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Guardian54

Guardian54's Tiering Experiment: 30 Tiers ~1874 to ~1950

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OVERVIEW:

I made a tiering experiment with several metrics enabled, which I believed should fit more tiers into a game:

1. "full manual secondary battery control (to varying efficacy)" to make armoured cruiser/pre-dreadnought battles less tedious, and also more vicious/realistic DD deathmatch knife-fights.

2. "more historical shell flight speeds, with balancing caveats" i.e. "until radar fire control is a thing, sail straight for a few moments at a time if you want to actually hit anything reliably. Cruisers should rejoice at battleships no longer deleting them nearly as often!"

3. Stealthier torpedoes to balance full 2ndary control on battleships--oh you can hear the torpedoes in the water if you or a nearby ally has hydrophones (they supposedly sound like loud high-speed drills in the water), but to get more than a general bearing (or multiple overlapping bearings with several allies nearby)...

4. Anything that's a noticeable design alteration or improvement/downgrade is another tier.

5. Retrograde tier progress is allowed. In other words, you can hit a dead end and shift to another line and go back one or more tiers

I ended up with 30 tiers among three British destroyer subtypes, the same 30 tiers among battleships (curiously, roughly similar timeframes for designs too), and also 30 tiers for British cruisers (papered over the last 2 CL and 7 CA tiers though).

 

CONDITIONS:

START: Fielding of self-propelled torpedo on a boat.

END: Last all-gun warships.

This yielded, all in the 1874-1877 bracket, "First torpedo boat", "first recognizable pre-dreadnought ancestor", "first British armoured cruiser", and "first all-steel Royal Navy ship"

I omitted boats only armed with autocannons. the reason I went all the way to the first torpedo boat is because going to HMS Swift, the first recognizable DD ancestor, was 26 tiers, an uneven number.

The end date was the Daring class of 1949, the last all-gun Royal Navy destroyer. Its rivals in the US Destroyers would be the Forrest Sherman (3x1 127L54 @40 RPM + 2x2 76L50@50 RPM), Norfolk (DL-1) 1960 (4x2 76L70@90-100 RPM),

Now I know I habitually use a term many here wouldn't recognize, so RPM = Rounds Per Minute (per gun), or Reloads Per Minute, obviously only for gunnery. Note that some ship models that are "noticeably different" IRL (i.e. larger beam, weapon loadouts, etc.) could need be rebalanced by gunnery ROF here.

Ultimate Goal: To contemplate the possibility of a game where getting +2 MM is really quite minor other than for the lowest tiers of sheltered MM (horrid idea for making money, I know, as the suffering is what makes people pay for prem time and goods).

 

RESULTS - BRITISH DESTROYERS can give exactly 30 Tiers. Same goes for British Battleships.

For example, I end up with:

Sub-line 1: British Torpedo Boats/Lightweight DDs, marked by "LINE 1)". Be advised that according to what I have so far low tier torpedo actions would involve Matrix dodging skills at very close torpedo ranges and critical hits on larger ships with torpedoes.

Sub-line 2: British Intermediate DDs, marked by "LINE 2)"

Sub-line 3: British Heavy/Gun DDs (Yes, I know, the low tier ones are Torpedo Gunboats), marked by "LINE 3)"

Images included where I could find any. For example, here's some illustrations of roughly how daring and close quarters the first 12 or so tiers of "destroyers" should seem.

Spoiler

Ataquechocrane.png

If you want a more human interpretation, the wild melees I expect could be interpreted like this:

Battle_of_Lutzen.jpg

Finally, I hope it's damned obvious the larger inch/mm number marked is for torpedoes for DDs.

This post has been revised to be an index, by thread post number we have:

British Destroyers Up to Tier 26: Post #2

British Destroyer Line Split After Tier 26: Post #3

British Destroyer Alternatives and Side Lines: Post #4

At this point I realized each post was making the page ludicrously huge, but couldn't delete the rest of my early reserved posts so that I could stimulate more discussion with updates to the thread, so I parcelled out the British DD lines over 3 posts to try to use up my reserved posts quicker.

Edited by Guardian54
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EDIT: I relocate the British DDs to this post instead of the OP, also reorganized so that the Primary Line is more obvious.

BRITISH DESTROYERS

Primary Axis of Progression, Up to L/M Class (Tier 26) Before the Retrograde Split

Tier 1

HMS Lightning (1876), the world's first dedicated torpedo boat. This is labelled under the Torpedo Boat category.

Though the vessel displaces only 32.5 tons, it should be noted that it is very low profile and fire control at this tier consists of spray and pray at best against such tiny targets, especially since without secondary battery fire control (or even centralized fire control for primaries) it takes an obscene effort to get a hit on this thing. At 18.5 knots, it has a massive 5 knot (i.e. almost 40% faster) or greater speed advantage over equal tier battleships (i.e. HMS Devastation).

Guns: You can get an upgrade to get a few riflemen on board firing from the windows. By shooting at enemy gun mounts you can reduce their accuracy while they are under fire (automatically attepts to suppress secondaries when gun target is designated and you are switched to aiming torpedoes), or you can shoot at their hull to inflict HP damage against small craft, reducing the chances of a draw if only gun-less torpedo boats survive on both sides.

Torpedoes: A choice between two 14" Whitehead Torpedoes in drop collars which can rotate some unknown number of degrees outboard to either side, or a single bow tube on a rotating mount, with a presumably faster reload. The model below I believe shows both installed, which would be technically incorrect.

The torpedoes equipped are capable of 17 knots, for 600 meters, with an upgrade to 20 knots (17 knots was attained in 1870, so I'm artificially buffing it slightly) for 760 meters (historical range of the Whitehead Torpedo in 1877, though at a mere 15.7 knots historically). This is enough range to generally not get shot due to how poor accuracy and secondary batteries are at this tier.

HMS_Lightning_1876_model.jpg

 

Tier 2

TB 39 Class Torpedo Boat (1882) as per http://www.dreadnoughtproject.org/tfs/index.php/T.B._39_Class_Torpedo_Boat_(1882)

These boats were 100 feet long and 40 tons, a snug middle ground between the Lightning-types and the 113-Footers, though speed is unknown to me (a book is cited on the page above that will give you the speed). They were originally built for Chile by Yarrow & Company.

They carried a single tube for 14-inch Whitehead torpedoes and gained (compared to Lightning) two twin-barreled 1-inch Nordenfelt (or Nordenfeld) rapid-fire guns. They may be re-armed to two torpedoes in dropping gear, and 5-barrelled 0.45-inch Nordenfelt guns.

 

Tier 3

113-Footer Torpedo Boat (1884) as per http://www.dreadnoughtproject.org/tfs/index.php/113_Footer_Class_Torpedo_Boat_(1884) It seems TB 21 and 22, the Thornycroft boats, were 20 knots and 64 tons, while the Yarrow boats were 67 tons and 18.75 knots... Ah, I see the problem now. The torpedo tubes are said to be 2-3, and the guns are said to be 1-2.

The player may therefore choose between one of two setups:

Thornycroft Hull: 20 knots, 64 tons, 1 bow tube (presumably built in so only able to fire within a couple degrees of ahead--to simulate the rolling of the ship giving some leeway for an experienced crew--so you'll basically have to aim the ship), 1 deck tube (free traverse), 1x Nordenfelt 3-pounder. This is faster (methinks), tougher, and has more torpedoes than the Tier 2.

Yarrow Hull: 18.75 knots, 67 tons, 2 bow tubes (built in), 1 deck tube, 2x Nordenfelt 3-pounder

 

Tier 4

125 Footer Class Torpedo Boat (1885) as per http://www.dreadnoughtproject.org/tfs/index.php/125_Footer_Class_Torpedo_Boat_(1885)

The stock configuration makes 19 knots and displaces 66 tons (one of the White boats, which had a modified stern to improve steering). It has a single fixed bow 14" torpedo tube, two 3-pounders and two two-barreled Nordenfelt "machine guns". This model gains notable amounts of gun armament over the previous tier (rapid-fire guns have a much higher chance of hitting a target).

They may be upgraded engine-wise to 21.5 knots (see Yarrow models) with the removal of the bow torpedo tube and displaces a bit more (presumably). Each 3-pounder may be swapped for a pair of 14-inch torpedo tubes on a turntable mounting (which leaves you with four torpedoes but only two machine guns for gun armament). This is clearly superior to the previous tier in speed and overall gun power (due to machine guns) even if you have to drop one of your 3-pounders to carry any torpedoes.

 

Tier 5

TB 80 (1886) as per http://www.dreadnoughtproject.org/tfs/index.php/H.M._T.B._80_(1886)

Speed and displacement unknown (135-footer though, estimated 22-23 knots)

Armament is known to be 1 fixed and twin deck 14" torpedoes, and 3x 3-pounder guns. This is a heavier overall armament than the Tier 4.

 

Tier 6

HMS Swift (TB 81) as per http://www.dreadnoughtproject.org/tfs/index.php/H.M._T.B._81_(1885) (image CLAIMS to be HMS Swift and HMS Sure at Esquimalt, from July 1885???)

Also used https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_TB_81_(1885)

The boat made 23.75 knots and displaced 139 tons.

Armament: 1 (fixed bow) +2x 14" (on deck, arrangement unknown), 4x 3pdr (47mm) guns. This gains 1 gun over the Tier 5.

a-00734_141.jpg

 

Tier 7

Havock/Daring (1893) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Havock-class_destroyer and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daring-class_destroyer_(1893)

These ships could make about 24-25 knots in service in open ocean and were about 280-290 tons full.

The armament makes a quantum leap. The stock hull (Havock) has 1x 12pdr and 3x 6pdr to start with and 1 (fixed bow) + twin 18" (deck) torpedoes, displacing 279 tons and making 26.78 knots with maximum speed boost. The upgraded hull (Daring) has 1x 12 pounder, 3x 6pdr and single bow + twin 18" deck torpedoes, making 27 knots boosted.

Historically, these ships lost the bow torpedo tube and gained two more 6-pounder guns. We will model this as necessary to go from 24 to 25 knots normal and up to their maximums above boosted, and omit the gun upgrade as it is far too powerful relative to Tier 6.

Now, you might be wondering what the ENORMOUS stat leap from Tier 6 to 7 is. Well observe the freeboard in the photos. I'd say it's at least 50% taller a target than the Swift, no? And in naval gunnery the height of target is a huge deal in the shot shadow area. It's also a much larger vessel and thus easier to hit without coming obscenely close. Crucially, the main gun is not much bigger than the secondaries, so does not make that much larger a splash. Fire control is more difficult for secondaries when the calibres are not far enough apart, unless local and centralized fire control are sufficiently advanced (i.e. not in this era by far). So despite the increase in number and size of guns, the firepower increase is not actually 1v2 roflstomp levels of overwhelming--the rate of fire is lower and the accuracy is still terrible even if each hit does more damage--and though both gun and torpedo power are much greater than before, the survivability problem from being a bigger target is a noticeable hindrance when fighting larger ships.

On the other hand if it has to fight torpedo boats it will likely do as the original classification of "torpedo boat destroyer" suggests.

IMAGES:  Model is Havock class (with bow tube removed), Photo is Daring class

HMS_Hornet_model_side.jpg

HMS_DARING_(1893).jpg

 

Tier 8:

Ardent through Zebra Classes from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-class_destroyer_(1913) (HMS Ardent pictured)

These ships made about 25 knots (Boxer managed 29.175 knots on trials... yeah, with speed boost consumable maybe) and displaced about 270-370 tons (HP depends on balance)

The armament is 1x12pdr, 3x6pdr, bow and 1x2 18" tubes, upgrade swaps the bow torpedo tube out to reach full speed. The historical 2 extra 6-pounders added are omitted for balance and progression, and of course since this wasn't built with them.

This class is very similar to the previous class, Slightly faster and perhaps beefier than the predecessor, slightly better torpedo performance. The crews are just as terrible at distinguishing between 12-pounder and 6-pounder splashes though, so gunnery accuracy is... bleh at best.

HMS_Ardent_(1894)_IWM_Q_020958.jpg

 

Tier 9

D-Class (1913) (yes, I know it's mixed and will be a Frankenship) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-class_destroyer_(1913) HMS Fame pictured.

25 knots (to be realistic, 30 knots in service was impossible), 355 tons (low-balling the HP for balance vs the 27-knotters)

1x12pdr, 5x6pdr, 1x2 18" tubes

I didn't rate this faster than the predecessor, but it should be marginally beefier and has higher gun power, and slightly better torpedo performance.

HMS_Fame_(1896)_IWM_Q_021241.jpg

 

Tier 10

B/C-Class (1913) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B-class_destroyer_(1913) and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-class_destroyer_(1913) Frankenship alert! HMS Arab and HMS Chamois pictured.

Circa 27 knots (the 30-36 on the wiki is a pipe dream under realistic combat loads even in a calm sea, but the extra funnels and hit boxes do warrant noticeably higher speed and a more powerful speed boost consumable...), circa 350-450 tons (balance as needed, because the two extra funnels means more hitbox than D-class)

1x12pdr, 5x6pdr, 1x2 18" tubes

Slightly faster and beefier than the predecessor, slightly better torpedo performance.

HMS_Arab_(1901).jpg

HMS_Chamois_(1896)_IWM_Q_038460.jpg


Tier 11

River Class (1903) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River-class_destroyer HMS Eden pictured

25.5 knots, 544-580 tons

1x 12pdr 12cwt (3"L40), 5x 6pdr, 2x single 18" tubes, upgrades from the 6-pounders to 3x 12pdr 8cwt (3"L28).

Slower, beefier, and higher in gun power than ancestors (those classes have year stamps from when they were reclassed to the letter classes). This class allows you to  launch single torpedoes with better control than a twin launcher. The problem though is fire control, because if you think two guns having the same splashes but different ballistics is good for fire control... I have a bridge to Terebithia to sell you.

HMS_Eden.jpg

 

Tier 12

Tribal Class (1905) as built https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribal-class_destroyer_(1905) HMS Crusader pictured

33 knots (28 without boost?), 860-940 (long?) tons

3x12pdr 12 cwt, 2x1 18" tubes

Unified main battery gives this much better accuracy characteristics (easier fire control) than the Tier 11 as trade-off for the gun count. It is also healthier, and very importantly has TURBINES. That means it has much better speed, much better speed boost, but the speed boost is shorter and takes longer to recharge due to historically crippling fuel inefficiency problems with early turbine tech.

HMS_Crusader_WWI_IWM_Q_018253.jpg

 

Tier 13

Upgunned Tribal (HMS Saracen onward)

33 knots (28 without boost?), 860-940 (long?) tons

2x 4"L/40, 2x1 18" tubes

Unified main battery of MUCH heavier guns (31 pound shell compared to the 12-pounder means probably 4x or more bursting charge) albeit firing at about half the rate, means the fire control is reasonably good, the range is much improved, and you are actually physically capable of penetrating the citadels of cruisers with AP outside suicidal ranges if needed. It is also healthier, and very importantly has TURBINES. That means it has much better speed, much better speed boost, but the speed boost is shorter and takes longer to recharge due to historically crippling fuel inefficiency problems with early turbine tech.

If balance requires, add an upgrade giving 2x12pdr 12cwt somewhere (the waist mounts that were added to the first five Tribals historically). This negatively affects accuracy on the main battery a bit inside the 12 pounders' range due to relative similarity of shell splash size, but the DPS increase would be worth it, especially at short range.

 

Tier 14

Acorn (1910)/Acheron (1911) HMS Fury and Acheron shown (Fury at left attending sinking of Audacious)

27-35 knots (balance as needed), 730-780/750-790 tons

2x 4"L40, 2x12pdr 12cwt, 2x1 21" tubes

It's not as healthy as the Tribals, but that does mean a smaller target, and it gets better torpedoes (and guns if the upgunned Tribal does not need the waist 12 pounders to be balanced).

HMS_FURY_(1911)_attending_Audacious.jpgHMS_Acheron_(1911).jpg

 

Tier 15:

Acasta (1912) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acasta-class_destroyer HMS Shark pictured

29 knots, 934-984 tons

3x1 4"L40, 1x 2pdr pom-pom, 2x1 533mm (21") tubes

This is the first tier at which you get a relatively modern automatic cannon. It might only be good at knife fighting ranges and then only on certain arcs against enemy superstructure or other destroyers' flimsy hulls, but don't underestimate the effects of raking the enemy's decks in suppressing their gunnery! This gun, like other secondaries not toggled to sync with main battery control, may have designated section(s) on an enemy ship to fire at, or may be set to fire at targets of opportunity (which give much higher hit rate and penetration chance, but tends to aim only at enemy superstructures or amidships on destroyers and even then takes some firing to walk the shells in--which is why it has better hit rate than trying to suppress enemy gunnery in a knife fight) 

HMS_Shark_(WWI).jpg

 

Tier 16

Laforey Class (1913) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laforey-class_destroyer_(1913) HMS Loyal pictured

29 knots, 980-1020 tons

3x1 4"L40, 2x 2pdr pom-pom, 2x2 533mm tubes

The doubled torpedo armament is why this is a tier up from Acasta. It also has an extra autocannon.

HMS_Loyal_(1913)_IWM_SP_001136.jpg

 

Tier 17

M/R/S Classes (1915, 1916, 1918 respective) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Admiralty_M-class_destroyerhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-class_destroyer_(1916)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-class_destroyer_(1917) HMS Pasley (M), HMS Skate (R), HMS Tenedos (S) pictured

34-36 knots (deep slows down to 32.5 knots, I recommend this low end for balance vs previous Laforey class), circa 1000-1200 tons standard/deep

3x1 4"L40, 2x 2pdr pom-pom, 2x2 533mm tubes

This is significantly faster and larger/healthier than the Laforey class.

Pasley.jpgHMS_Skate.jpgHMS_Tenedos_(H04)_IWM_FL_019818.jpg

 

Tier 18

V/W Class https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_and_W-class_destroyer, HMAS Waterhen pictured

34 knots, 1200-1500 tons full load??

4x 4" L45, 2x1 2pdr pom-pom upgrading to 1x QF 3" 20cwt, 2x2 533mm tubes

This has heavier guns and 1 more of them than the M/R/S classes. I omitted the later upgrade to 2x3 torpedo tubes for now since I felt the gun and HP increases were sufficient (counterbalanced slightly by size increase).

HMAS_Waterhen_SLV_Green.jpg

 

Tier 19

Modified W Class https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_and_W-class_destroyer#Thornycroft_modified_W_class, HMS Veteran modelled

34 knots, 1550 tons full load

4x BL 4.7" (120mm) L45, 2x1 2pdr pom-pom, 2x3 533mm tubes

Significantly heavier guns than the stock V/W class and also a substantially heavier torpedo armament.

HMS_Veteran_model.jpg

 

Tier 20

HMS Amazon (D39 commissioned 1927) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Amazon_(D39)

37 knots, 1370/1841 tons standard/deep

4x BL 4.7" (120mm) L45, 2x1 2pdr pom-pom, 2x3 533mm tubes

Faster and healthier than the Modified W.

HMS_Amazon.jpg

 

Tier 21

A/B Classes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-_and_B-class_destroyer HMS Achates pictured

35 knots, 1370/1810 tons standard/deep

4x QF 4.7" (120mm) L45, 2x1 2pdr pom-pom, 2x4 533mm tubes

It may be a bit slower than Amazon (or Ambuscade and Shakespeare, all of which upgrade to this), but it has higher rate of fire on the main guns (BL 4" fired 6-8 RPM while QF 4" could have been anywhere from 10 to 20 RPM depending on gun and era, but I recommend putting Amazon down to about 6-7 RPM and this between 7-8 so that the later tiers can slowly increase), and the heavier torpedo armament is no joke!

HMS_Achates_(H12).jpg

 

Tier 22

C/D/E Classes (1932-1934) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_and_D-class_destroyerhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E_and_F-class_destroyer, HMCS Restigouche (colorized) and HMS Encounter pictured.

35.5 knots, 1920-1970 tons deep

4x QF 4.7" (120mm) L45, 1x QF 3" 20 cwt (AA), 2x1 QF 2pdr Mk II,  2x4 533mm tubes, 20x Depth Charges with 2 Throwers

A possible mechanic for depth charges besides submarines would involve planting time-delay mines behind you in a close chase, or hurling large contact-primed bombs onto enemy ships in knife-fights.

Admiralty Fire Control Clock Mk 1 installed, gun handling improved over previous classes in exchange for slightly reduced ROF (to make the Tier 23 look better when the gun crews "got used to the new gear" ahem). This ship also has a noticeable secondary gun.

HMCS_Restigouche_(H00)_CT-284.jpg

HMS_Encounter_1938_IWM_FL_11382.jpg

 

Tier 23

F/G/H Class https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G_and_H-class_destroyer, HMS Hereward pictured

35.5 knots (buff up to 36, I refuse to believe you can't overclock enough for that), 1884-1890 tons deep

4x QF 4.7" (120mm) L45, 2x quad 12.7mm machine guns, 2x4 533mm tubes, 20x Depth Charges with 1 rack and 2 Throwers

More compact machinery was noted in the Wikipedia article, and three boiler rooms! This means that a single hit will not incapacitate all engine rooms, unlike previous classes! In arcade video game terms this translates into losing far less speed per boiler room incapacitated, and for WOWS terms, that means Last Stand will be more efficient.

The problem though is that this isn't enough of a jump from the C/D/E/F classes, which may require some... creative measures, like ramping up ROF on the main guns, introducing improvements to the torpedo (an improved model of Mk IX) or remodelling the bridge as per HMS Hereward once it got the experimental twin turret in B position, giving better handling characteristics.

Be warned though that in a knife fight, especially with other destroyers, the quad .50 machine guns are excellent at suppressing exposed gun mounts (i.e. dampening enemy destroyer secondaries) and preventing thermal damage from recovering over time (which means starting fires better) due to rate of fire.

HMS_Hereward_(H93)_underway_on_20_Decemb

 

Tier 24

I Class https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-class_destroyer HMS Inglefield (a flotilla leader with 5 guns) pictured

36 knots, 1390/1918 standard/deep

4x1 120mm (4.7") L45 (same old Mk IX guns), 2x quad 12.7mm machine guns, 2x5 533mm tubes (Mk IX torpedoes), 20 DC + 2 throwers, can choose to load 60 mines (i.e. stationary, very stealthy torpedoes) instead of depth charges and throwers, but would lose anti-submarine capability (unless the sub is surfaced) if it does that.

I consider +25% torpedoes to be a clear step up. You don't actually need to increase the gun ROF any more to make this a reasonable incremental improvement.

HMS_Inglefield_(D02).jpg

 

Tier 25

J/K/N https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J-,_K-_and_N-class_destroyer HMS Kashmir pictured

36 knots, 1720/2370 tons standard/deep

3x2 QF 4.7" (120mm) Mk XII, 1x4 2pdr pom-pom, 2x5 533mm tubes, 20 DC, 2 throwers

The guns are a significant step up from the previous tier, being 50% more numerous, but I expect the rate of fire to be lower, making the firepower increase more reasonable (say going from perhaps 10 RPM on the I-class to 9). The J/K/N class is also larger and thus healthier, but goes back to two boiler rooms, which can result in a single flooding disabling both pending repair.

HMS_Kashmir.jpg

 

Tier 26

L/M Class  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L_and_M-class_destroyer HMS Legion pictured

36 knots, 1950/2700 standard/deep

3x2 4.7" Mk XI, 1x4 2pdr pom-pom, 2x4 533mm tubes (can swap one for a 4" Mk V AA gun which of course also increases surface gun power)

The main guns are 120L50, a far better gun than the other 120mm guns of the RN (28 kg shell instead of 23) and able to pierce 3 inches of armour at 10 km instead of 5.9 km, and due to weight is also a very healthy ship. Regrettably for topweight reasons, the torpedo armament was decreased.

HMS_Legion.jpg

After this, you need to go BACK in power due WWII breaking out and emergency measures being taken.

Edited by Guardian54
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Primary Axis of Progression, Post-L/M Class (Tier 26) Retrograde Split

After the Tier 26, the player must research BACK to Tier 23, choosing either the flame-spewing RAEGBOTE that is the Hunt-class or the War Emergency Programme. Either line will converge on the Battle 1942.

Let us first contemplate the merits and demerits of the War Emergency Programme, then the Gun Destroyer tech line (which, unlike the War Emergency Programme, does not match actual historical progression).

 

WAR EMERGENCY PROGRAMME Tier 23

O/P Class https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_and_P-class_destroyer, HMS Oribi pictured

circa 36-36.75 knots (balance...), 1717/2286 tons standard/full

4x1 4"L45 Mk V, 1x4 2-pdr pom-pom, upgrades add 6x1 20mm Oerlikon, 2x4 533mm tubes (can trade one mount for another main gun if desired), 70 DCs with 4 throwers

Compared to the G/H class it has higher ROF and lower fire chance on the main guns, stronger secondaries/AA, and is much better at throwing bombs at enemies in knife fights in ways reminiscent of satchel charges.

HMS_Oribi.jpg

 

Tier 24

Q/R Class https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_and_R-class_destroyer HMAS Quiberon pictured

36 knots, 1719/2450 tons standard/full

4x1 120mm Mk IX, 1x4 2-pdr pom-pom, 6x1 20mm Oerlikon, 2x4 533mm tubes (Mk IX torpedoes), 45 DC + 3 throwers

The rate of fire should be like 0.5 RPM higher than the I-class. That will combine with the heavier secondary/AA batteries to balance for the inferior torpedo armament.

HMAS_Quiberon_(301247).jpg

 

Tier 25

S/T/U/V/W Classes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S_and_T-class_destroyerhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U_and_V-class_destroyerhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W_and_Z-class_destroyer HMS Terpsichore (S/T), HMS Undaunted (U/V), HMS Wager (W) shown

36 knots, approx 1810/2060/2580 tons standard/full/deep

4x1 120mm Mk IX, 1x2 40mm Bofors, 8x1 20mm Oerlikon, (upgrading to 4x1 Bofors for more small-ship melee firepower) 2x4 533mm tubes, 70 DC + 4 throwers

These ships are able to fire over small islands better due to higher elevation in CP Mk XXII mountings, and are good in AA. The secondaries are good too, including the bomb throwers, and the torpedoes are adequate.

British_T-class_destroyer_1945.jpgHMS_Undaunted_1944_IWM_FL_008812.jpgHMS_Wager_1944_IWM_FL_8784.jpg

 

Tier 26

Z/C Class https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W_and_Z-class_destroyer, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-class_destroyer_(1943) HMS Zebra shown

36 knots, 1860/2570 standard/deep (Z), 1740/2570 (Ca subclass), 1930/2576 (other C Class)

4x1 4.5" L/45 (113mm) Mk IV (ROF up GREATLY from 120mm), 1x2 40mm Bofors, 8x1 20mm Oerlikon, (upgrading to 4x1 Bofors for more small-ship melee firepower, yes I know this is Z class only, not on C Classes) 2x4 533mm tubes, 70 DC (80 in C Class) + 4 throwers

Note that the Bofors and Oerlikons are actually upgrades from 2-pounder pom-poms. The rate of fire increase (I suggest something like from 12 RPM to 16) over the previous tier compensates for worse alpha.

HMS_Zebra.jpg

 

Tier 27

Weapon Class AS BUILT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weapon-class_destroyer HMS Battleaxe shown

31 knots, 1980/2825 standard/full

3x2 4"L45 (forget the Squid AS Mortar!), 2x2 + 2x1 40mm Bofors L60, 2x5 533mm tubes

It's dubiously slow, to be sure, but it has "unit machinery" which reduces the chance of immobilization, and it gets an excellent and easily-recharged smokescreen due to the relatively stubby second funnel being able to spew smoke that drops down very close to the ship's stern even at speed. It also has a very heavy torpedo loadout for its era, which makes charging the smoke a relatively Terrible Idea, and the rate of fire on the guns is murderous (I recommend 15 RPM, as this type of mount is known for 15-20 RPM firing rate).

Battleaxe2.jpg

 

Tier 28

G Class https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G-class_destroyer_(1944) PAPER BOAT ALERT!

34 knots (designed), 2027/2780 standard/deep

2x2 113mm L45 (Mk V had 24 RPM planned machine loading, 18 RPM manual realistic/achieved, 12 RPM planned, balance as needed most likely circa 18 RPM), 6x 40mm Bofors (layout unknown), 2x5 533mm tubes

Same number of main gun shells per minute as the Weapon class, but the shells themselves are more powerful. It's also less obnoxiously slow for the tier.

This leads to the Tier 29 Battle Extended.

 

Also from the L/M class at Tier 26, we have the GUN FOCUSED DESTROYERS, which eventually reach Tier 30!

Tier 23

LINE 3 (Research from L/M Class at Tier 26, yes, that goes backwards): Hunt Class Type I https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunt-class_destroyer Former HMS Mendip pictured

27.5 knots, 1020/1360 tons standard/full

2x2 4" Mk XVI (15-20 RPM historical, balance as needed), 1x4 2pdr pom-pom, 2x1 20mm Oerlikon, 40 DC, 2 throwers

Given how terrible the speed and tonnage are, this is a gimmick boat. It is faster when maneuvering than cruisers (which can bleed over 50% speed in hard turns) and causally outguns other destroyers. Basically, it's a slower and slightly less overwhelming version of WOWS's Friesland. I recommend ROF of about 16 RPM (compare to the other two destroyers I put at this tier, which fire circa 10 RPM from 4 guns...) and relatively-quickly-recharging crawling smoke to compensate for lack of torpedoes.

The great benefit of being slow is your gun accuracy compared to wild high-speed manoeuvring.

Ibrahim_al-Awwal1956.jpg

 

Tier 24

Hunt Class Type II/III, HMS Blean (a Type III) pictured (not to be confused with Mr. Bean)

27 knots, circa 1450 tons full

3x2 4" Mk XVI, 1x4 2pdr pom-pom, 2x1 20mm Oerlikon, 110 DC, 3 throwers. Can trade Y turret for 1x2 533mm tubes amidships.

For fire control and ammunition supply reasons, when equipped with three turrets the rate of fire per turret may be excused as slightly lower if balance requires it (i.e. lowered from 16 RPM to say 14 RPM). However, if desired you can trade Y turret away and install a twin 21-inch torpedo launcher amidships just to give cruisers a plausible to not come barreling through your smoke to knife/ram you to death. I would not recommend this, as you can pelt a cruiser's face and force him to maneuver at long range for more than long enough to open up the distance even while weaving due to maintaining speed better in turns, and/or get into cover.

D2_1_b.jpg

 

Tier 25

Hunt Class Type IV, HMS Brecon shown

26 knots (justify buffing this up somehow), 1194/1586 tons standard/full

3x2 4" Mk XVI, 1x4 2pdr pom-pom, 2x1 20mm Oerlikon, 1x3 533mm tubes, 40 DC, 2 throwers.

That historical 15-20 RPM gun turret is very good at punishing anyone dumb enough to get close enough to hit reliably. Unfortunately, like the last two tiers, you literally cannot outrun anything except the battleships (i.e. the slow battleships like Colorado) at your tier. However, you at least have enough torpedo armament to convince people to not come too close, and at long range there's a lot of empty ocean around your tiny, nimble boat...

HMS_Brecon_FL2875.jpg

 

Tier 26

Tribal (1936) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribal-class_destroyer_(1936) HMS Afridi shown

36 knots, 1921/2559 standard/deep

4x2 4.7"L45 (120mm) Mk XII, 1x4 2pdr pom-pom, 2x4 .50 AA machine guns, 1x4 533mm tubes, 20 DC + 2 Throwers

On the plus side for everyone on the other end, you are no longer piling up thermal damage and plastering them with shells like a chainsaw. On the minus side instead of being hit by 96 102mm shells per minute, they are now getting hit by what I recommend to be 72 4.7" shells (9 RPM) per minute, which does similar direct damage per minute, though thermal damage accumulation is slightly slower.

On the minus side, your sonar suffers due to your higher speed and your smoke is less effective. You also have extremely limited AA as these main battery mounts can only elevate to 40 degrees, so they can't protect yourself against dive bombers or shoot down any planes too close to you that aren't low down for attack runs.

TribalDD_HMS_Afridi.jpg

 

Tier 27

Wartime Tribal, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribal-class_destroyer_(1936) HMCS Haida shown (one of the turrets has 4" high- angle guns i.e. ROF/DPS increase!)

36 knots, still circa 1900/2600 standard/deep

3x2 4.7"L45 Mk XII, 1x2 4" Mk XVI, 4x single and twin 20mm Oerlikon, 1x4 533mm tubes, 30 DCs + 2 Throwers

You may upgrade to 4x2 4" Mk XVI (More ROF/DPS = More Hits = More Damage up close, also dual-purpose guns instead of single-purpose), 1x2 + 4x1 40mm Bofors L/60 (more effective direct-fire in knife fights than Oerlikons), 1x4 533 tubes, 46 DCs + 2 Throwers.

It should be pointed out that this is an earlier mount than found on the Hunt Class, so ROF can be slightly less insane.

HMCS_Haida_Hamilton_Ontario_1.jpg

 

Tier 28

1942/1943 Battle Class https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle-class_destroyer HMS Barfleur shown

34 knots, circa 2315/3290 standard/full (the full is fudged slightly for the fifth 4.5" gun)

2x2 113mm L45 MK III, 1x1 4" Mk XXIII (theoretically AA, but in reality it's just more direct firepower), 4x2 + 4-6x1 40mm Bofors, 2x4 533mm tubes, Unknown DCs (4 throwers) later replaced by 1x Squid AS Mortar.

The 113mm guns sustained 12 RPM per gun historically by Illustrious, manual loading should reach up to 18 RPM with late-war improved assist mechanisms. The 4" can be upgraded to another 4.5" for better-synchronized gunfire and slightly improved accuracy.

HMS_Barfleur_(D80).png

Compared to the G Class, 1942 Battles should have superior gun DPS at range and more so up close (40mm Bofors can pen destroyer hull plating i.e. 15mm at 3500 meters), in exchange for a 20% weaker torpedo salvo.

 

Tier 29

Extended Battle Class, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle-class_destroyer HMS Dunkirk shown

35.75 knots, something like 2480/3430 standard/full

3x2 4.5"L45 (18 RPM), 3x2 + 2x1 40mm Bofors, 2x5 533mm tubes, 1x Squid AS Mortar

+20% gun power and +25% torpedo salvo compared to previous tier!

 

Tier 30

Daring Class https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daring-class_destroyer_(1949) HMAS Vampire shown

35 knots, 2830/3820 standard/full

3x2 4.5"L45 Mk V, 3x2 40mm Bofors, 2x5 533mm tubes, 1x Squid AS Mortar

You know what? I'm going to go with the power assisted loading rate, 24 RPM, because what else does this have over the Extended Battle Class? It's a bit slower, it's got a bit less secondary battery, and there's no improvement in other armament. Besides, at the very top tier, this ship has to contend with the likes of the Norfolk (DL-1) 1959, and 4x2 3"/70 firing at 90 RPM (reloads per minute) is no joke even if the individual shells don't do much (obviously, I'm going of a whole different set of ricochet mechanics here, but even so nose-fused HE would only do splinter damage to a Daring's hull head-on (flat-on is another story) due to insufficient penetration capacity to get through at that angle against regular hull plating thickness.

I agree with Wargaming's assessment of 35 knots, because if you think I'm going to believe that you can go from the Extended Battle's 3430 tons full load and about 50,000 shaft horsepower at 35.75 knots to the Daring's 3820 full load, very slightly upscaled hull, and 54,000 shp for only 30 knots...

HMAS-Vampire-D11-01.jpg

 

END NOTE ON ROYAL NAVY DD TIERING:

The Darings are actually a good match for other "Last Gun Destroyer" designs like the Forrest Sherman, Norfolk (DL-1), Gearing 1950, etc.

The scary thing about this experiment is that, without the HE caliber rules, overmatch, etc. of WOWS considered, the "Super Akizuki" paper class could match a Daring in gun power in theory as 15 RPM was considered typical for its crews, throwing out 120 rounds per minute in total to a Daring's 108 practical manual loading rate. In actually, well, fire control kills it.

I only went into the torpedo boats because 26 tiers didn't sound nice, and I couldn't justify outright cutting any out as I was trying to make tier gaps quite narrow. Yes, it resulted in Sameface galore from Tier 21 to Tier 25... but there were noticeable improvements like the quintuple torpedo mount, a far better 120mm gun, size (HP), etc. on the original main developmental line. It also kludged out space (tiers) for the various WWII US Cruisers. And I know I kind of kludged the Hunt Class in there, but hey they had to go somewhere and the diversity of their traits was enough for 3 tiers.

Edited by Guardian54

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EDITED: British Destroyer Side Shows.

From HMS Swfit at Tier 6 the game leads into Spanish warship Destructor at Tier 7, which starts the Hispanic World Destroyer Tree. In fact, there are numerous such connections from the Royal Navy to others. For our purposes however we mainly focus on the side shows and sub-branches of the Royal Navy which ran parallel to the main branch at some point or other.

 

For example, Alternative Tier 6

As an alternative to HMS Swift, you could get the 160 Footer Class as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_torpedo_boat_classes_of_the_Royal_Navy Ends the torpedo boat sub-branch

25 knots, 188-208 tons

3x18" (arrangement unknown, likely fixed bow + 2x deck, likely 2x1 single mounts), 3x 3pdr Hotchkiss

It goes faster and is healthier than HMS Swift, but has less firepower and is a bit easier to hit.

This researches the Havock/Daring just as HMS Swift does.

 

Another such sub-branch is the Torpedo Gunboat, which could be considered a type of fourth-class cruiser below even the third-class torpedo cruisers. They are much faster and stealthier than said torpedo cruisers, but far less heavily armed. However,t hey do have considerably better smoke generators than third-class cruisers, which in turn have better stealth and agility than second class, and so on.


Yes, I realize torpedo gunboats are small cruisers, but they really don't stack up against actual cruisers at this general level, even the third-class cruisers lol all over them (e.g. Calypso-class of 1883, 2770 tons, 13.75-14.75 knots, 4x 6", 12x5"...) despite their higher speed, unless we give them destroyer balancing (i.e. great stealth, close to torpedo boats) and treat them as gun-heavy destroyers that aren't so good at using torpedoes unless by surprise. However, they can have a vision bonus of some sort to spot other non-torpedo gunboat destroyers before the DDs spot them, giving them a brief niche in these early tiers.

If needed, set the forced draught speed to be standard

TORPEDO GUNBOAT Tier 4

You research this from the Tier 3 113-Footer

Grasshopper Class (1888): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grasshopper-class_torpedo_gunboats

16.75 knots, 19.25 with forced draught, 525 tons

2x 14" tubes, 2x 14" carriages, 1x 4", 6x 3pdr

HMS_Spider.png

HMS Rattlesnake (1886) was the prototype for this class and is an obvious premium here, as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Rattlesnake_(1886), its notable difference is that Rattlesnake was known to have had a token armoured deck to keep out splinters and small shells, making it displace 559 tons.

HMS_Rattlesnake_(1886).jpg

 

TORPEDO GUNBOAT Tier 5

Sharpshooter Class (1889) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharpshooter-class_torpedo_gunboat The curvy stern of HMS Spanker (yes, really) pictured

19 knots forced draught, 735 tons

3x or 5x 14" torpedoes (arrangement unknown, variation allows balancing), 2x QF 4.7" (120mm), 4x 3pdr

As you can see, there's a generous increase in firepower, health and torpedo power, but not speed.

Spanker.png

 

TORPEDO GUNBOAT Tier 6

Alarm Class (1893) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alarm-class_torpedo_gunboat HMS Jason pictured.

18.7 knots, upgrades to 20.5 knots (HMS Speedy) 810 tons

2x QF 4.7" (120mm), 4x3pdr, 1x Gardner machine gun, 1 (bow) + 2x1 (deck) 18"

Faster, healthier, and more torpedo power than the previous tier.

By this tier, cruisers like the Blake class have 20-22 knots straight line, so this is a "knife torpedo boat face in, ambush cruisers round islands, disengage from cruisers using cover and small size to dodge at range" deal. I could be persuaded to merge this as another hull to the Sharpshooter Class, as it's supposedly just scaled up from that. You also get suppressive fire for the first time with that machine gun, assuming you're fighting someone with open gun mounts.

Hms_jason.png

 

TORPEDO GUNBOAT Tier 7

Dryad Class (1894) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dryad-class_torpedo_gunboat HMS Dryad pictured.

Circa 20 knots (as per Halcyon), 170 tons

2x QF 4.7" (120mm), 4x 6pdr, 1x Nordenfelt machine gun, 5x18" torpedo tubes (arrangement unknown), may remove two tubes (presumably fixed tubes) for mine-laying capacity (Stationary, very stealthy torpedoes).

This has some more gun power than the previous tier. The speed may still get you run down by some first-class cruisers, but on these island-rich low-tier maps your torpedoes are excellent at knifing their faces in, and they are big, less-responsive ships compared to you. You also are more agile than most cruisers, not to mention harder to hit at any noticeable range.

HMS_Dryad_(1893).jpg

From here, you research the Ardent/Zebra class at Tier 8.

This concludes the Torpedo Cruiser side-branch.

 

ALTERNATIVE Tier 10:

Cricket Class (1906) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cricket-class_destroyer HMS Cricket pictured.

27 knots, 400 tons (Deep load, 225-255t normal)

2x12pdr, 3x 18" (arrangement unknown)

50% more torpedo DPS than the other Tier 10, the B/C class, but less gun DPS, though with a unified gun battery.

HMS_Cricket_(1906)_IWM_Q_021130.jpg


ALTERNATE Tier 13

Beagle Class (1909) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beagle-class_destroyer HMS Scourge pictured.

27 knots, 874-955 tons

1x 4"L40 Mk VIII, 3x 12pdr 12cwt, 2x1 21" tubes

You lose 6 knots and a 4" gun for three 12-pounders for better overall gun DPS, if you get close enough, and larger torpedoes. 

HMS_Scourge_at_sea_(15832433805).jpg

 

DESTROYER LEADER SIDE BRANCH!

Research this from the Acasta/K Class! You may also presumably unlock this from the third class torpedo cruisers, albeit at a steep, steep price given the tiers likely to be skipped, hmm...

Destroyer Leader Tier 16

HMS Swift (1907) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Swift_(1907)

34 knots (not full load, nerf as needed), 1825 tons (2207 tons full load) (easier to spot/hit and less torp power for more gun power and speed than Laforey class)

4x1 4"L40, 1x 2pdr pom-pom, 2x 18" tubes

Compared to the other Tier 16, the Laforey class, it's larger and healthier, likely noticeably faster depending on balancing decisions, and has presumably more gun power... for consdierably less torpedo power.

HMS_Swift_(1907).JPG

 

Destroyer Leader Tier 17

Faulknor Class (1914) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faulknor-class_flotilla_leader HMS Broke pictured

32 knots, 1700 tons (1850 burthen)

6x QF 4" Mk VI (3 can fire broadside, maybe 4 ahead?), 2x2 533mm torpedoes

You can switch the guns for the British armament of 2x 4.7", 2x 4", and 2x1 pom-pom if you like having more alpha and DPS on a single broadside, but it's not as good in general melee as having the curious six-gun arrangement of two side by side ahead of the wheelhouse, two flanking it, and two on the quarter deck.

It has much better torpedo power than the Swift and may have better gun power, but is less healthy.

Compared to the M/R/S class also at Tier 18, this is a bit slower, healthier, easier to spot/hit, and does not have any heavier a gun broadside without upgrading the guns. In fact, the gun DPS would be a bit lower because it's more awkward to man and reload the guns, the way these are arranged!

Ww1pddBroke.jpg

 

Destroyer Leader Tier 18

Marksman Class and Parker Class https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marksman-class_flotilla_leaderhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parker-class_flotilla_leader HMS Ithuriel and HMAS Anzac pictured

34 knots, 1626/1700 tons respective

4x 4"L40 (upgraded hull gets 2 ahead), 1x 12pdr 12cwt (after upgrading hull you add this), 2x1 2pdr pom-pom, 2x2 533mm tubes

The hull upgrade puts two guns superfiring forward. Compared to the V/W this is heavier, has slightly worse main gun power and better secondaries.

HMS_Ithuriel.jpg

HMAS_Anzac_(AWM_300146).jpg

 

Destroyer Leader Tier 19

Admiralty V Class Leaders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_and_W-class_destroyer#Admiralty_V-class_leaders HMS Vidette pictured

34 knots, 1207 tons standard

4x QF 4" L/45 L45, 1x QF 3" 20cwt, 2x2 533mm tubes (upgrading to 2x3 as per HMS Vampire)

As you can tell, this next idea of a destroyer leader really shrank in the wash, mostly due to citing a different displacement criteria. Compared to the Modified W as the main destroyer line (which is 1550 tons full but only 1140 tons standard) this ship is HEALTHIER and has higher rate of fire, though slightly less DPS on the main guns. The longer range on the secondary gun and its higher damage per shot, however, can easily make up for this as long as you judiciously control the range of engagement against the Modified W (i.e. don't get chewed up by his 2-pounder pom-poms too much). However, torpedo power is initially lacking.

HMS_Vidette_(D48).jpg


Destroyer Leader Tier 20

Scott/Shakespeare Classes (1917/1918) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Admiralty_type_flotilla_leaderhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thornycroft_type_destroyer_leader, HMAS Stuart (Admiralty) and HMS Keppel (Thornycroft) pictured.

36 knots, 1480-1580 tons standard, 2009-2053 tons deep

5x BL 4.7" (120mm) L45, 1x 3" 20 cwt AA gun, 2x3 533mm tubes

Compared to HMS Amazon you get more gun power and health, but are more visible, a bit slower and a bit less agile. I think this could be balanced just by those, but if not, well the same Mk 1 gun on the ships fires a 5-6 RPM, which means perhaps Amazon can get 6 RPM and this can get 5.5 or similar.

HMAS_Stuart_(AWM_P01593-002).jpg

HMS_Keppel_docked_in_the_East_India_Dock

This ship also leads to Regele Ferdinand Class (Romanian Navy), Churruca Class (Spanish and Argentine Navies), and Mendoza Class (Argentine Navy)

This ship ends the Destroyer Leader side branch, and can research the A/B class at Tier 21.

 

ALTERNATE TIER 20

HMS Ambuscade (D38 commissioned 1927, also leading to the Portuguese Douro Class) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Ambuscade_(D38)

37 knots, 1192/1610 tons standard/deep

4x BL 4.7" (120mm) L45 Mk 1, 2x1 2pdr pom-pom, 2x3 533mm tubes

This is researched off the Tier 19 Modified W class, It's a lighter, more compact Amazon. Consider buffing up the torpedoes a bit. Another balancing factor is that this ship costs rather less to buy and operate than Amazon and happens to lead to the Portuguese Douro-class as well as the Tier 21 A/B class.

HMS_Ambuscade_(D38).jpg

 

 

This concludes the alternatives I have in mind/listed for now along the British Destroyer Lineage.

There are a few other connections such as the M/R/S class possibly sidegrading to the Medea class to enter the Greek destroyer line, but whatever.

Edited by Guardian54

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British Third-Class Cruisers

I'm considering making the distinction of Third-Class Cruiser and Torpedo Gunboat be that torpedoes of this era are incapable of hitting torpedo gunboats (let alone smaller craft). Because these things are fast enough and far outgun torpedo gunboats, which is a problem...

Edited by Guardian54

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I think it's 10 posts per page right? So here we go (while people are still busy reading and looking at the pictures)

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I hope the HMS Spanker photo showing its stern and curves isn't too lewd for this forum.

Edited by Guardian54

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Oh crap just learnt it's 25 comments per page. Never mind then I'll just take the first 10 and be done.

 

EDIT: Here be Japanese DDs for now:

IJN Destroyers (because Minesweepers, Gunboats, etc are too impossible to balance for me to handle, and posting too many stats, links and images is too much effort for now. Codes: DD: Default DD line, LDD = Lighter DD line,  GDD = Gun DD line (note that the Chidori, Otori and Matsu classes have higher ROF main guns than the Mutsuki's 5-6 RPM)

Please note that from Mutsuki onward, the main DD line is mostly dependent on having the best torpedoes bar none, with highest speed for longest range, largest warheads, and by far the lowest detectability. Torpedo reload rate is a primary factor in how the Akatsuki -> Hatsuharu transition is to be balanced.

Tier 5: Kotaka (1888)

Tier 6: Hayabusa (1900)

Tier 7-8 GAP

Tier 9: Murakumo/Shirakumo (1898/1902)

Tier 10: Ikazuchi/Akatsuki (1899/1901)

Tier 11: Harusame (1903)

Tier 12: Kamikaze (1905)

Tier 13-14: DDs GAP,  LDD-14 Sakura from DD-12

Tier 15: DD Umikaze (1911) from DD-12, LDD Kaba (1915) (also leads to French DD line Arabe class of same design)

Tier 16: DD Urakaze (1917), LDD Momo/Enoki (1916/1918)

Tier 17: DD Isokaze (1916), LDD Momi/Wakatake (1919/1920)

Tier 18: DD Kawakaze (from DD-17 and LDD-17)

Tier 19: GDD Chidori (rebuilt, from DD-18 or LDD-17), DD Minekaze/Kamikaze

Tier 20: GDD Otori, DD Mutsuki

Tier 21: GDD Matsu, DD Fubuki

Tier 22: DD Ayanami (from GDD-21 and DD-21)

Tier 23: DD Akatsuki

Tier 24: DD Hatsuharu

Tier 25: DD Shiratsuyu

Tier 26: Asashio

Tier 27: Kagero

Tier 28: DD Yugumo, LDD Ayanami (1958)

NOTE: Ayanami (1958) has 3x2 3"/50-calibre guns at 50 RPM each, which basically means a small-calibre shell hose that rapidly accumulates thermal damage on other ships and thus quickly creates and spreads fires on larger ships or tears holes in smaller ships. It also gets to use homing torpedoes to some degree(?). Downsides include short main battery range. The successor has better guns at range, but no heavyweight torpedoes to use.

Tier 29: GDD Akizuki 1942 (from DD-28), DD Shimakaze, LDD Murasame (1958)

Tier 30: GDD Super Akizuki (napkinwaffe), DD Super Shimakaze (napkinwaffe), LDD Akizuki 1959

Edited by Guardian54

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Wow, that's a lot of ships and a lot of work.  

I analyzed a number of these vessels when developing my World of Pre-Dreadnought system, but I used only 9 tiers as it was hard to find enough ships different enough from each other being built from about 1890 through 1914 to reliably fill up more tiers.  If you're interested you can look here for my analysis of torpedo combatants of the major powers. 

If you are trying to reach way back to the earlier ironclads, you're probably going to want the torpedo combatants to enter your tech tree somewhere midway up the tree rather than at the beginning and while Lightning was the worlds first torpedo boat, the torpedoes used at that time were so short ranged and slow that they were really ineffective against a target which was actually underway.  As such, early torpedo boats like Lightning were intended to be deployed against enemy vessels which were still in harbor rather than in the kind of battles WOWS depicts.  I'd probably start looking at the early 1890's or late 1880's when the first really effective torpedo boats emerged. 

I think with this post, you also need to be a bit careful with the whole "wall of data" approach.  I think visually you'd be more effective in putting images here in the thread and give some brief bit of background concerning the vessels as well what innovations made them more effective than their predecessors, otherwise all that data is a bit hard to digest. 

  • Cool 2

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I think anything pre-1900's would basically constitute a different game altogether.

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It wouldn't.

The ships that came out of the late 1880's and 1890's era were vessels which were earlier versions of the types we see in WOWS.  You essentially have Battleships, Cruisers and Torpedo craft.  Many of the ships of this era fought throughout WWI with the ships currently in the lower tiers (tiers 2 though about 4 or 5) of WOWS so their existence overlapped those of the ships you might be familiar with. 

Were they different?  Yes they were, Pre-Dreadnought Battleships tended to carry one 4 main battery guns, normally in two twin turrets with one forward and the other aft.  This is about 1/2 the main battery firepower of the earliest dreadnoughts, however, though they carried fewer of them, they weren't that different from the guns you might find in an early Dreadnought.  Some of these Pre-Dreadnoughts (the Semi-Dreadnoughts) also carries very heavy secondary batteries of 9.2 inch to 10 inch guns so the base WOWS drivers would have to be modified to give these ships greater control over their secondary batteries, but that's just a variation of what WOWS already possesses.  You can still use the shell and armor mechanics of the existing game and apply them successfully to the ships of this time period. 

For cruisers you have the standard protected cruisers you see early in the cruiser lines for WOWS, you'll also have smaller Scout Cruisers and Light Cruisers which tend to be faster (up to just under 30 knots) which you'll also see in the current version of WOWS.  You'll also see a new type, the Armored Cruiser (there's only one in the game right now, the US cruiser St. Louis).  These ships are better protected than the cruisers your are used to seeing in the early tiers of WOWS and they are armed with heavier guns.  In essence, these ships were like mini Pre-Dreadnoughts with similar turret arrangements, about 2/3rd the armor protection, a few knots faster and relying on a main battery of 8 to 12 inch guns.  Once again different, but not so much different from the ships already in WOWS. 

Torpedo combatants saw the development of the first destroyers which were similar to, but smaller than the DD's you see in WOWS.  In fact one of these earlier DD's is in the game, the Tier II USS Smith.  They will tend to be a bit slower, armed with single tube torpedo launchers, be harder to detect or hit and with weaker gun batteries (3 inch guns were fairly standard in most of these ships).  The mechanics of how they would operate however would be largely identical to the existing WOWS game. 

To really go to a period that WOWS existing engine couldn't be well modified for, you'd need to leave the age of Iron/Steel hulled warships and into the age of sail. You could definitely go back into the 1880's and some of the 1870's and the core engine would probably work just fine.  

Edited by BB3_Oregon_Steel
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On 2/21/2018 at 2:45 PM, BB3_Oregon_Steel said:

I analyzed a number of these vessels when developing my World of Pre-Dreadnought system, but I used only 9 tiers as it was hard to find enough ships different enough from each other being built from about 1890 through 1914 to reliably fill up more tiers.

*snip for length*

I'd probably start looking at the early 1890's or late 1880's when the first really effective torpedo boats emerged. 

I think with this post, you also need to be a bit careful with the whole "wall of data" approach.  I think visually you'd be more effective in putting images here in the thread and give some brief bit of background concerning the vessels as well what innovations made them more effective than their predecessors, otherwise all that data is a bit hard to digest. 

I was mainly going for the "+1 or even +2 MM is not a horror show" idea and practically splitting hairs to generate it. On that note I should adjust tiering around the River to Beagle/Tribal jump...

Will take your recommendations into consideration in the future.

 

I mainly put the speed, displacement (approx HP), and armament data in so people could point out, and I could see for that matter, any glaring imbalances among the ships of each tier (sometimes balanced by ROF).

The citations are there to note my sources.

Edited by Guardian54

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