctly modeled and alot of people had lead target mods.  Trying to torpedo on the prediction line didn't work too well because people were zigzagging.  Once BB's learn to channel their WASD they'll probably mitigate most/all of the salvo.

The only game changer about these is possibly sneaking them past the screening DD's or CA's sometimes due to the reduced radius.  There's much less detection surface area and a much greater chance of it reaching the second line undetected.

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