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SansPeur

Some Maps are Too Small

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Richelieu on Trident.

5a89e35137ab5_smallmap.jpg.7c1087ae40fd8a6755ed42c0e5586e1b.jpg

I moved up to 6H and stopped as every red was in range.

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I think many veteran players will tell you quite the opposite.  Most maps are actually to big and only led to boring matches where people hide/snipe/run or any other unproductive way of playing.  I am not saying that there is one way of playing, but maps should encourage big close to medium range brawls between most of the players because that is fun and engaging.   

And you know what?  Wargaming agrees.  Almost every map rework has made the map smaller like tears of the cruiser.  Besides just because they are in range doesn't mean you shouldn't move forward.  I have to ask are you actually hitting anything at 25km range?  Not everyone has 25km gun range too so you should expect the map to be rework just because you have long range guns. 

 

I have a news flash for everyone on warships: YOUR MAX RANGE IS NOT YOUR OPTIMAL GUN RANGE FOR YOUR SHIP EVER!

Edited by LordOFace
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8 minutes ago, LordOFace said:

I think many veteran players will tell you quite the opposite.  Most maps are actually to big and only led to boring matches where people hide/snipe/run or any other unproductive way of playing.  I am not saying that there is one way of playing, but maps should encourage big close to medium range brawls between most of the players because that is fun and engaging.   

And you know what?  Wargaming agrees.  Almost every map rework has made the map smaller like tears of the cruiser.  Besides just because they are in range doesn't mean you shouldn't move forward.  I have to ask are you actually hitting anything at 25km range?  Not everyone has 25km gun range too so you should expect the map to be rework just because you have long range guns. 

 

I have a news flash for everyone on warships: YOUR MAX RANGE IS NOT YOUR OPTIMAL GUN RANGE FOR YOUR SHIP EVER!

Exactly this.

 

If you think you're positively influencing the match at 25km from anyone, you seriously don't understand the game you're *supposed* to be playing. More, with a ship like Richie, you must continue to move forward to have any effect at all on the match. That you fail to grasp this basic principle of the game after 4k rounds is really concerning to me, especially when statistics show that you're not by any means a bad player. Your WR is good, and your damage is good. Now, imagine what those numbers would be if you closed the range, and made more of your shots count.

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12 minutes ago, Th3KrimzonD3mon said:

Exactly this.

 

If you think you're positively influencing the match at 25km from anyone, you seriously don't understand the game you're *supposed* to be playing. More, with a ship like Richie, you must continue to move forward to have any effect at all on the match. That you fail to grasp this basic principle of the game after 4k rounds is really concerning to me, especially when statistics show that you're not by any means a bad player. Your WR is good, and your damage is good. Now, imagine what those numbers would be if you closed the range, and made more of your shots count.

While I agree that fighting at 25km isn't a great thing, what's the point of even having ships that can fire out to 25km (without even using a spotting plane)?

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It can take a long time to move from one end of certain maps to the other, BUT with the firing ranges of the ships on those maps (where you can easy hit all three caps from a single spot) it makes the maps seem far smaller than they are. Either they need to reduce the firing ranges, or make the maps larger, take your pick.

Far too many maps have spots where one ship can sit behind an island and radar the vast majority of the playing area. 

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9 minutes ago, Elegant_Winter said:

I kinda wish maps were smaller.

I don't.

There are some maps I think that too damned small, or at least too small for their tier.  I don't like ending up on Big Race or the Solomons map when I'm in a tier 5 ship.  Those maps are just too small for tier 5's.  Those maps should be max battle tier 4 maps.

When I'm playing my kamikaze, there are a lot of maps that I think are too small.  And BTW, it's not always about the raw X by Y dimensions of the map.  I find the Fault Line map to be horrifically small for my kamikaze, even though the map itself isn't really "small".  The problem with Fault Line for a stealthy DD is that there's literally no where you can go on that map where your concealment works for you.  The middle area of the map is so small (north to south) that you will be spotted by any other ship that's in the middle on your side of the map.  The center area is just too cramped.  Ands basically, the entire middle 4 rows are too damned cramped for even a Kamikaze with its concealment.  As for Solomons, you can't go to any of the 3 cap areas in a Kamikaze and not get spotted, because those general areas are also too damned cramped.  In short, DDs that rely on stealth really need more room to operate.

As for Big Race, if you're in a tier 5 cruiser, you're looking at having enough gun range that if you spawn near the NE of the map, your guns can reach any enemy cruisers that spawn on the opposite NE side, or will reach it within a precious few seconds.  That's just too close.  (This could be fixed by just moving the NE spawn locations away from the NE.)

I think that the Ocean map is either too small for its battle tier, or it should have its battle tier lowered to around tier 6 or 7.

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2 minutes ago, FleetAdmiral_Assassin said:

It can take a long time to move from one end of certain maps to the other, BUT with the firing ranges of the ships on those maps (where you can easy hit all three caps from a single spot) it makes the maps seem far smaller than they are. Either they need to reduce the firing ranges, or make the maps larger, take your pick.

Far too many maps have spots where one ship can sit behind an island and radar the vast majority of the playing area. 

I think these are all valid points.  I don't want maps to be any bigger because sailing around for 10 minutes to get in range is silly.  

The 11.7 km radar is broken op.  Is it just me or did they add radar and their ranges and have never tweaked them since?

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It's not the maps that are small, it's the oceans!

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39 minutes ago, LordOFace said:

I think many veteran players will tell you quite the opposite.  Most maps are actually to big and only led to boring matches where people hide/snipe/run or any other unproductive way of playing.  I am not saying that there is one way of playing, but maps should encourage big close to medium range brawls between most of the players because that is fun and engaging.   

And you know what?  Wargaming agrees.  Almost every map rework has made the map smaller like tears of the cruiser.  Besides just because they are in range doesn't mean you shouldn't move forward.  I have to ask are you actually hitting anything at 25km range?  Not everyone has 25km gun range too so you should expect the map to be rework just because you have long range guns. 

 

I have a news flash for everyone on warships: YOUR MAX RANGE IS NOT YOUR OPTIMAL GUN RANGE FOR YOUR SHIP EVER!

Max range?  I agree. Seems to me most players really can't hit or do much until they are 15K or closer. Some need to be a lot closer than that. Seems to me. 

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Crucis you are right to point out a fatal flaw with many of the arguements on this forum: what works at tier 5 may not work at tier 10.  Random example that people may argue.  Torpedoes may be broken op at tier 5 but they may be just the opposite at tier 10.  But usually the op will just make a blanket statement like torps are op please need.

But for the most part we are talking about tier 8-10 maps being too big.

Edited by LordOFace

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14 minutes ago, LordOFace said:

 

The Richelieu has the longest range of any VIII BB by ~4km.  Being top tier and spawning in the center there, is no need to move forward of 6H as all caps can be covered by all guns.  Moving to another location would shorten some engagement ranges, but lengthen others.

The majority of my engagements were less than 15km and I think the results show it was a good strategy.

5a89f1211e680_smallmap3.thumb.jpg.f1878fd31997c4805f7e1dc21274c69b.jpg

Having smaller maps will cause long range BBs to camp more, punish fast HE spamming cruisers, and restrict stealth DDs.

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Just now, dmckay said:

Some need to be a lot closer than that.

Some need to be LOTS closer than that; like next door LOL!

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5 minutes ago, Umikami said:

Some need to be LOTS closer than that; like next door LOL!

Lol some can only hit by ramming!

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Maps are fine. It's already frustrating to be in a Cruiser waiting several minutes for BBs to get close enough to each other for you to simply engage.

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I think the perceived map size has as much to do with firing angles as anything. If islands block fire between A and C caps (or spawn to spawn) the map will seem much larger than it may actually be, as ships will need to move more to encounter combat or to respond to strategic situations. 

It is not good map design when a battleship can set up 2 feet from its spawn and shoot at everything, even if the range makes its performance poor. You get more dynamic games when capture point coverage requires initial movement. 

It is good map design when certain locations placed quite distant from the spawns allow for firing angles on everything, especially when  movement over a few kilometers allows for protection against specific sectors (but vulnerability to others). Then, you get skilled players contesting these areas by various means and an overall more mobile game.

The map in the OP is a dynamic map for ships with limited firing range, but I can see how passive play would be encouraged in a Richelieu. I am NOT saying that slowly driving ENE would be optimal, but when it lets you get RNG shots at <20km on all three caps and ~20km shots on the enemy spawn it becomes very tempting, and often ideal for the very early game while team deployment is being determined. The 16-18km range most mid-tier ships have (with a few reaching over 20km) forces them to pick one side or the other, or to push close enough to B to be vulnerable to cruiser and torpedo fire. With that extra range, it is no longer the case. 

That map probably is a bit too "small" design wise for long-range tier 8s, but it is fine for the tiers which mostly see it. Tier 8 on that map is an edge case anyways - it is not surprising cracks are showing up there. 

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27 minutes ago, Umikami said:

Some need to be LOTS closer than that; like next door LOL!

Scharhorst is my highest tier ship. If I get 6k or closer to a red that red is generally a red who is dead if I stay cool.  DEAD RED! Got main guns, secondaries kick in, got fast torps. 3 Killing thingies. Learning how to best use her to kill other BBs. Get close to them if possible. I think this works best.  Seems to me.  She is definitely not a long range sniper. 

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10 minutes ago, dmckay said:

She is definitely not a long range sniper.

Had a guy on one of my teams yesterday tell me he was an expert sniper as he hugged the back line in his Bismark. I didn't even bother to answer something that silly.

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We all love a good mid-ranged slug fest. Most real life battles were conducted at significantly shorter ranges than what some of these battleships like to stay at (barring outliers like Warspite and Scharnhorst's freak long-range hits).

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47 minutes ago, Crucis said:

While I agree that fighting at 25km isn't a great thing, what's the point of even having ships that can fire out to 25km (without even using a spotting plane)?

It's a trap!

They're trying to get you to give your position away while you're still beyond effective firing range lol.

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2 hours ago, SansPeur said:

Richelieu on Trident.

5a89e35137ab5_smallmap.jpg.7c1087ae40fd8a6755ed42c0e5586e1b.jpg

I moved up to 6H and stopped as every red was in range.

They might be in range, but that doesn't mean you have unobstructed line of fire to them, or that you can hit them even if you do. Fuso has mondo range, but it still can't hit anything smaller than Australia past 12Km.

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Range and positioning are more important,sure you can see all ships but can you hit them with effective consistency? Long Range has only a slight advantage that reduces effective fire the more you send salvos down range. The Map will grow on you as you try to get within effective range.

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1 hour ago, LordOFace said:

Crucis you are right to point out a fatal flaw with many of the arguements on this forum: what works at tier 5 may not work at tier 10.  Random example that people may argue.  Torpedoes may be broken op at tier 5 but they may be just the opposite at tier 10.  But usually the op will just make a blanket statement like torps are op please need.

But for the most part we are talking about tier 8-10 maps being too big.

Honestly, LoFace, this is a bugaboo of mine.  If one is talking about tier 8-10, then it's on that person to say so and not assume it.  When one says "some maps are too small", there's nothing in there limiting it to high tier maps.  To me, without the qualifier, it implies that all maps are in play in the discussion. 

 

Also, just because the Richelieu has a gun range of around 25km doesn't make the maps too small.  It's just that the Richelieu's guns have too much range.  I mean, really.... why the heck does a tier 8 BB, any tier 8 BB, need a gun range of 25 km?  Heck, I'm not sure that any tier 10 BB needs that much gun range, for crying out loud!!! 

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2 hours ago, SansPeur said:

Richelieu on Trident.

5a89e35137ab5_smallmap.jpg.7c1087ae40fd8a6755ed42c0e5586e1b.jpg

I moved up to 6H and stopped as every red was in range.

You're behavior is exactly why I'd argue maps are way too big: it makes it 'safe' to just sit somewhere like a fart and snipe instead of being forced to move. Try not being a coward and tank for your team.

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